Jeter and Today's baseball

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

You can take your Pujols, Ortiz, Manny, Morneau, Mauer, Thomas, Bonds, anyone. I'll take Jeter. Every time. No question.


edited title (moderator)

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Does this qualify for the OT kill button?

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Jay you're such a hater! I really don't know too many people that would not want Jeter on their team, especially come post season.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I wrote 2 replies to this thread, before any other post was made, and didn't hit the "reply" button. If you guys want to have 1 contained thread...like this one...that wouldn't be too bad. One thread though....then for those of us that want to mainly talk cards, we can do that. I did kill another thread by a "less than everyday participant" ( I think ) ....but none of this is personal. I am trying to keep the board on track. How does one thread of new stuff (this season's games) sound?

btw, it could be that other current thread that is going...but let's only have one..

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

is a Tiger killer and I love him.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Weren't we recently hearing on these boards that he was just a 'very good' player? Well, this very good player has 8 hits in his last two post-season games - a record. Anyone want to eat crow?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey, you anti-Jeter guys....beat that performance.....WOW !

I will never forget that "heads-up" play that Jeter pulled off several years ago
against Oakland in the 3rd Play-off game. Oakland was leading the Yankees 2-0
in that Play-Off series.

In a play that will go in history as one of the best post-seasons plays ever, Jeter
scoots over from his SS position to 1/2 way down the 1st base line. He cuts-off
the throw from the OF, then spins around and flips the ball to the catcher just in
time to throw out the Oakland runner, who is trying to score.

Oakland never recovered from this tremendous play, as the Yankees swept the
remaining games to win that series.

It was an AWESOME play......BB doesn't get much better than this.

T-Rex TED

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

bottom line....Jeter is a stone cold clutch player.

[Archive]

Posted By: steve f

.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhys

When your team makes it to 12 straight postseason appearances and you are there for ALL of them, that gives you a lot of opportunity to get comfortable in the situation and many many chances to shine under the spotlight as well. In his first World Series Jeter batted .250 and guess what, his postseason batting average for his career is LOWER than his regular season batting average (.306 compared to .314 I believe). I would NEVER have thought that was true but I just looked it up. Clutch postseason hitter, yes. Overrated, YES.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Wow, this board can be pretty irrational and misinformed at times. Never is this more apparent than when discussing the Negro Leagues or Derek Jeter. These are two topics I happen to have interest in. I'm usually pretty good about quietly ignoring these kinds of threads, but this one was too hard to read and stay quiet. I figured this might be a good place for some actual facts.

Whether you like Jeter or not, as you ruminate about the Yankee captain, at least do so with accurate information, not bogus propaganda that the Jeter/Yankee-haters would have you believe:

1. When YOUR team (the team that you play for and are the captain of) makes 12 straight postseasons in a row, you are either very good and one of the main contributors to their success, or very lucky and riding on the coattails of your teammates. Which one describes Derek Jeter?

2. In Jeter's 1st World Series, he did hit .250. That was his 3rd postseason series. In his 1st postseason series he hit .412. In his 2nd postseason series he hit .417. Including his .250 average in the World Series, he hit .361 in his first postseason. Oh, and he was a ROOKIE. Also, his team won.

3. Jeter's career postseason average is .315, not .306.

4. Jeter's career regular season average is .317, not .314.

5. Here are some comparisons the board will love:

TY COBB: .366 career batting average.
DEREK JETER: .317 career batting average.

TY COBB: .262 career postseason batting average.
DEREK JETER: .315 career postseason batting average.

TY COBB: 104 points lower average in postseason than regular season.
DEREK JETER: 2 points lower average in postseason than regular season.

TY COBB: 24 seasons (all full seasons.)
DEREK JETER: In his 12th season (all full seasons.)

TY COBB: 0 World Series rings.
DEREK JETER: 4 World Series rings (and counting.)

TY COBB: = Overrated.
DEREK JETER: = Underrated.

TY COBB: = Alex Rodriguez
DEREK JETER: = Joe DiMaggio

TY COBB: = Wilt Chamberlain
DEREK JETER: = Bill Russell

TY COBB: = Loser
DEREK JETER: = Winner


6. You'll notice that nowhere above did I mention the word "intangibles" to describe what Jeter brings to the playoff table. Anyone who has watched the Yankees in the playoffs from 1996 until now has seen that in action. To argue otherwise means you either haven't been watching, or are so blinded by Jeter/Yankee hatred that you have missed the artistry of one of the greatest winners of our era.

Oddly, one might think that only Red Sox fans could be capable of falling into the "Derek-Jeter-is-Overrated Trap of Misinformation," but my experience has been that most Red Sox fans, as misguided as they are, usually tend to be educated baseball fans who actually watch baseball and know how clutch Jeter is and how important he is to the success of the Yankees. That's why they hate him so much. No, it seems to be Yankee-haters of the non-Red Sox fan variety that hate Derek Jeter the most. Why is that? My guess is that they hate the Yankees so much that they don't even watch them in the playoffs unless it's against their favorite team. This is why they are so misinformed about who Jeter is as a player and what it is that makes him so good. Believe it or not, there are some things that cannot be encapsulated in statistics. Even in baseball.

-Ryan

P.S. If being a fag means making $20,000,000 a year while playing shortstop for the Yankees and sleeping with hot super models, actresses and singers, I'd sure like to know how to become a fag.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jeter is as good as it gets. It's hard to objectively say he is overrated. Who would I rather have playing shortstop in a key game? Nobody.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm laughing my butt off at the notion that the reason Jeter went 5-5 last night was because he's had so much practice in the post-season. Gee, Rhys, if only you'd been the 25th man on the Yankees roster over the past 10 years you might have gone 4-5!

Say what you want but Yogi Berra, with all of his 'exposure' to these sorts of situations, never had 8 hits over 2 games in the postseason. Jeter has.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

Jeter is totally unlikable.
plenty talented, certainly overexposed and way too much hyperbole.
I would rather have Ozzie Smith

Of course, I am a die hard NL guy who likes to watch players who don't appear to be *******s to the general public...but that is just me. kinda quirky, I know

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

did someone actually just say "jeter is overated"??? he is a lock for the HOF right now...has been absolutely dominent in his era (the main criteria for the Hall)...and even more impressive than his offensive numbers, is his defensive magic...

i'm going to shea today for the Mets game 1...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

One game doesn't make a post season but that one was sure a hell of a start. On another positive note for the Yankees, A-Rod hit the ball hard three of the four times he was up. Unfortunately, two line drives were at someone. Yankees in three over pussycats.

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

I think the fact that theres a thread on a vintage baseball board after 1 game of the playoffs is proof enough of Jeter being overrated and people who love him not being able to accept that so they feel the need to defend him at every chance. Its not that hes not a very good player whos great in the clutch, its that he could bat 400,go 40/40 and not make an error all year and he wouldnt match the hype that has surrounded him since he first hit 300 because he plays in NY

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

12 years into a career...tons of media hype...loved by Yankeee fans...considered a great player...lock for the HOF...Mattingly

Yup, he's a lock for the HOF

PS...not a hater, I thought Leon had asked for a moritorium on new OT posts, but if he lets it slide, that's his call.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

Jay,

Now you're just making stuff up:

Mattingly was "done" 6 years into his career. 12 years into his career his numbers looked like, well, Kirby Puckett's. Puckett is the closest thing the Twins have had to Jeter. Puckett is a HOFer, but Mattingly is not -- check their numbers and then answer the question, why? Something to do with Puckett's two World Series championships perhaps? Well, Jeter has 4. That's why Jeter is a lock if he died tomorrow.

In order to be in the HOF you need 10 great seasons. Mattingly had 6, tops. The last time Mattingly hit over .300 in a full season, with > 20 HR and > 100 RBI was 1989.

To compare Mattingly with Jeter and say Jeter's HOF status may be as tenuous as Mattingly's has become is just an effort to annoy Yankee fans by reminding them that their beloved Mattingly -- who Puckett named "Donnie Baseball" -- is not a surefire HOFer (even though Puckett, with the same numbers, is).

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Personally I don't care too much about todays games and all...but this will be the thread to talk about all baseball going on today...pennant games, players etc....I am going to lock the other one. Nothing personal. I only want one going at a time though ...when this one gets too long we can lock it and start another...This IS a vintage baseball CARD chatboard. I don't mind members having a place, on the boards, to talk about current baseball though....in moderation...

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh Adams

It's easy to look good, or to make it to 12 straight playoffs when your owner just buys up all the all-stars in the league.

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

My original post was an impulsive shout of excitement after last night's game, and not intended to start a dialogue about today's baseball, which, I agree, really has little or no place on a vintage baseball card board.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Thanks for understanding. I think there is an overwhelming sentiment to talk about today's baseball games (not by me but by others). Like I say ....I don't mind the board providing that place...but in "a" contained thread....kind regards and carry on...

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeter is a monster. Period.

You can quote me all the Bill James stats you want. You can tell me he's a defensive liability and not even the best shortstop on his team. You can point to Bernie Williams and tell me he's got better postseason numbers with half the hype (which is true). You can even point out that stats would indicate that Jeter is not the "clutch" performer that people say he is.

But when Jeter goes into the HOF, which he will, people will talk about what he meant to these teams he's been on - and NOT his statistics. I watch this guy play every day. For the past 11 years, there has ALWAYS been a Yankee I liked better - Paul O'Neill, Jorge Posada, Bernie Williams, Mariano Rivera. But the bottom line is this: Derek Jeter takes all the hype, all the media and fan scrutiny, all the pressures of playing for George Steinbrenner's Yankees, all the pressure of the EXPECTATIONS of winning the World Series every year, and consistently delivers. He's been a rock in that lineup since 1996, he's one of the most fundamentally sound players in the game, and he's a superstar.

No, he's not Michael Jordan. He's not Gretzky. He's not Pujols.

But you can throw all sorts of "close and late" numbers and sabermetric stats out the window with Jeter. Because when the Yankees desperately need a guy to come from out of nowhere, catch an errant throw and dish a shovel pass off to Posada, Jeter is there. When the Yankees need someone to dive face-first into the stands to catch a foul pop and inspire his team, Jeter is there. When the Yankees need someone to hit a leadoff home run in the Subway Series to get his team sparked, Jeter is there. And when they need someone to calmly go 5-for-5 and then deflect all the praise to his teammates, Jeter is there.

If I'm building a new franchise today, Derek Jeter is the first guy I take. Not because I'm a Yankee homer, but because I want my first guy to be a leader who understands the importance of a team game - and can consistently deliver fundamentals at a very high level.

Ozzie Smith? Great player, HOFer. Not in Jeter's league.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

I saw Albert Pujols mentioned above as someone who isnt as good as the immortal Jeter. Pujols hit a 2 run HR in game 1 of his playoff series to lead the Cardinals to victory.

Maybe if Pujols went out clubbing with Mariah Carey and had people like Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu, Gary Sheffield and Alex Rodriguez batting before and after him, he could be thought of in the same class as Jeter...

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

Comparing player batting averages and postseason performances separated by nearly one hundred years= OVERRATED.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

The more I think about it, Jeter is probably the second best shortstop ever. Pretty amazing when the team also has the greatest closer ever and the player who may someday be regarded as the greatest third baseman ever. BTW, whoever said they preferred Ozzie Smith to Jeter needs to think again. I don't think Ozzie should even be in the HOF, let alone be compared to Jeter.

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Alex Rodriguez as the greatest third baseman ever? If I want a guy who will hit a 2-run homerun in a 10-3 ballgame, he would be my guy. Other than that, I can think of many others throughout history I would take over him.

Cant argue with Rivera though...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Clarke

Got to love him... Actions are louder than words... Better start buying up those Little Sun Jeter Cards!!!! His true rookie card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Chris--I agree but 100 years from now when people look at the numbers A-Rod may look like the best third baseman ever. Rivera is the no question best closer ever and the most valuable player in baseball over the last decade.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jay,

You might want to reconsider posting multiple times in threads asking for them to be deemed "OT" and have Leon lock or delete them. I say this because you start more OT threads than anyone else on the board and post regularly in every thread mentioning the word "steroids." I'm pretty sure that's not a word that would come up very often when discussing vintage cards, so those threads are probably all OT.

It's interesting that you have no problem with threads about Barry Bonds or the Twins, but when Jeter gets mentioned, it's time for a thread to be locked. But like you said, you're not a hater, right?

I'm all for OT threads being deleted or locked, or at least kept to a minimum, which hopefully will include ones about horse racing or football or other topics, even when moderators are interested in those subjects.

As long as it is consistent and fair, which has usually been the case, we won't need to worry about having to ask for threads to be locked or deleted. It will just magically happen when it's appropriate.

For all the other Jeter-haters, I would like to suggest one simple guideline when constructing your argument for why Jeter sucks. When comparing a player to Jeter, let's consider using a one-ring minimum requirement. Pujols is incredible. In fact, there are only 3 players that can even be considered when discussing the most clutch hitter in the game: David Ortiz, Derek Jeter, Albert Pujols. Still, save the Pujols comparison until he gets his first ring.

Why aren't you Jeter-haters pointing out that Ortiz is as clutch as Jeter? Oh, that's right, it doesn't count because he has Manny Ramirez hitting behind him and there are other good players on his team. According to you guys, it must be easy to be as clutch as Ortiz because all the players on his team don't suck.

For Jeter to get any respect I think he'd have to resurrect the 1899 Cleveland Spiders and form an expansion team of zombies that he leads to a World Series victory. Actually, I take that back. He still wouldn't get any respect outside of the Yankee fan and zombie communities.

And why is it unreasonable to compare postseason performance from one era to the next? Is it because the immortal Ty Cobb is beyond reproach? Yes, it is. Especially here. There's no denying Cobb is one of the greatest individuals ever to play. Too bad baseball is a team sport. If only Cobb had been a golfer or tennis player. Maybe then he could have won at least one championship in 24 years. He did win a bunch of batting titles, though. So he's got that going for him.

Okay, enough from me on this thread. Feel free to continue arguing why U.L Washington was better than Derek Jeter and how Cobb just never had any decent teammates.

-Ryan


P.S. Alex Rodriguez sucks. Give me Brosius or Nettles any day. It has yet to be proven that the Yankees can win in spite of having Alex Rodriguez, the anti-Jeter on the team. His only redemption can come from an absolutely monster World Series where he is the reason the Yankees win. And then do it again 2 or 3 more times.

[Archive]

Posted By: joe brennan

How anybody can compare Jeter to Ty Cobb and then pick Jeter is unbelievable. But then again, its all apples and oranges. Just 1 thing to add. Bring the thread up again when Jeter hits over .400.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

Since everyone else is throwing in their 2 pennies, here's mine...

Jeter is great, and a lock for the HOF. I don't find Jeter particularly likeable, but don't dislike him either;however, I am a true Yankee-Hater.

I also loved Don Mattingly and thought it was a crying shame that they never put it together until after he retired - he was incredibly likeable and yes, I would put him in the HOF. But he obviously hasn't had the caliber of career that has Jeter, even if you ignored Jeter's post-season play.

As an Astros fan, I despise Pujols, but I would rather have him on my team than anyone else in either league, even Jeter.

(Disclaimer, as I am also the guy who would trade Ichiro and Sexton to Cincinnati for Adam Dunn and minor league speedster).

[Archive]

Posted By: James Feagin

"And why is it unreasonable to compare postseason performance from one era to the next? Is it because the immortal Ty Cobb is beyond reproach? Yes, it is. Especially here. There's no denying Cobb is one of the greatest individuals ever to play. Too bad baseball is a team sport."

You answered your own question. It's unreasonable because baseball is a team game, Jeter himself would probably tell you one of the reasons he is so "clutch" is because of his teammates. So I will ask Ryan, how is it in any way comparable that a player with 65 post AB's can be evaluated with a player one hundred years apart with 400 post AB's? I understand your point, and its fun to challenge conventions of greatness, but it's only natural to glamorize history. You do that with your baseball focus, so others will as well.

"Okay, enough from me on this thread. Feel free to continue arguing why U.L Washington was better than Derek Jeter and how Cobb just never had any decent teammates."

The old "I get the last word and bail" technique. C'mon you're better than that. I think most would probably rater say that Jeter is not over-rated, but over-exposed. This "jealousy" is better directed at Fox and ESPN which seems to think there are a total of 4 teams in all of major league baseball.


"P.S. Alex Rodriguez sucks."

So is it stats or intangibles? Wouldn't you like to be making $25,000,000 and sleeping....nevermind. Look at A-Rods total post-season stats, which only paint a brief picture of his cumulative greatness. Yankees fans don't deserve A-Rod.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

You mentioned: "The more I think about it, Jeter is probably the second best shortstop ever. Pretty amazing when the team also has the greatest closer ever and the player who may someday be regarded as the greatest third baseman ever. BTW, whoever said they preferred Ozzie Smith to Jeter needs to think again. I don't think Ozzie should even be in the HOF, let alone be compared to Jeter."

That was me, and it's merely a preference, and I can think about it every day until I die, and I will always give you the same answer: Ozzie Smith over Jeter....who is your first pick at SS, as you mention that Jeter is second-best ever?

Regardless, Ozzie is in the HOF, he was a first ballot, and no one else went in with him, so there are other voices behind mine that speak louder and with far more authority...
BTW, I'm not arguing that Jeter's not great, or that he won't be Hall-worthy...I'm merely saying that you always need a guy to hate, he happens to be that guy, and I don't want him on my team if I were choosing sides in a sandlot game...
It is interesting that so many people hate him though...

[Archive]

Posted By: Patrick McHugh

I may be wrong but this may be the first year in mlb history there is no 20 game winner. Discuss.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Ryan, you had me firmly in your camp until you wrote "Alex Rodriguez sucks."

Alex Rodriguez most definitely does not suck. He's been a disappointment this year for sure.

As a kid, Graig Nettles was my idol. And I was thrilled to get Scott Brosius. And between the two of them, in their entire careers as Yankees, they produced only one season that was as strong offensively as Rodriguez was THIS year, his worst season. That's Brosius' first year as a Yankee, when he hit .300 and drove in 98.

If Graig Nettles or Scott Brosius EVER had a season where they hit .290 with 35 HR, 121 RBI, 113 runs scored, 15 stolen bases, and .302 with 85 RBI with RISP, Yankee fans would have done cartwheels.

Rodriguez had a seriously off year (for him), and he'll probably be gone as a result of his whining and inability to deal with the pressure. But he's a dynamite player, in general, one of the better players of all-time.

-Al

PS - I also agree that Pujols is a monster, a better player than Jeter and just as important to his team.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I would take Jeter over Cobb any day. At shortstop.

Jeter is a great player and anyone who says otherwise is ignoring the facts. He hits over .300 for a career from a position that is typically light hitting, and is young enough to reach 3000 hits. He also hits with power, for a middle infielder. The stat heads may say he's not a clutch performer, but the highlight reels say otherwise. He is involved in memorable play after memorable play and delivers big hits. The Yankees would have lost that game yesterday without his hitting and his fielding.

Speaking of fielding, I agree that Jeter is not Ozzie Smith. Guess what? No one else is either. It never ceases to amaze me how people criticize Ozzie's HOF selection because he was an average hitter yet criticize those who advocate for Jeter in the HOF because he is not Ozzie Smith with a glove. The overall package is what should be discussed. Oz was a HOFer because he was one of the best fielders ever at his position (arguably the best) and a decent hitter for his position. Jeter is a HOFer because he is a superior hitter and a better than average fielder for his position. Compare Jeter to his contemporaries at his position. Who rivals him at shortstop for his career? A-Rod and Ripken (maybe, as he was at the tail end of his career at the start of Jeter's run), both HOFer material. That's a pretty short list of rivals. Jeter is one of the top 2 or 3 shortstops of his era, if not the top, and he has sustained it for 12 years in the most unforgiving baseball market in the world, with class and dignity. That is a HOFer in my book.

[Archive]

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Re this comment:

"The more I think about it, Jeter is probably the second best shortstop ever. Pretty amazing when the team also has the greatest closer ever and the player who may someday be regarded as the greatest third baseman ever."

I'm a Steinbrenner-hater but not a Jeter-hater. He's a great player. So are the others mentioned.

But this kind of comment...And Yankee fans wonder why there are so many Yankee-haters around?

Pretty amazing organization! Amazing owner! Killer scouting system! Gee, do you think any of this amazingness could have anything to do with their amazing 500 kazillion in TV revenue and their amazing 400 kazillion payroll, and their truly amazing ability to buy any player on the planet???

NAAAH! After all, Jeter and Rivera are homegrown-- oh wait a minute, if they had come up with the Twins or Marlins, the Yankees would have had them after four years anyway.

I'm also amazed how Yankee fans hate A-Rod. There seems to be some kind of inverse emotional logic where if you love Jeter, you hate to spew out all your negative stuff on somebody who is at least as talented as he is.

Tim

PS: Greatest shortstop ever: a guy named Honus. The others are WAY behind.

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt Goebel

Although I equate rooting for the Yankees to rooting for the IRS, and the endless stream of mercenaries and sell-outs are very distasteful, and Goerge Steinbrenner is an aboniation - I find it very hard to dislike Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera. Jeter is unquestionably clutch/winner/intangibles whatever you want to call it, and Rivera has been the most powerful weapon in the game over the last 15 years. Both guys are also classy, and likeable off the field (although Jeter's perfume deal was a crack in his armor). I would take either of them on my team any time.

WOW - that wasn't as painful as I thought it would be!

[Archive]

Posted By: prewarsports

Lets get a few things straight.

First, I never said Jeter sucks, he is a VERY good player period. I never claimed I was better than him which is just a stupid playground thing to say when you have nothing better to say in an argument. The guy is going to have 3000+ hits and probably a .305 career average when it is all said and done. Good enough for the Hall of fame but not even good enough to hold Ty Cobb's Jock.

Second, I just looked up his stats Ryan. Going into this postseason he had 142 hits in 462 at bats for a .307 career postseason average. I then went to approx 10 different websites that all quote his career postseason average at .306. So unless all these websites are wrong, you are off on your numbers. Even if you factor in his 5/5 last night he is at about .310. He is not even in the top 10 all time MIDDLE INFIELDERS in postseason batting average. Now that is stone cold clutch!

Once again I do NOT hate Jeter, I just get tired of people who are weirdly obsessed with a man-crush on the guy when his numbers simply do not justify it.

When you have a .310 average in the most postseason at bats of all time, you are going to get some big hits.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Honus Wagner

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob

Interesting that the Twins thread gets locked but the Yankees thread goes on...
Typical.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

I think we should unlock Bob's Twinkie thread. After all, they only have two more games left this season so it won't be up for long.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Clarke

I vote to unlock it as well! As long as we do not talk about the Braves/Twins World Series...Meltdown

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

Jeter is a fantastic player, but how anyone can claim he is underrated is beyond me. I dont know who is "underrating" him - its certainly not the press or the broadcasters of the games. Jeter gets more positive publicity than the Pope does in Vatican city...

[Archive]

Posted By: joe brennan

Apples to Oranges, apples to oranges. You cannot compare todays game with the stars from 100 years ago. Power stats, blah blah. Small parks, juiced balls, juiced other things. It's how much greater the player was to the players he played with. Cobb was a man amoung boys. He did everything better in his era. Gretsky, a man amoung boys. Jim Brown, 12 game seasons, a man amoung boys. Jerry Rice, the greatest ever. Weren't Yankee stadium fences move in 50 or 60 feet? The monuments use to be in play. The games has changed but the great ones stand out. When Ruth hit 60 HR's he hit more than 21 other teams combined? How far above the players they play with currently is the measure. Jeter is agreat player but is he that much better than everyone he plays with? He's got a guy playing to the right of him everyday that would beg to differ.

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"First, I never said Jeter sucks, he is a VERY good player period. I never claimed I was better than him which is just a stupid playground thing to say when you have nothing better to say in an argument."

Yeah, you're right. Here's a better thing to say in an argument: "Jeter is great in the postseason because he gets so much practice under pressure." That's brilliant logic. Perhaps you could apply to NASA, they could use a scientist like you.

"Once again I do NOT hate Jeter, I just get tired of people who are weirdly obsessed with a man-crush on the guy when his numbers simply do not justify it."

Gee, that's another intelligent thing to say I suppose when the argument is not going your way. Maybe when the NASA thing doesn't work out you could become a trial lawyer and employ some of those skills of persuasion. I'm actually a Mets fan and a Yankee hater. Unlike you, however, I'm capable of appreciating a "VERY good player" who will be a first ballot HOF inductee.

[Archive]

Posted By: prewarsports

Jeff

You need to realize here Jeff, we are talking about Derek Jeter, not your mother. Why would attack me personally, because I dont want to cuddle up cozy with Jeter? I have said in 5 different posts that he is very good. Hall of Famer, yes. Good player, Yes, overrated yes.

Why does this opinion of mine which is shared by a HUGE number of baseball fans subject me to personal attacks from you? I dont know, maybe its the man-crush thing.

Save this sort of personalized passionate attacks for when they are called for, not a worthless discussion on a public forum over friggin Derek Jeter.

Grow up man.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No, we're not talking about my mother. But if you're going to insult me be prepared to get it back, harder. Save your insults and then you don't have to be abused. It's a simple calculus, really.