Bruce Dorskind .. a question for you

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

David's inquisition..............

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Although I suspect that Bruce and I are very different -- from writing style to politics to views on criminal sentencing (death penalty for drug dealers?) -- I don't think he did anything wrong in purchasing the card and, beyond that, believe he makes a valuable contribution to the Board.

But, I think he and others should cease the personal attacks. Otherwise, we might as well get back to politics. At least then those of us who are academically challenged might learn something about the economic crisis. Mark

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

So when did Bruce start with this "WE" stuff????

In the video above he says "I" bunches of times. I didn't catch one "WE". So if he wasn't "WEing" then, when did it start? And why??

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't think we should worry about that anymore personally...it is definitely trolling behavior and Bruce thrives on that kind of attention.

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Posted By: JimB

"This is the problem with tenure."

Hey, no need to attack tenure or professors in general. Now I need to get back to work. Carry on guys.
JimB

P.S. Count me in the camp that does not think Bruce did anything wrong at all in this case.

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Posted By: howard

That "poor, ignorant school teacher" obviously knew he had something valuable before Bruce ever contacted him. Otherwise the article through which Bruce found out about the card would never have been written.

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Posted By: Tim

A few things.

#1 - If I had something I was ignorant about and someone kept after me for months to sell it to them, I have had ample time to consult other parties about its worth before I sell it.

#2 - If the teacher only broke down at a time of need (the trip abroad) then he considered the trip for his family of equal value to the card.

#3 - I have heard so many times here and on other boards when people request a value of a card that it's only worth what you are willing to pay for it or someone is willing to buy it for at the time of sale.

#4 - Bruce did nothing deceitful as far as we know in convincing the seller that his card was worth less than what he sold it for.

#5 - Some people that have posted in this thread love to interject negativity as a means of inciting controversy. Thus allowing them what they think is the opportunity to flex their intellectual muscle. When in reality it makes them look very small minded regardless of their institutional stature.

#6 – Regardless of how many degrees you may have, it may serve you well to read Robert Fulghums’ “All I really Needed To Know I Learned In Kindergarten.”

Bruce I don’t know you and haven’t been a board member long enough to see the many sides of your personalities I have heard much about. But I appreciate your many insightful recent posts and ability to create dialog whether for or against your opinions in this forum.

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Posted By: paulstratton

"I love the smell of napalm in the morning." ...it smells like victory.

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Posted By: Mark H

I traded a 1964 Topps Rose in EXMT for 30 brand new Tony Gwynn rookies, because I knew he'd be worth more.

I didn't sell 50 Hershiser rookies at $18 each because I knew he'd be worth more.

Which story do you think I tell more often?

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Posted By: Millerhouse

I'm a long-time lurker here, seldom a writer and a long-time friend of the Dorskinds. On the topic of the Matty Boston Garter, however, I can offer an extremely unique perspective and can't resist doing so, having known the schoolteacher long before the Bruces learned that he had the card.

The schoolteacher did, indeed, buy the card at a central Pennsylvania flea market for a song, not having any idea what it was, though recognizing that it was a gorgeous, interesting card-like thing. Indeed, at the time he bought it, in the mid- to late-1970s, few people in what was then the hobby had ever seen a Boston Garter, much less a Matty. He showed it to me after purchasing it, seeking information; the best I could offer was the American Card Catalog listing. He did his best to research the card, found out what he could and published the article that brought it to the Bruces' attention.

Throughout my discussions with the schoolteacher, I made it perfectly clear to him that I'd love to acquire the card and would be willing to pay him whatever it took should he ever decide to part with it. I did not, however, hound him about it, but let him know, whenever I saw him, that I remained interested and would love to hear from him should he decide to part with it.

In or around the time that the schoolteacher found the Matty, I first met the Bruces at one of the early Philly shows. Kindred spirits in collecting interests, the Bruces and I remained in contact and became friendly after I moved to New York in 1978. To know the Bruces is to be contacted by the Bruces periodically by phone to chat about old cards, and the Matty Boston Garter (and Boston Garter cards generally) were a somewhat frequent topic. One late spring/early summer, in the mid-1980s, during one of my phone chats with the Bruces, I casually mentioned that I was about to leave the country for a three-week golfing trip to Scotland. That was when the Bruces pounced, making the offer that the schoolteacher, unable to contact me, accepted.

Upon learning of his acquisition in another phone chat after my returning, I was, of course, sickened. Had the schoolteacher been able to contact me, I would have offered twice what the Bruces paid. While no one, at that time, would have considered spending five figures for the card, it was clear to me, then, that the card was extremely rare. Few cards from that set had surfaced at all within the intervening ten years from the schoolteacher finding it (certainly no Matty). And it was perfectly clear to me, at the time, that it was worth far more than what the Bruces paid for it.

So, did the schoolteacher schnooker the flea market dealer in the first place? Not at all. Neither had any idea what the card was when the transaction occurred.

Did the Bruces schnooker the schoolteacher? Draw you own conclusions. He certainly paid less than the market would have borne. But the schoolteacher knew what he had by then. He just chose a bad means for parting with it.

I can, however, say a couple of things for sure. Had the schoolteacher waited for my return from Scotland to sell it, it would have sold for substantially more, and it would not have been resold for a killing. I'd still have it.

Best regards to all,

Dan

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Posted By: rand

now the last post was super. what this post was all about.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

I am so relieved.... In my weed smoking days I borrowed my older brothers car(Yeah Right ) and took a trip to florida from Long Island. While we were passing through the said P State, I pulled over on the side of the road to go potty. I felt convicted about going on some dude's front lawn, so I knock on the closest houses door. The gentleman invited me in without a problem to use his can.
The Only thing is, I was 14 years old at the time, so my friend Gallagher was driving... Which is why I was reading a book that my brother left underneath the front passengers side seat. Anyways, when I was done with my business at the ahmish dude's house, I bolted and left my big bro's book in his bathroom.
3 weeks later when we returned, I really thought my brother had gone stupid on me, He wanted to know where His book was? (Not a word about his car. Huh!) My Uncle's name is Christy and he wanted to know what I did with his Postcard? Whhaat? I had know idea what he was talking about, its been 30 someodd years now!
Thanks to you guys.... My mind is Now set at ease

Well, now I just need to find out from these guys called Bruces(Are they twins? I now that George Foreman named all 5 of his Sons George, is it something like that?) who he sold the card to and get it back for my big bro! Man will he be shocked, Don't ya think?


Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Dan is one of the hobby's most knowledgeable collectors.

Whilst generally under the radar he has been collecting ultra rare
pre World War I baseball cards for than 30 years. His collection
is vast in scope and deep in quality.

He is brilliant and very successful patent attorney and is far
more understated than we.

But Dan is a killer competitor. We recall bidding head to head for
a Four Base Hits into the wee small hours of the morning. The late
Don Flannagan, working for Wolfers at the time, informed each of us
who the competition was. Dan won.

Dan neglected to tell you that he made a find of 6 Boston Garter posters
while on a business trip to Atlanta. He bought them in barn for "a song"
and sold one to us a week later for $20,000. Another great Dan find is
the reason why we have two Boston Cigar Makers pins (ultra rare) in our collection.

When we would cross each other's paths at card shows, Dan brought along his
wife and she helped spot opportunities that we missed. Sometimes even we have
trouble being in two show booths at the same time.

We love to talk cards with Dan and generally have lunch once a quarter. We rarely talk
about money or value although we have shared some great stories about our finds.

Dan grew up in a small town in West Virginia. But he hass the killer instincts, albeit in
a quiet way , of a Marine General.

We hope he shares the story about the unbelievable collection which belong to a neighbor.
It too, slipped away.

As for Matty, we always regret selling it (even if we received a million dollars)- but it was
a bad time in our life. Fortunately we still have an uncut sheet of Boston Garters and a number
of other singles= as well as an array of store advertising.

For those of you who want to truly learn about the early history of baseball cards,
and here stories about incredible finds, there is no better source than Dan

All the best


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: rand

hello dan, please share some great stories

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Posted By: barrysloate

Great story Dan and Bruce. I didn't know that part of it.

Hey Dan, hope you are well, and you should post more often. You know more about vintage baseball cards than just about anyone around.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Thank you very much, Dan, for the interesting and quite revealing story.

None of us here--myself included--had any idea when the Bruces purchase took place, and therefore had not a clue as to what the "fair market value" of the card was. But, notwithstanding, many saw fit to jump to the Bruces defense, claiming that they paid market value.

We now know that is not true:

"Did the Bruces schnooker the schoolteacher? Draw you own conclusions. He certainly paid less than the market would have borne.' (Emphasis added.)

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Posted By: peter ullman

Very entertaining video...and nice accompanying story to go with it.

This hobby is filled...even littered...with cutthroat, type A personalities...looking to take advantage of those less knowledgable...with less $$$...with the goal of obtaining cards or memorabilia for a less than market price.

This is the way the hobby has always been...and always will be! In fact...as prices have fluctuated in the almost 30 years I've been collecting...this has remained a constant.
Let's accept this fact...as sad as it may be...and move on.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

David,

One person stating they would have been willing to pay more for an item does not mean they are suddenly the "market."

Instead of continually slamming Bruce (or Jeff or Jim, etc., etc.) why not do some actual research and give us some sales records of Boston Garter cards that sold in that time period and maybe we can get an idea of what the "market" could or should have been for this card. Even if you only find records of commons that sold, we can probably figure out a reasonable price for this card based on that.

Bruce paid less than Dan would have paid, but did he pay more than most others would have? How can we know? He said he thought it was worth $1,000 and he paid $1,400. Would you have paid more than $1,400? You can't just assume that every single person willing to pay more was going to know about and have access to the seller and his card. It wasn't an auction.

I have other thoughts on this but as I am typing I just realized that you have now extracted posts from me that have come to the defense of both Bruce Dorskind and Jim Crandell.

Look what you've done to me!!!

-Ryan

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Posted By: bruce Dorskind

Once again the Nutty Professor adds his silly commentary

He twists words and pontificates with the best of them

We simply offered the" poor lonely teacher "the cost of the
trip. We were creative- something a second rater physicist
could never grasp...but then again he earned his undergraduate
degree at a second rate university.

It was, as everyone knows, the teacher's choice to accept or not accept our offer.
We had knowledge of Dan's interest but certainly he was smart enough not
share his offer with us or we would have "certainly attempted to top it.

Yes, we knew Dan was traveling and it was a chance to beat him
to punch...and why not...we and Dan are friends but we certainly
compete for cards

David is simply jealous that he did not make the deal. He will rant
and rave until the cows come home.

But alas - with all that Jazz up a Skidmore he is singing the wrong tune
He knows it, the world knows it...and we expect that the University
will realize how many countless hours he wastes attacking us on the web
rather than doing his work. Perhaps, they will revoke his tenure...
that would be even more satisfying than finding another
Matthewson Boston Garter.


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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Posted By: jay wolt

"and we expect that the University
will realize how many countless hours he wastes attacking us on the web
rather than doing his work. Perhaps, they will revoke his tenure...
that would be even more satisfying than finding another
Matthewson Boston Garter"

Just cause a guy disagrees with you
you would enjoy if he got fired over it?
Man, that's cold!

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Peter, the only one here--other than the Bruces--familiar with the card at the time says, not only that he would have paid more, but that the Bruces paid "less than the market would have borne."

I'm willing to bow to Dan's expertise.

And Bruces, I don't collect cards, and I don't collect NY Giant memorabilia.

So I'm hardly jealous.

(And it doesn't take much time at all to point out who and what you really are.)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

"Just cause a guy disagrees with you
you would enjoy if he got fired over it?
Man, that's cold!"

And ironic....but perhaps the irony was intended?

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Posted By: barrysloate

David- you're going too far with this. Bruce made an offer, Dan would have made a better offer. So what?

Every time I participate in an auction and find myself outbid, does that suggest I am trying to cheat the auction house?

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Barry--what part of Dan's statement that the Bruces paid less than market value don't you understand?

It's not that they paid less than Dan would have, but that they used a cheap trick to entice their mark into selling for less than a fair price. (I consider market value to be a fair price.)

And yes, loads of others do it, too.

But it's really nothing to brag about in a made-for-collectors video.

As I said before, just be careful when dealing with the Bruces.

Finis.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce and Dan both admitted that not only did they not know the true value of the card, they weren't even sure what it was. And given the time frame, there was no source material available to look it up.

Let's say the card would have sold at the time for $2500 in an auction, and Bruce offered his $1400 for it. I don't think it's entirely unfair. I've made offers for less than market value, it's just business.

I understand Dan would have paid more, but that doesn't make Bruce's offer unethical.

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Posted By: rand

i dont know who you are, you have added ZERO to my honest attempt for an interesting read. you want to bash bruce or someone else, start you own thread. this is bullsh!!! because i asked the question, we got a great video, an amazing response from someone that knew the story well, and possibly some more good stuff. instead i have to sift through a bunch of stupid posts responding to you. have some class, manners, and move on.

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Posted By: PC

"And Bruces, I don't collect cards"

Not that we didn't figure it out already, but that is confirmation of trolling.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

Hardly.

I collect vintage NY Yankee memorabilia with an emphasis on the period 1903-1927. I have always been willing to freely share both my expertise in that area, and--unlike the Bruces--photos of items in my collection, as a look to the memorabilia side of this board will show.

Like many memorabilia collectors, I keep an eye on this side of the board, too, as there is a bit of an overlap.

For example, is this a card?



And rand, threads dont "belong" to their creators.

Further, the textbook definition of "trolling" would be satisfied by any one of a large number of the Bruces' deliberately provocative threads.

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Posted By: rand

David, add something to MY thread or get lost, at the moment no one has any respect for you here.

ps.. very neat peice, thx for showing it

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Posted By: Jim VB

David,

"Ownership"? No. But from the forum rules that we have all agreed to:

<<We also ask that members do not "hijack" the threads of other members as this does a disservice to those interested in that particular subject matter and is especially discourteous to the original author of that thread. >>

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Posted By: David Atkatz

You're right, Jim. I certainly never meant to hijack the thread. I felt I was defending my (admittedly unpopular) point of view.

So I'll end that right here.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

"Sometimes even we have
trouble being in two show booths at the same time."

See, Bruce has a sense of humor!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

If Dan really would've paid more for the card why at no point before that in all those years did he even make an offer for it? If he did make an offer then why would the teacher be shocked at an offer half as much as he would be willing to spend.....unless of course Dan never made a decent offer and he too was trying to get the card from him for cheaper than it was worth. His story doesnt add up,sounds like he was willing to supposedly put one over on the teacher too but didnt get his chance to and then afterwards says he would've offered twice as much. I can say I would've offered him $5k if I knew about the card now,doesnt mean its true just because I write it long after it was even possible.If I was really willing to pay a certain amount for a card I really wanted then I would make that offer at some point

So now we know this person knew they had something good and more than one person really wanted it from them,sounds like if they sold it for a lower amount then they could've got they have no one to blame but themselves. Im sure the Bruce's didnt surround him and threaten him to sell the card for vacation money so he easily could've waited till he got back. He's a teacher,Im sure he was smart enough to know to bring enough money with him on vacation beforehand and not go on vacation till he had that money.

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Posted By: leon

"And rand, threads dont "belong" to their creators."

I will concur with what Jim said above.....the creator of the thread does own the thread, in essence. I support your right to express your opinions, per the forum rules, but you might be careful about telling folks what belongs to them on this forum.....take care

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Posted By: JimB

Boston Garters are so scarce that there is not an established market value today, in the internet age of increased access to information and multiple public auctions. What is the market value of a Matty BG today? Nobody knows! $1400 was a hell of a lot of money for a baseball card in 1978! I think T206 Wagners were going for around 3k then. Bruce does not seem like he was cheating the guy. And the guy knew what he had. He had at least two serious buyers expressing interest for years. When the right offer came at the right time, he sold it. No crime was committed. Nothing unethical happened.

David, I think you have other issues with Bruce and you are displacing your anger about that onto this situation. There is my pop-psychology analysis of this situation.
JimB

P.S. Let's all lay off the attacks on professors as a general category. Some of the greatest people I know are professors. Thankfully we have great educators in this country who are willing to work for a small fraction of what they can make in the business world or private sector in order to pass on their knowledge to the next generation. It is not only professors who "waste" their time on baseball card websites.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

What's the under/over on how many times David has been divorced?

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Posted By: Millerhouse

"If Dan really would've paid more for the card why at no point before that in all those years did he even make an offer for it? If he did make an offer then why would the teacher be shocked at an offer half as much as he would be willing to spend.....unless of course Dan never made a decent offer and he too was trying to get the card from him for cheaper than it was worth. His story doesnt add up,sounds like he was willing to supposedly put one over on the teacher too but didnt get his chance to and then afterwards says he would've offered twice as much."

With all due respect, comments like these are the reason that I find it much more pleasant to read and not participate by posting. How dare you, whoever you are, not knowing me, suggest that I was trying to "put one over on the teacher?" The fact is that the fellow had become a friend of mine and had expressed no interest in parting with the card. I had made it perfectly clear to him that, should he ever change his mind, I'd be more than interested in buying it. To me, however, there are more important things in life than pestering a friend for a baseball card. (The Bruces clearly had a much different relationship with him.)

Also, before I sign off, one other post suggested doing some research into the fair market value of this set of Boston Garters in the mid-'80s. Good luck. There might have been one sold by then, to my knowledge, and that through Ted Hake's pin and memorabilia auction. This set is still so rare that I'm not convinced that individual copies of all sixteen cards have yet surfaced. (A number have appeared that have been torn apart from multi-card sheets, such as the sheet owned by the Bruces, but I doubt that singly issued copies, such as the Bruces' former Matty, have been located for all sixteen. I only have two: Collins and Lajoie.)

Dan

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Posted By: David Atkatz

<<What's the under/over on how many times David has been divorced?>>

You have a reason to get this personal, Jeff, or are you just a complete schmuck?

(For those counting, this is only the second time I've called someone a name. And the first time in Yiddish.)

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Posted By: Jerry

When a Person Constantly tells you he's not interested in selling a certain card, I don't think it's Proper or benefitual to start throwing offers out to him.
Just let him know your interested and would like a shot at it if he decides to sell it.
Others may think different.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, that's some ironically thin skin you have there. I guess by your answer I'll take the over on whatever number you want to throw out.

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Posted By: David Atkatz

I see it's the latter, Jeff.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, I guess it's better for your wife(s) and the dog that you get your anger out here.

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Posted By: JimB

Jerry,
We don't know what the seller of the BG Matty said to Bruce. I have pursued cards from an original find in a similar way. There was one card in a find from a few years ago that I particularly wanted. I made a fair market offer on the card. The seller said he was not ready to sell at the time but I could feel free to check in periodically. I did check in a couple of times per year. I always prefaced them with the qualification that if I was bothering him at all, I would stop. He always assured me that was not the case. After several years, he eventually decided to sell the card. I believe(d) I actually paid over fair market value for the card at the time. I don't see anything wrong with enthusiastic pursuit of rare cards if it is done with tact and respect.
Jim

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'm tempted here to give Jeff some material for his radio show tonight.

edited: whoops..forgot the smiley.

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Posted By: Scott Levy

I don't even understand what the argument against Bruce would be here? In the 1970s $1400 was an absolute TON of money for any baseball card. Sure the card sold for a lot more, but any card purchased at that time would be worth much more today. My dad purchased a T206 Cobb in the mid 1980's which we just sold for almost 20x the purchase price, was that unethical? Of course not, it is just a reflection of how prices of vintage cards have appreciated over time.

At the time of Bruce's purchase there was no established market for a card such as that. Bruce offered a price and it was eventually accepted by the seller. If today Bruce purchased that card for $1400 I would at least understand the moral argument....but I don't see even a shred of impropriety here.

Regards,
Scott

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Posted By: dan mckee

I agree, I am not a Bruces fan but I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he did here. At worst, maybe they could have been annoying at trying to get the Matty but we don't even know that. I am going to say the Bruces are in the clear here and did nothing wrong at all. Great card Bruce, Dan.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

David, if nothing else you've managed to generate the greatest outpouring of support for Bruce he has ever garnered on this board. I'm tempted to invite him to that lunch I owe Barry for some bet he won. In his giddy mood, he might treat us both.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

when you say 'we' don't know that, do you mean there's more than one of you in the thread?

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Thanks, David, for sharing your card/photo. Pretty neat.

But, enough acrimony already, from everyone. I hate to sound like a 5th grade school marm (so I probably won't continue to beat this dead horse), but who needs it?

Mark

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce is welcome to join us.

May I make a suggestion? Does everyone still need to call Bruce "the Bruces?" Haven't his recent posts moved him up a notch in the pecking order? Unless he comes forward and says he prefers to be recognized in the plural, I suggest we use "Bruce."

Just a suggestion.