Hmm...will this card cross from SGC to PSA?

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Posted By: Dave

Picked this up tonight....curious about it crossing over to a PSA 5 or not...can't tell if the card is dirty, or bad scan or what....maybe SGC overgraded one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160078544834&rd=1&rd=1

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Posted By: JimB

It looks like it should, but I would crack it out of the present holder. They generally do not cross anything from holders.
JimB

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Dave,

The one attribute that this card has is decent centering. W/o seeing this close up, I would guess that it could cross to a "5". You just never know sometimes. Good luck. Let us know if you do have it crossed over.

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Posted By: Jim

Why would you want to crack that out and put it in a PSA holder? It looks fabulous in green and black?

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Posted By: Dave

Not sure that I want to take the chance of cracking it out and submitting. Obviously I didn't pay what a normal southern leaguer in a 60 (5) is going for right now, and I'm just wondering the reason..it was worth the gamble I'm sure...at the least it should be a hign end four....and thats about the price market I was in for it

Looking at the scan of the card...the yellow background just looks dirty? Maybe its just me...I would have thought if it was that dirty it wouldn't have been put in a 60 holder to begin with. I also question if the small scan itself didn't hurt the selling price in the end. I just found it curious...I know Yorktown is a bigtime dealer and they usually get top dollar it seems.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

the reason you got it for less than a PSA 5 SLer usually goes for, is because PSA commands more than SGC (i can only speak for T206 cards)...looking at the scan, i think it should be fine to crossover (do not break it out!)

over the years i have submitted only about 10 or so cards for crossover, and i think around 7 got crossed over (approx. 70%)...

they just crossed over for me:

-o'hara, st.louis (SGC 2---PSA 2)
-UZIT (SGC 3---PSA 3)
-T200 Cleveland (SGC 1.5---PSA 2MK)

and over the years they have crossed over several SGC 6's & 7's...i think one SGC 6 even got a PSA 7...that was good news to hear!

good luck.

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Posted By: Dave

So you would only submit as is...along with the statement of minimum of 5 or nothing...I wonder how often cards are borderline but PSA or SGC for that matter actually cross them over just to get thier own slab on more cards...

Edited to say....that 70% is great...but you don't put Dave on your submission forms...they usually see that and start laughing. I'll streak Turner Field at a Braves game this spring if this card would come back a 6...I don't think anyway possible, corners dont look that sharp

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Posted By: MVSNYC

no chance of it coming back a 6...

i have cracked out certain cards (some in GAI holders), but SGC definitely gets high respect in PSA's eyes...

BUT, you said you thought maybe if a card was "borderline", that PSA would cross it to get another one of their slabs out there...you are mistaken, IF it is borderline, they WILL NOT cross it...they are very tuff when it comes to crossing...i have spoken to other collectors about this, they have not had the same luck i have...maybe i just have a good eye for what is worthy of being crossed?

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Posted By: cmoking

JimB wrote: "It looks like it should, but I would crack it out of the present holder. They generally do not cross anything from holders."

I've had many cards crossed from PSA --> SGC and SGC --> PSA. In my experience, many cards do cross from one holder to another in the same grade.

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Posted By: Dave

Cmoking yeah...just too scared to crack and submit. I just know it would probably end up a 4 or even worse, trimmed..altered or something. I am a PSA guy....if it doesn't come back a 5 then I'll just resell in the SGC holder and get my money back out of it.
Dave

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Posted By: T206Collector

While I will not dispute that PSA sometimes gets a marginal advantage on T206, you can't say that the reason this card sold for $200 was because it was an SGC 60, and that if it was a PSA 5 that it would've sold for $400+. SGC 60 southern leaguers -- rare that they are -- sell for over $400 routinely.

E.g.,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220028702837>

Since I have joined VintageCardPrices.com I have noticed that SGC sells comparably to PSA in T206 -- sometimes more, sometimes less -- with GAI and BVG lagging meaningfully behind. Take a look at T206 Cobb Red sales, and you will see comparably graded SGC versions routinely selling for more than PSA.

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Posted By: Bob

JimB- Your opinion (and from others) on cracking open a slab from a non-big 3 company and submitting to SGC as opposed to sending them the slab and asking for a cross-over. The card in question is a mid-grade DeLong Gehrig which measures correctly, appears graded correctly and is not from PRO or a noted slabber of altered cards.
Bob

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Posted By: MVSNYC

T206Collector-

you are showing us an auction from september? alot changes in 4-5 months...i am not anti-SGC, i like their product & i met and like Dave Forman...it is just my experience that most PSA T206's sell for higher prices than SGC T206's...just one man's observations. look at the SL PSA 5's & 6's that have just ended $500+ & $1000+ each, respectively...

not looking to have a pissing match here, you always have great insight, and i respect you, just calling them as i see 'em.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-WOODIE-THORNTON-OLD-MILL-PSA-5_W0QQitemZ150081306718QQihZ005QQcategoryZ31718QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: T206Collector

...because it was the first SGC 60 Southern Leaguer I could find that has sold on ebay in the past few months. I'm not going to dredge up others, but a PSA 5 Thornton also sold on ebay in the past couple of months for $400ish.

My only point is that it is as easy to find examples of PSA selling for more than SGC as it is to find SGC selling for more than PSA. Examples of SGC 60(5) southern leaguers, which rarely come to auction, don't prove much in the abstract. I encourage you to look at VintageCardPrices.com sales of T206 Cobb Red Portraits -- perhaps the most abundant and regularly traded T206 card. You will see SGC selling for more than PSA on a regular basis.

In my experience, I have never been able to get a meaningful discount on a T206 card because I was collecting the set in SGC holders. BVG and GAI? Yes, absolutely. But not SGC.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

...thanks, i will check out that site.

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Posted By: Dave

IMO I'm thinking the card didn't go for higher because of the scan...not real good with details. Even though there aren't many of the Dutch Jordan's or for that matter many SL'ers at all in SGC 60 slabs, there are 17 or 18 Jordan's higher than 5's in PSA slabs. As far as SL'ers go I think that is a pretty high amount above 5's compared to the others in the set...Michael you might can correct me on that. I often think that the higher priced SGC Southern Leaguers may well in fact be bought by PSA guys that do cross them over, and with this Jordan having so many graded higher with PSA, maybe that is why it didn't bring a higher price. Don't get me wrong I'm happy with it. Even with eight seconds to go I didn't think I'd win it, I had a max bid of $245 in it. I guess until the card gets in my hands we just won't know if it has any faults which may have caused it to dip in price. I know the centering doesn't look bad, to me anyway..and it does have an Old Mill back...not that an OM back would bring it much more money though. I'll post a detailed scan of the card when it arrives for better opinions on crossing it over.

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Posted By: steve

For the first time last year I joined PSA. My 7 free grading coupons arrived, and I had my 7 cards ready for crossover submission. 5 were HOF'ers from the 1960's in GAI "8" holders (looked good to me)- one was a 1948 Leaf Ted Williams SGC 60, and one was a 1934 Goudey Carl Hubbel BVG 5. All I asked was for an even grade swap as minimum. Every day I would check PSA for the posted results. Drum roll, when the grades posted NOT ONE made it. All were returned in their original slabs. Well that was a big waste of time and money. But get this, several years ago PSA took submissions without membership, I sent in a T206 Cobb bat on CSA 5 (old CSA holder)- and it now sits in a PSA 5 holder. People have balked at the Cobb crossover story, but true it is.

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Posted By: Dave

I guess if the Jordan crosses over or not...I won't lose sleep. Either way eventually I'm likely to sell the card since it wouldn't exactly fit into my PSA 1-3 theme. If it doesn't make it I'll throw it back to the SGC wolves (however many there are) on ebay...I would at least hope to get the $200 back.

Dave

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Hi Dave,

I don't think it will cross to PSA, for the simple reason that the corners look a little too rounded. My personal experience is that every now and then SGC will let a 60 through based on superb other criteria such as image, surface, super clean back etc...., but with more rounded corners than you might otherwise expect. I doubt when the card arrives you will find the surface dirty, and indeed I think this is part of the image worsened slightly by a dark scan. PSA5's I think will tend to require reasonably square corners, but let some other criteria slide.
Definitely horses for courses, and don't fear - plenty of SGC sharks out there. I would just thow it on the BST after all this advertising and think it should move pretty easily if it doesn't cross.

Daniel

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Posted By: Dave

Thanks for the input Daniel...the last thing I want to do though is immediately throw the card on the B/S/T....been there done that before after aquiring a card and talking about the price...LOL

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i just looked at it again, bad scan...

i agree, corners look too rounded for a PSA 5, but hey, give it a shot (just don't crack it out!)...

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Posted By: Dave

here is a card I submitted a couple months back that came back a 5...it didn't have great corners either...so who even knows..

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Posted By: MVSNYC

dave, sorry pic is not loading...

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Posted By: JimB

TBob,
If it is not graded by one of the big 3, I would definately crack it out. There is really nothing to lose and I believe it is the only way to get an honest assessment from them.

In my experience, SGC seems to make an honest assessment of cards submitted for crossover and PSA does not. I recently attempted to cross a card from a a GAI 7.5 to PSA with the caveat that I would accept a 7 or better. Aside from 70/30 centering, the card is virtually mint. PSA said that they would give it a 5. I have gone over every milimeter of the card with a 10x loupe and there is no subtle wrinkle or any other problem. This is just a BS unwritten policy in my opinion. They may be harsher on cards in GAI holders than SGC, but I find the attempt utterly worthless. I would not have done it if it were not a card which is part of a set that is already in PSA holders.
Jim B

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Posted By: Dave

Well the card in question was sold, so won't ever know if it would have crossed over to PSA or not. Although once in my hands I did think it looked like a solid 5.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

why did you sell it so fast? just curious, i thought you were going to try to cross it over...

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Posted By: Dave

I was...but what I figured was by the time I sent it off, had it graded..and took the chance it may or may not come back a 5...I wouldn't really have made any more money..at least I don't think. It sold as is for $412...so happy with that..

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ok, understood...looks like you made a decent profit, good for you.

MS

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Posted By: Dave

Yeah..another 12-15 PSA 1 and 2's will come out of it...ha ha

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Posted By: MVSNYC

keep pluggin' away...i just recently sold a bunch of higher grade items, in order to pursue my real focus (rare backs & rare variations)...then i'll slowly start to infill with mid-grade commons & HOFers, etc...

the wonderful thing about collecting T206 is that you can do it so many different ways...

have you read Scot Readers' ebook? it is amazing!

...also, make sure you get Bill Heitmans little book, and Lew Lipset's "Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Vol. 1,2&3)

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Posted By: Dave

oh yeah..I have Scot's article bookmarked to read and got Lew Lipsets 1, 2 &3 volumes combined for Christmas....I haven't made it out of the pre 1900 cards yet.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

well, fast forward to T206...it is really informative...

ok, gotta run to meet a friend for Martini's, then it's off to the NYC Dinner!!!

i'm bringing along a cool new acquisition...(shh, don't tell anyone).