Real or Fake?

[bobbvc]

Informal poll on this Wagner cigar label. What do you guys think? And Why?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...K%3AMEDWX%3AIT

[bcbgcbrcb]

My guess is fake, looks too clean to be 100 years old

[rhettyeakley]

A back scan would have been nice as that will tell you more than just an image of the front. Cigar bands often survive in almost pristine condition so that doesn't throw up a major red flag to me. Cigar bands were made on extremely thin paper and were made "embossed" which would be very hard to replicate (although not entirely impossible). Thus, a back scan showing the embossing would indicate that the item was/is in fact real. On the flip side if the item is completely "flat" then it is probably fake.

[deadballpaul]

I dont know much about this issue, but my gut says run away. Always trust your gut if you've been staring at pre war stuff for many years......

[Matthew H]

The bottom edge appears poorly hand cut.

[steve B]

I'm not entirely sure it's vintage, but aside from that I like it. Was there a set of these made sometime more recently?
To me it does appear to be embossed. It could be just in the printing, but looks fairly dimensional.
The border also looks like actual metallic ink, again, not impossible to fake, but also not something you can do on a typical laser printer.

Steve B

[drc]

They are usually embossed, which you can probably see on a back scan or sharp angled scan. I would assume to all fakes don't have the embossment.

[fkw]

I say authentic and a great deal

In older auction catalogs Ive seen uncut sheets of these exact labels, but I cant locate the auction with the sheet yet...
(I have over 100 large auction catalogs going back 25 years)

They are embossed and the photos I have match this eBay example in every way. Embossed with dots around the portrait and the gold parts (diamonds etc.) of the red/gold design are embossed and also around the white area is embossed with a doted design.

found 2 in older auctions...

1991 Copeland Auction, they have one pictured (low grade, missing tip) with an estimate of $3K and it received a $1500 bid but didnt pass reserve.

1991 Wolffers Auctions had one in MINT condition with a $3K est. but I have no record of the price realized.

[Matthew H]

The Border of the label gives it away in my opinion. looks hand cut, look at the shape of the border in this example, the shape doesn't match:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...n/2005/70.html

[steve B]

If they're proofs like the REA description says they could all be hand cut.
This one, also from REA doesn't match their other one, although it's still a bit more shaped than the one on Ebay
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...n/2004/48.html

Steve B

[Matthew H]

Another thing that bothers me, he sold a "Golden Sporting Shoes Ty Cobb AD counter display" for 255$ Check his feedback. I am assuming that there's only one kind of display mentioned and it's worth quite a bit more than 255. On the bright side the feedback reads, "Good seller. I needed to cancel transaction and I got refunded without hassle."

[steve B]

Odd, he's also sold one of these, and has another or the same one up now.
Fantasy piece? Real?
http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-RED-RO...item27bb0e06dc

Making stuff like that is pretty difficult technically, not everyone has access to a die cutting press. But having more than one of them in that sort of condition and taking only $250 for it seems odd. He seems to have a number of interesting advertising pieces, maybe too many. Although he could have found a stash of stuff from someone who worked for a company that printed the ad pieces. Unlikely though since there aren't any for boring products or that don't include a major celebrity.

Rethinking things and assuming fakes and fantasy pieces, the technical sophistication of the stuff is impressive. Plus the restraint of the sellers is also impressive. Stuff like that is usually tripped up by someone deciding to wholesale it instead of selling one here and there.

Steve B

[Leon]

It might be good but I am a bit skeptical. The lithography looks kind of washed out compared with others I have seen. I would require a guarantee on something like that before I bought it. regards

[Jaybird]

I would think that this was returned by the previous bidder. So, that makes me even more nervous. If it was returned once and then relisted, why did that person send it back?

It could also be that the person never paid but it makes me wonder.

[GoldenAge50s]

Colors too washed out to suit me---nothing vivid or stand-outish like I would expect. Hans likeness very undefined.

[bobbvc]

Better Scans...

[docpatlv]

Bob,

I am almost 100% certain that these are well made fakes. The key is, as others have stated, the embossed areas should show through to the other side (reverse). I fairly recently had some discussions with Rob Lifson about these and pretty much came up with the conclusion that they are well made fakes.

Mike

Edited to add image: From the front it appears to be embossed, but the reverse should show the results of embossing similar to the cigar label pictured below

[Jaybird]

Also, the one in REA had vertical lines in the gold area looking like corduroy. The "reprint" one does not have that level of detail.

[bobbvc]

Front looks but doesn't feel embossed. I have a friend who owns a printing shop that can get some pretty detailed scans and color/ink separations. I'm going to take it to him next week. I'm not convinced it's real, but could go either way at this point. If it's fake, well done. Reminds me of some of those Helmar Brewing repros/art projects on Ebay. Seems like the seller has a liberal return policy at least. He said he found two in a page of an old book. I got the second chance offer. Thought it worth the risk.

[docpatlv]

Bob,

Like I stated earlier, the embossing does not show through to the back. If it were legitimately embossed, you would see evidence on the reverse.

Mike

[bobbvc]

Mike, What I'm saying is it's not embossed at all. It just looks like it a little.

[docpatlv]

Bob,

The reason I believe it to be fake is that on the close-ups you showed, it looks like it is embossed, but does not feel like it is embossed is because the image is printed from a legitimate band. The dots around his image and the wavy lines that extend out are produced from being embossed. If the band had not undergone embossing, the circle of dots and wavy lines would not be there.

Below are two legitimate band from REA or Mastro...



This third image will more precisely illustrate why I think it is fake...



You can see on the last image where the embossing is off centered. There is no circular pattern present without the embossing. The image you provided shows the circular embossing pattern and wavy lines extending from Wagner's image. If they were truly embossed, the indentations would be present on the reverse.

Also note the taper of the legit bands on the left side. They are more tapered upwards and down as they extend out. The one you pictured is more straight across. I know that if these were hand cut, there might be some degree of variance. But the fact alone concerning the embossing is enough for me to believe it is fake.

If you want, you can PM me and I can give you more details. I just don't want to see you get burned. I did provide this same info to Rob Lifson and we kind of agreed that they are not authentic. Whoever made them did a real nice job, but IMO not worth the monetary risk to hold on to it.

Mike

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by steve B

Odd, he's also sold one of these, and has another or the same one up now.
Fantasy piece? Real?
http://cgi.ebay.com/BABE-RUTH-RED-RO...item27bb0e06dc

Making stuff like that is pretty difficult technically, not everyone has access to a die cutting press. But having more than one of them in that sort of condition and taking only $250 for it seems odd. He seems to have a number of interesting advertising pieces, maybe too many. Although he could have found a stash of stuff from someone who worked for a company that printed the ad pieces. Unlikely though since there aren't any for boring products or that don't include a major celebrity.

Rethinking things and assuming fakes and fantasy pieces, the technical sophistication of the stuff is impressive. Plus the restraint of the sellers is also impressive. Stuff like that is usually tripped up by someone deciding to wholesale it instead of selling one here and there.

Steve B

This is just regarding this piece, not the cigar label........

Two days ago I was in a local antique mall and they had a tin type wall advertising sign with this identical print on it.....I flipped it over and on the backside it said it was made in 1991.........

I don't know either way about the bottle-topper piece as far as if it's real or not,,,,but it was coincidental that I saw that sign right after reading this thread

[steve B]

Looking at the detailed scans I'd have to think fake too. A bit less impressive than if they'd done the embossing, but still a pretty detailed fake. The metallic ink isn't easy at all. I'd love to be able to compare the screning of the picture area to an original to see just how close they got.

I'm pretty sure it's based on the top one of the genuine examples. The registration of the "embossing" looks very similar, and it has the same extra red mark in the border at the right tip.
It looks like the one in the original auction is the same as well.

Reproducing identifiable details in source material is a common mistake of fakers, and one we should be happy about.

Steve B