That Cicotte CJ 14 at Love the Game: What's Up?

[GregMitch34]

Rather amazing, almost two weeks from close, that a little old Cicotte SGC 2.5 Cracker Jack 14 is already at $2400 (with juice). Now it's true the Cicottes are among the somewhat more scarce CJ 14s but still...the appeal seems to be that it is a fantastic example for the grade, with the grade pulled down only by a rather strange but large something-or-other on the lower border...so it has a NM or better look--but still there's that booger on the bottom... "buy the card, not the holder" fits on the one hand but then there's a rather blatant flaw on the card right on front...something going on that I'm missing?

Like I said, the Cicotte is a fairly tough card but still...

[bobbyw8469]

Please see my thread involving PWCC Roger Maris rookie cards for more clarification about this phenomenon!

[Jobu]

Definitely not a CJ expert, but given the description perhaps there are a few people who would crack the holder and try to pick (soak) the booger. If that thing comes off I would guess the grade of this card doubles even if the booger left a stain. A big gamble no doubt.

[GregMitch34]

I've just discovered that same card--then graded an SGC 30--went for about $1000 at another auction not long ago. Obviously got re-graded but only got a tiny bump. Yet price has more than doubled with plenty of time left....Hey, I have a Cicotte PSA 3 that's just as nice...

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

I've just discovered that same card--then graded an SGC 30--went for about $1000 at another auction not long ago. Obviously got re-graded but only got a tiny bump. Yet price has more than doubled with plenty of time left....Hey, I have a Cicotte PSA 3 that's just as nice...

Consign it then.

[3-2-count]

Greg the auction it was in that you mention "not long ago" was actually nearly 2 years ago. You of all people should know the value on 14 CJ's has sky rocketed since then.

As Robert states consign yours as well and reap the rewards of surging CJ's!

[GregMitch34]

I just found it amusing that they re-submitted to SGC and just got a half-point bump...

Yeah, I should consign but I was very disappointed with what my top-graded Marquard just got at REA...

[3-2-count]

Greg, Sorry to hear your 14 Marquard didn't bring the $ that you were expecting. A card is worth what collectors are willing to pay. In the 14 Cicotte case it seems it has the attention of at least a couple players that are in the 14 CJ market.

We shall see where this one ends when it has it's day. Be well.......

[vintagewhitesox]

Wow, that's a pretty healthy price!
Wonder if these CJs will sustain popularity. Interesting to see them jump in the recent months.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

I just found it amusing that they re-submitted to SGC and just got a half-point bump...

Yeah, I should consign but I was very disappointed with what my top-graded Marquard just got at REA...

It brought 5k after juice. That doesn't sound that bad to me.... Were you hoping for 10k?

[GregMitch34]

Leon, 6-7000 anyway--REA itself did not give any estimate with the item, which was rare, signaling they didn't know what the ceiling was, either. That always gets your hopes up. The next highest PSA for the card was a 5, so you'd think the registry guys would love it. I know Marquard is not a key HOFer and that is one factor, but still. Also, as I noted here early on, and others agreed, the color printing of the REA catalog was very poor.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Leon, 6-7000 anyway--REA itself did not give any estimate with the item, which was rare, signaling they didn't know what the ceiling was, either. That always gets your hopes up. The next highest PSA for the card was a 5, so you'd think the registry guys would love it. I know Marquard is not a key HOFer and that is one factor, but still. Also, as I noted here early on, and others agreed, the color printing of the REA catalog was very poor.

The color printing in the catalog had 0 to do with final pricing, imo. I can't imagine a serious collector not looking at the scans online. BTW, I think the '14 prices have cooled somewhat very recently. We sold a few in our last auction and the prices were good but not quite what they have been lately. A lot of them have come out recently with the spike in prices, lowering the prices somewhat. ....I think your card got a pretty healthy price but it wasn't mine so I understand .....Just my opinion.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

The color printing in the catalog had 0 to do with final pricing, imo. I can't imagine a serious collector not looking at the scans online. BTW, I think the '14 prices have cooled somewhat very recently. We sold a few in our last auction and the prices were good but not quite what they have been lately. A lot of them have come out recently with the spike in prices, lowering the prices somewhat. ....I think your card got a pretty healthy price but it wasn't mine so I understand .....Just my opinion.

Agreed. The idea that the paper catalog somehow depressed prices is a bit crazy. No one would bid on an item without seeing it online anyway -- you don't have a choice unless you're bidding by phone.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Leon, 6-7000 anyway--REA itself did not give any estimate with the item, which was rare, signaling they didn't know what the ceiling was, either. That always gets your hopes up. The next highest PSA for the card was a 5, so you'd think the registry guys would love it. I know Marquard is not a key HOFer and that is one factor, but still. Also, as I noted here early on, and others agreed, the color printing of the REA catalog was very poor.

Did Rob give you his own estimate of what he thought the card would hammer at?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Consigning a card always carries with it a certain degree of risk. Even in the best auctions, every card does not bring a record price or even do well.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Consigning a card always carries with it a certain degree of risk. Even in the best auctions, every card does not bring a record price or even do well.

+1....well said.

[Econteachert205]

As an outsider to the cj world, I look at the cicotte and Marquard and I find the artistry of the cicotte much more attractive. Also, despite Marquard being in the Hof (bah) to me cicotte is the much more collectible player.

[Jaybird]

Great looking card, nice centering and overall great eye appeal. It doesn't have the card color showing through with scuffs and faded color that cards suffer from. The card speaks for itself. Maybe people can see past the registry and just want a really nice '14 CJ. Boogers and all.

[Robert_Lifson]

Ironically, we DID discuss value with Greg Mitchell. Below is our communication to Greg. It sold for $5,100 ($100 above the $3,000 to $5,000 likely selling price that Brian communicated very clearly in writing). Also, the SMR value is $3,300. I can understand a seller always wishing a consignment sold for more, but I think the card brought a very strong price.



-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Dwyer
To: Greg Mitchell
Sent: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 10:39 am
Subject: Re: from Greg Mitchell, re:consigning
Hi Greg,

Thanks for your email. I've noticed the spike in 1914 CJ pricing, so you're right that now might be a good time to sell your card. The strong interest in the set, coupled with a 1/1 pop, which can only go up, is a good combination.

To answer your questions:

1) There would be no seller's fee to you. You'd receive 100% of the hammer price.

2) As far as placement in the catalog, we put all of our lots chronologically, so the CJ would fall towards the front of the book naturally. With everyone bidding online, and the search function taking people directly to what they're looking for, placement in the catalog isn't as important as it once was. I would guarantee you a half page on the card, perhaps more if it looks good and fits with the layout of the book (we're building a huge puzzle so everything has to fit).

3) With respect to additional promo, we promote the whole auction extensively, in several venues that other places do not and with the largest circulation of catalogs in the hobby. We can place your card in one of our mass e-mails concerning the auction.

4) We would start the card at $1,000.

5) It's not that we don't like to give estimates, it's just that on certain cards/items, it can be extremely difficult to know what something will go for. I don't think anyone would've predicted $2300 for Sallee, or $343,000 for the Ruth/Gehrig ball that we sold last spring (after selling it for $98,000 a few auctions earlier), or $12,000 for the PSA 6 Old Mill Tinker we had (SMR $575). I think the card would likely sell for between $3-5,000. Naturally, I hope it sells for $10,000, but we don't know how fierce the competition will be. I could tell you I think it will sell for $10,000, which might make you happy, but then if it sells for $5,000, you're disappointed. Instead, we tell people to focus on consigning your card to the place that will do the best job, as buyers will respond accordingly, and we think we fit the bill.

6) I think now is a good time to sell. As I alluded to earlier, the population on this card can only go up. You have a number of guys in the market who are clearly competing for high-end cards. Trying to time anything, whether it be card prices, stock prices, home prices, etc. is nearly impossible and can be like catching daggers. I think we know that things are looking good for CJs now, so capitalize while you know you can. Things might go up a bit, which might sting for a little if you "lose" out on a few hundred bucks, but it would sting a lot more if the price dropped in half.

If you have any other questions, please let me know. We'd love to have the card, we think it would do well, and the sooner we have it, the sooner we can tell people about it.

Brian

[calvindog]

Wow, Rob, what a bastard you are -- the card sold for more than your estimate. How dare you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Greg's hopes may have been up, but it's hard to see how that can be fairly attributed to anything Rob did or did not do. Sheesh.

[GregMitch34]

Please point to where I claimed REA over-sold me on the card. I never made that claim. I simply pointed out that they probably had their own somewhat higher hopes for card since, unlike most of their other high-priced CJ cards, they did NOT provide an estimate with the listing in the catalog. Instead it was "open." I never said they misled me personally. So they are knocking down a straw man. And, really, quoting an SMR price?

[calvindog]

Greg, they gave YOU the estimate -- and the card surpassed it. No one is suggesting that REA "over-sold" you on the card. What we're saying is that your complaints about REA are without merit. How can a card surpass their estimates translate to "they probably had their own somewhat higher hopes for [the] card"? They had their estimate and it was surpassed. And Rob is claiming that he was pleased with the result -- yet you were "very disappointed." So because the card didn't sell for the unrealistic price you were hoping for, you blame it on the catalog?

And curiously, when I asked last night if Rob had given you his own estimate of the card's final auction price, you went silent, thus leaving the implication that no REA estimate was provided. It was -- just to you.

[GregMitch34]

"Went silent"? I guess there's a time limit for replying to queries--especially when one has family, work to do, annual physical, etc.? And, for the second time--I never claimed REA over-hyped me on the card. I still think it's interesting that unlike in most other cases they did not put "3000-5000" estimate in the catalog. That suggests that they, like me, had some hope of doing better. After all, the card was "new to the hobby" and was top graded by two whole points. Naturally one wonders what it might bring. That's all I've said.

[calvindog]

No, you clearly suggested that the the catalog hurt your card's final hammer price -- even though it surpassed Rob's estimate. Can you appreciate how that looks?

[usernamealreadytaken]

Greg. Do you basically mean to say that you are disappointed that the card didn't sell higher? In other words, estimates (or not) and quality of catalogue pics aside, the market just didn't value the card where you would have expected and wanted it to be? Or are you claiming something else (that REA's failure to provide an estimate in the listing and/or poor pics) depressed the final price?

BTW, in my opinion, the current CJ market is being driven by collectors ticking off a checklist, not amassing the finest set. That explains the Cicotte going off. There have been quite a few Marquards on the market lately . . .

[asoriano]

Originally Posted by usernamealreadytaken

BTW, in my opinion, the current CJ market is being driven by collectors ticking off a checklist, not amassing the finest set.

+1

[GregMitch34]

I certainly didn't claim that the failure to give an estimate in the listing depressed the price. If anything, I would have thought it might hike it. I cite it only as an indication that they, too, thought it might go higher. And I indicated earlier that Marquard is not a top-level HOFer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

"Went silent"? I guess there's a time limit for replying to queries--especially when one has family, work to do, annual physical, etc.? And, for the second time--I never claimed REA over-hyped me on the card. I still think it's interesting that unlike in other cases they did not put "3000-5000" estimate in the catalog. That suggests that they, like me, had some hope of doing better. After all, the card was "new to the hobby" and was top graded by two whole points. Naturally one wonders what it might bring. That's all I've said.

I think you are projecting your own hope onto Rob. He clearly told you what he thought it would bring and he was right.

[uniship]

It's a gorgeous card. And it's a $5k card. And REA is basically the best in the business, so I would feel good you got the true market price at a time with the CJ set is still hot. Buyer got a fair deal and seller got the honest market value. REA got rightful commission, everyone wins. Nothing else to see here. IMO.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

I just found it amusing that they re-submitted to SGC and just got a half-point bump...

Yeah, I should consign but I was very disappointed with what my top-graded Marquard just got at REA...

Pretty much no other way to interpret this than you weren't happy with the price the Marquard brought. I don't see how this is debatable. You weren't happy and yet they told you exactly what it would bring. C'mon.

[ullmandds]

I'm guessing you didn't lose money on your marquard, greg? we all knowing buying aand selling bb cards can be like rolling the dice...you win some you lose some...like life. You CAN'T win them all...noone does!

You play this game enough you will have some big scores...and some grave disappointments. I don't think you did so bad!

[ValKehl]

I don't collect CJs, and almost no sets for that matter; so, I don't have any opinion as to what the Marquard sold for.

But, I am totally impressed with the email Brian sent Greg. It is, by far, the best, most thorough, and most professional communication of this sort from an auction house and/or dealer that I have ever seen!
Val

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

I don't collect CJs, and almost no sets for that matter; so, I don't have any opinion as to what the Marquard sold for.



But, I am totally impressed with the email Brian sent Greg. It is, by far, the best, most thorough, and most professional communication of this sort from an auction house and/or dealer that I have ever seen!

Val

+1