PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Exhibitman]

1: Don't forget Beckett. In dollar value the cards on which they screwed the pooch may exceed the PSA mistakes.

2: It is unforgivable that PSA and Beckett are not up front assuring the collector base that they will compensate anyone who got ripped off with these altered cards in their holders. After all, the reason we are at this point is that PSA and Beckett suck giant elephant ass at the one thing they are paid to do; no amount of criminality in the creation and processing of these cards can change that fact. Each doctored card was in PSA or Beckett for an evaluation and they f***ed up every single one of them. That isn't the seller's fault it is the grader's fault.

I'm so sick of the whole thing...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

1: Don't forget Beckett. In dollar value the cards on which they screwed the pooch may exceed the PSA mistakes.

2: It is unforgivable that PSA and Beckett are not up front assuring the collector base that they will compensate anyone who got ripped off with these altered cards in their holders. After all, the reason we are at this point is that PSA and Beckett suck giant elephant ass at the one thing they are paid to do; no amount of criminality in the creation and processing of these cards can change that fact. Each doctored card was in PSA or Beckett for an evaluation and they f***ed up every single one of them. That isn't the seller's fault it is the grader's fault.

I'm so sick of the whole thing...

Adam, you and I both know nothing proactive like that will ever happen here. It will be the same old bullshit of denying, deflecting, disingenuously minimizing the scope of the problem, and falsely reassuring people it's all been contained and fixed. Beckett may not say anything at all. If the guys on Blowout are to be believed, there is an incestuous relationship there between the company and major trimmers. Sloan's statement was maddening beyond belief.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Adam, you and I both know nothing proactive like that will ever happen here. It will be the same old bullshit of denying, deflecting, disingenuously minimizing the scope of the problem, and falsely reassuring people it's all been contained and fixed.

No doubt this will be the case. This has been PSA's modus operandi for decades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

No doubt this will be the case. This has been PSA's modus operandi for decades.

The same decades they apparently have been taking Gary's and everyone else's subs.

A subpoena or discovery request would be so much fun.

[barrysloate]

Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.

I'd settle for release of cert numbers and a good faith (LOL right) review of cards.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.

But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino Family "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.

They aren't going to recall cards, why even take it to the next level? They're on their side, not ours.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino Family "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.

Ultimately, they should become the foundation of a reference collection that can be studied.
compared to other collectibles, they're somewhat unusula in having some remaining value. Most altered coins are made from inexpensive versions, sort of like turning a regular 87 Donruss into a Maddux. An altered very common coin most times ends up at the smelter.
A lot of the stamp fakery is also done by turning something very common and cheap into something expensive. Or outright fakery. The stamp I've shown with the certificate stating that the cancel is fake is a nice example. It was probably unused but had gotten stuck down so the gum wasn't there anymore. That sort of stuff is collected, just like a skinned Old Judge, but it's not an easy sale. However a used one with a nice color cancel is very easy to sell. So a fake cancel happened. (It's an example of a nice variety semi-ruined)

Some of the cards that got altered would be great to have around to examine. Like the trimmed Musial, it's still a nice looking card, and probably has no or nearly no surface wear.
Having it available to compare the printing to another one, or to be able to compare an edge trimmed with some skill to a factory edge would have some value. I can't see destroying them.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by perezfan

But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino Family "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.

If these cards are destroyed (doubt that it will), this will certainly bring up the value of the remaining cards that have not been altered. The POP reports for these remaining cards will be lower.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The same decades they apparently have been taking Gary's and everyone else's subs.

A subpoena or discovery request would be so much fun.

Yeah it would! I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that too.

I'd love to get a forensic computer examiner and a forensic document examiner to look over ebay, PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC. What do you think they'd find? Conspiracy to commit fraud, shill bidding, RICO violations, wire or mail fraud perhaps?

I think there is enough physical evidence already and not just in Huigens and PSA's own statements and actions. What many collectors or dealers might not understand or realize, is that the government might not see these things the same way they do as "fraud has always been done and therefore acceptable". And they might not look the other way as collectors and dealers tend to do just by the sheer amount of money and the fact that one of these companies -Collectors Universe -is publicly traded.

Law enforcement agencies like the FBI or SEC dont care what collectors say, and they'll build a case against the "well respected" or higher-ups of the hobby, and if they can, prosecute. If you dont believe me, just ask Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and a whole slew of counterfeiters, forgers and scammers.

The only saving grace against law enforcement is perhaps a jury who might not understand any of this. Law enforcement's case will have to be made on what could be found on the computers, emails, phone records and before and after photos -the same ones that Huigens says are irrelevant. The amount of money being made and actually follow the money. I'd expect something like this to take a year at least of examination and we're talking at least 5 companies, 14 card or more doctors dating back 2011. Remember, how long did it take the FBI to investigate Mastro again?

[glenv]

It seems like PSA could easily handle this whole situation by just adding a new qualifier. They could do something like this:

1952.jpg

[swarmee]

Razor sharp borders on that one. One of the finest examples extant. Coming up in Auction 6, 7, and 8 until we shill it to the stratosphere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Yeah it would! I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that too.

I'd love to get a forensic computer examiner and a forensic document examiner to look over ebay, PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC. What do you think they'd find? Conspiracy to commit fraud, shill bidding, RICO violations, wire or mail fraud perhaps?

I think there is enough physical evidence already and not just in Huigens and PSA's own statements and actions. What many collectors or dealers might not understand or realize, is that the government might not see these things the same way they do as "fraud has always been done and therefore acceptable". And they might not look the other way as collectors and dealers tend to do just by the sheer amount of money and the fact that one of these companies -Collectors Universe -is publicly traded.

Law enforcement agencies like the FBI or SEC dont care what collectors say, and they'll build a case against the "well respected" or higher-ups of the hobby, and if they can, prosecute. If you dont believe me, just ask Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and a whole slew of counterfeiters, forgers and scammers.

The only saving grace against law enforcement is perhaps a jury who might not understand any of this. Law enforcement's case will have to be made on what could be found on the computers, emails, phone records and before and after photos -the same ones that Huigens says are irrelevant. The amount of money being made and actually follow the money. I'd expect something like this to take a year at least of examination and we're talking at least 5 companies, 14 card or more doctors dating back 2011. Remember, how long did it take the FBI to investigate Mastro again?

I'd add a few AHs to that list too.

[swarmee]

When do the next PSA quarterly report and stockholders meetings occur?