Demmitt / O'Hara / Cobb - a survey of T206s

[FrankWakefield]

Gentlemen,

There's another thread that talks about the merits of swapping a T206 O'Hara St. Louis for a green Cobb.

It seems to me that there are fewer of the O'Hara's and Demmitt's, than the green Cobbs, that when I started collecting the white border tobacco cards the Demmitt's and O'Hara's cost more than a green Cobb, but that now green Cobbs cost more. And I attribute that to Cobb being a top tier HOFer, this being a card contemporary with his playing days, and more folks being after one of those than there are folks after Demmitt or O'Hara because they're trying for a 520 set, or more...

Hence the poll. Thank you for participating, I look forward to seeing the results and your thoughts.

[FrankWakefield]

I think the results will show that more of us here have Cobb cards than both Demmitt and O'Hara; and that more folks have a green Cobb than have both Demmitt and O'Hara.

[Drew]

Good Poll Frank
I have both Demmitt and O'Hara cards also two green Cobb's.
drew

[Danny Smith]

I have all three. Coincidentally there was a dealer at the chicago show yetsreday who sold a very nice stl demmitt from an original family collection that is new to the hobby. He also had a Ohara Stl from the same collection.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Danny Smith

I have all three. Coincidentally there was a dealer at the chicago show yetsreday who sold a very nice stl demmitt from an original family collection that is new to the hobby. He also had a Ohara Stl from the same collection.

Curious where the family was from-was it St. Loo or elsewhere?

[CMIZ5290]

I have neither of the 2 tough st. Louis cards, but i have a green cobb psa 8oc. One of my jewels!

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Curious where the family was from-was it St. Loo or elsewhere?

Hello - It was St Louis and saw them! - Bought the Demmit! Good buy, it was too good to pass up - there goes my tav refund.

J.D. Heckathorn had the set, he's a regular at the Chicago shows. Great to deal with, fair, part-time collector - he got the cards from a family in the STL area. The O'Hara was lower grade, short miscut .. but the Demmit is a solid good looking 3, may get a 4.

[Danny Smith]

Ed,

I was standing next to you when you bought them. Great buy in my opinion. Totally agree that it could be a 4.

Danny

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by Danny Smith

Ed,

I was standing next to you when you bought them. Great buy in my opinion. Totally agree that it could be a 4.

Danny

Danny, ha! That was you..?! Small world! Thanks - I thought so .. I have the set minus the "big 6" in this case, figured I'd get a Demmit and OHara STL someday but wasn't holding my breath to run out lay down $3K+ for them either. I came to drop off some cards for grading, look around, laugh at Levi's white top hat t-shirt and shorts and leave :-) .. Next thing you know, there goes the tax refund :-)

Thanks for letting me know on the post. So many people here I've never met, I'd be surprised how many you'd bump into at the show without knowing!

[Jason Carota]

I have a red Cobb, but I don't have a green Cobb or the St. Louis cards.

[kllrbee]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

Danny, ha! That was you..?! Small world! Thanks - I thought so .. I have the set minus the "big 6" in this case, figured I'd get a Demmit and OHara STL someday but wasn't holding my breath to run out lay down $3K+ for them either. I came to drop off some cards for grading, look around, laugh at Levi's white top hat t-shirt and shorts and leave :-) .. Next thing you know, there goes the tax refund :-)

Thanks for letting me know on the post. So many people here I've never met, I'd be surprised how many you'd bump into at the show without knowing!

Good find Ed, would have ran into you at the show too, but had to work. Maybe next time.
Congrats on the Demmitt.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by kllrbee

Good find Ed, would have ran into you at the show too, but had to work. Maybe next time.
Congrats on the Demmitt.

Thanks - will post on the pick-up thread when I get it back (gave to SGC right away). Plan to be at National here in August, the Donald E Stephens is only about 5 miles from me.

[jcmtiger]

I have all 4 Cobbs, my green is an SGC70 with large borders. Don't have the other cards.

Joe

[wonkaticket]

All 4 Cobbs and Demmit and O'Hara.

All 3 are tough in there own way..finding a centered Green Cobb is a lot tougher than one would think.

As for Demmitt & O'Hara not easy to find but can be done. However trying to find anything clean VGEX or better is super tough IMO. Look at most peoples set or near sets and for the most part you will see these cards well below the avg. grade vs. the other cards that they have.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

finding a centered Green Cobb is a lot tougher than one would think.

That's true. And you seem to have found a real beauty.

[tedzan]

Approximately 95 % of the Green Cobb cards that have the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center as mine is (shown here). If centering
of this T206 Cobb is important to you, then look for a PIEDMONT 350, or SOVEREIGN 150, or SWEET CAPORAL 150/350, or OLD MILL,
or Brown HINDU..........Note..SOVEREIGN 350 does not exist.









TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

In regards to Green Cobb not so sure on the 95% number perhaps you meant for the most part or in your experience unless you have add 100% of all P150 Cobb’s...

As for Brown Hindu unless you found something we all should know about including yourself I would know if they are centered or not as I’m pretty sure they don’t exist. I even think you agree.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=127039

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...red+hindu+cobb

Besides your list here are some other reasons for my thinking on them.

I know of or have heard of the single examples of the Bat On Green Port that are in a private collection. I’m very inclined to believe these are re-backed cards. I think these were from the Gary Moser days of card re-backs. Gary Moser also sold other cards such as Green Cobb with a Red Hindu back LOL…and the Red Port with a Drum card that was another proven re-back that the Levi’s got scammed on.

Let’s think about this at least a dozen Johnson Ports or Young Ports but only one of bat on and green Cobb’s.

In almost 12-15 years not a single Cobb green or bat on has surfaced? Not one?

Anyways we can chat in detail at Oakes look forward to seeing you.

Cheers,

John

P.S. Don’t forget to bring that new sweet AB460 looking forward to flipping thru.

[FrankWakefield]

Thank you to all who have responded to the poll. And thanks for responding to the thread.

As I post this, 102 folks participated in the poll.

27/102 or 26%, of the folks responding have Demmitt and O'Hara.
48/102, or 47% of the folks responding have a green Cobb.


That's along the lines of what I predicted, that more of us here would have a green Cobb than would have both Demmitt and O'Hara.

Of course Cobb being a top tier HOFer isn't the only reason that would be so. Another reason would be that there are fewer Demmitt's and O'Hara's out there.

Still, it seems to me that a green Cobb sells for more than a Demmitt or an O'Hara. So that isn't driven just by the supply of cards out there, but by a greater demand for the more plentiful green Cobb card.

[tedzan]

YOU PASSED THE TEST !

I threw that "Brown HINDU" Cobb out there to see how long it would take before someone caught me on this ?

I took 2 hrs and 19 mins.....very slow response.

Yes, I have previously posted that I don't think ATC Factory #649 (Rochester, NY) ever inserted a T206 Cobb,
or a T205 Cobb in their HINDU cigarette packs. See these threads......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...red+hindu+cobb

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...red+hindu+cobb


In the Summer of 1911, Factory #649 finally included Cobb (T201 cards) in their MECCA packs.

Anyhow, I'm pleased that you caught it. But, I'm not certain what you meant by this comment. Please clarify ?

" In regards to Green Cobb not so sure on the 95% number perhaps you meant for the most part or in your
experience unless you have add 100% of all P150 Cobb’s..."


Regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

I believe a Red Cobb - Red Hindu should exist. There were valid reasons to be skeptical of the one that sold at auction but it's my belief it is a good front back combo.

[wonkaticket]

Tim,

I agree Red Cobb is a super print so it could be out there.

The last one due to the connection to the previous owner and dare I say winner were questionable at best.

So if a Red Hindu Red port of Cobb popped up and was looked over by multiple folks to be real that is a card we may see in our collecting lifetimes.

Cheers,

John

[tedzan]

It's my opinion that every T206 card, that American Lithographic printed 100+ years ago, has been seen in these past 50 years by veteran Tobacco
card collectors (and new collectors who surf the internet). This includes the Joe Doyle error card and the Red Cobb/Ty Cobb card.

The Joe Doyle error was known to a few, prior to Larry Fritsch revealing his card in the early 1980's. Anyone, who was familiar with Senator Richard
Russell's boyhood tobacco card collection (on display at the Univ. of Georgia) would have seen the Joe Doyle error card. Furthermore, they would've
also seen in this collection the Ty Cobb back Cobb card.

So, I do not think we will see any more heretofore unknown (normal issue) T206's. The obvious absence of any HINDU backed Ty Cobb cards in both
the T205 set and T206 set is not a mere coincidence. For unknown reasons, there was some sort of "taboo" between Factory #649 and Cobb.

Why do I think this ? Consider the following......

(a) .... The Red Cobb is the most prolifically printed white-bordered subject. This Cobb is found with no less than 24 different T206 backs....plus T213,
T214, and T215 backs.

(b) .... Surveys of the various T206 backs have proven that the Red Cobb was Double-Printed with respect to certain brands.

(c) .... The T205 Cobb is found with 8 different backs in this issue.

Yet, still NONE of the five Cobb's in these two Tobacco card issues have been found with any authentic HINDU backs.

Tell me John, is all this just serendipitous ?

I don't think so. By design, Mr. Cobb and HINDU are mutually exclusive.



FRANK W

There is approx. a 2-to-1 ratio of Green Cobb responses to Demmitt & O'Hara responses in your survey. There are several of us who have 2, 3, or more
Green Cobb cards in our T206 collections. But, our vote counts for only one. So, I just wanted to point out that there are most likely 2000 Green Cobb
cards in circulation. While there are probably no more than 400-500 Demmitt or O'Hara cards out there.
But, I would guess you are aware of this.

TED Z

[FrankWakefield]

Ted... you rascal.

Thank you for doing the math of that for me. I was in a daze, thinking how selfish it is of some folks to have more than one green Cobb. Of the 520 'attainable' T206s, there are 2 that I've never owned, and one of those is the green Cobb. Some folks are just greedy...

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

For unknown reasons, there was some sort of "taboo" between Factory #649 and Cobb.

TED Z

This is a conspiracy theory that like many other conspiracy theories ignores facts.

[CMIZ5290]

I realize there is an extreme rarity concerning demmitt and o'hara, but we are talking about comparing the collectibility of 2 medicore players with ty cobb! Not to mention the astronomical difference in smr prices. A psa 8 green cobb has an smr of $48k and climbing( a recent one with bill g brought almost 70k!) while demmitt and o'hara check in with smr values of $27,500. What again were we trying to debate on this thread or another thread? swapping o'hara for cobb? i don't think so.

[wonkaticket]

“Hey Wonka….YOU PASSED THE TEST ! I threw that "Brown HINDU" Cobb out there to see how long it would take before someone caught me on this ? I took 2 hrs and 19 mins.....very slow response.”

Ted really? Come on just say I made a typo or a mistake…LOL its ok we all do it. Do you really expect me to think that this was some sort of snatch the pebble from my hand grasshopper T206 test for us little folks? I think your self appointed T206 expert status is going to your head ol’ buddy.

What I meant by the comment below I thought was clear…but happy to explain in more detail.

" In regards to Green Cobb not so sure on the 95% number perhaps you meant for the most part or in your experience unless you have add 100% of all P150 Cobb’s..."

In order to make a claim that any percentage of something is off center by any number or avg. would insinuate that you have seen 100% of something. How could that be with Green Cobb port you haven’t seen them all have you? I think some numbers and percentages get thrown around on here too much. Much of this information is taken for gospel by our newer collectors that’s why IMO we need to be more careful with information that is put on lists and listed as fact etc.

As for the reasons on why certain Cobb’s were left off Hindu’s printing runs it’s anyone’s guess. I will say that for the record it’s usually the simplest reason vs. any crazy theory of conspiracies etc.

In my business I make and produce many items, of which premium items are a big part of my business. Anytime I look at these cards I try to put my current set of production schedules from today back to 1909.

My take certain cards were not printed because the print house was simply not told too, they didn’t have the artwork or keep that close of track as to what had been printed. I have things get missed or lost off productions today in the age of computers and with dozens of SKU’s not 500+ SKU’s. It’s not surprising at all that some cards were missed, messed up or left out.

At the end of the day these guys in 1909 had one goal deliver insert premiums fish, flags, flowers, butterflies or baseball players to be shoved in packs. I would assume business ran the same back then. “I need the line to run and don’t really care what gets shoved in the packs as long as packs of smokes leave this factory to their destinations on time with some sort of promised premium enclosed.”

I’m not too sure the ATC was sweating or asking “Hey did we remember to include that Green Cobb or Cy Young….you know the one with the hand showing in this run?”

Just my take.

Cheers,

John

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I realize there is an extreme rarity concerning demmitt and o'hara, but we are talking about comparing the collectibility of 2 medicore players with ty cobb! Not to mention the astronomical difference in smr prices. A psa 8 green cobb has an smr of $48k and climbing( a recent one with bill g brought almost 70k!) while demmitt and o'hara check in with smr values of $27,500. What again were we trying to debate on this thread or another thread? swapping o'hara for cobb? i don't think so.

Kevin agree to a point, when is the last time you saw a PSA 8 or higher of Demmitt and O'Hara go off. Fire one of those up and watch the guys with PSA 8 higher sets light those cards up I think you will be surprised.

I put no faith in SMR's either folks are all about quoting SMR prices on the rise, but the same folks never point out when cards sell for half of what they sold for prior. Many high grade T206’s including Cobb Green in PSA 8 etc. have sold years later for half price or worse.

At the end of the day I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again these are worth what somebody is willing to pay you at the time of sale regardless of SMR or past auctions.

Cheers,

John

[CMIZ5290]

John- point taken.

[tedzan]

I'm still trying to understand your thinking here......
" In order to make a claim that any percentage of something is off center by any number or avg. would insinuate that you have seen 100%
of something. How could that be with Green Cobb port you haven’t seen them all have you? I think some numbers and percentages get
thrown around on here too much. Much of this information is taken for gospel by our newer collectors that’s why IMO we need to be more
careful with information that is put on lists and listed as fact etc. "

And, I'm not trying to be a "wise-guy". But, for argument's sake let's say there are approx. 2000 Green Cobb's in circulation. Of these 2000,
500 of them are PIEDMONT 150 Cobb's.

So, are you telling me that unless I have seen all 500 of these PIEDMONT 150 Cobb's, that I cannot make a % judgement with respect to
their centering ?

I will tell you that I have seen at least 100 of these PIEDMONT 150 Cobb's; and, that sample is more than I need to make a determination
that this particular Cobb will consistently be found off-center to the top....as mine is.

Do professional polling company's have to sample 100 Million people to determine how they are going to vote ? They usually sample 1000
people when they take a poll and their resulting accuracy is usually within +/- 5%.




TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted,

I too have held my fair share of T206 Green Cobb's nobody is saying that most P150 are not found OC to the top a lot of them are. I have 3 right now with the same cut as yours. What I am saying is to make a judgment that approx. 95% are found that way is reaching a bit or perhaps pulling numbers from thin air.

Which is ok over beers but this board and the info presented should be a bit more concrete if you will IMO.

Also what you have personally handled is not an entirely accurate census for the entire collecting collective as a whole. If we always went off one or two collectors experiences were to base any avgs. the whole thing would be really messed up IMO.

Anyone can use numbers..I could say that 64.2% of folks here think you made up the 95% number on the spot...see how that works.

Here is a not so OC Cobb right now on the Bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-TY-COB...item33655016ac

Cheers,

John

[tedzan]

OK guys......here are 8 green Cobb's with PIEDMONT 150 backs that are listed on ebay......CHECK THEM OUT !

If there were more examples of these PIEDMONT 150 Cobb's, the story would continue to remain the same.

I guess some people here think I pull these numbers out of the air and make up T206 stories


http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Ty-Cob...-/220288300436

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Ty-Cobb-Por...-/130413105728

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-Ty-...-/130497217597

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Ty-Cob...-/220552474347

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Tobacc...-/370464979329

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-TY-COB...-/190512374081

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Ty-Cob...mZ320654126157

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-Piedmont-Ty...-/320650424267



TED Z

[wonkaticket]

Ted you're still missing the point...

A dozen Cobbs on Ebay and even the one I posted are not a total sampling of a hobby and it's cards, nor is your single collecting hsitory. Even seeing 100+ Cobb's how do you know unless you have owned them all you were not seeing the same cards repeated in your sampling. The numbers just are that, made up based on your views/experiance they are not fact and when presented as fact that's what I'm pointing out issue with.

"So, are you telling me that unless I have seen all 500 of these PIEDMONT 150 Cobb's, that I cannot make a % judgement with respect to
their centering ?"

Yes in a short you can't or should not. You can if you want but the number is nothing more than a guess. And your comment was not presented as a guess it was presented as fact. See below.

"Approximately 95 % of the Green Cobb cards that have the PIEDMONT 150 back are off-center as mine is (shown here)."

To say 95% of all P150 Cobb's are OC based on your own collecting history is not making up stories from thin air but more like pulling them from you Brown background. (Card Reference.)

Cheers,

John

[FrankWakefield]

This has been on the board 5 days.


35 Demmitt cards reported.

30 O'Hara cards reported.

50 green Cobb cards (of various centerings) reported.




More of us have green Cobb cards. The Demmitt and O'Hara cards are less plentiful. But about 20 years ago, or so, the green Cobb's market value reached parity with the Demmitt's and O'Hara's, and a bit after that the market value exceeded that of the D's and O's. And that's how it stands today.

So the relative value of the cards is driven more by the demand, Cobb being a top level Hall of Famer, than by the small supply. I'd think fewer folks strive for a set of 520 or more these days, too.


Thank you to everyone for your participation and interest.

[CMIZ5290]

Frank- i totally agree with your analysis. The bottom line is cobb is an elite hall of famer, and the green back is very scarce in high grade. I believe there are only 7 or 8 psa 8's ( 2 of those have qualifiers) and none higher.