Is CC Sabathia a Hall of Famer?

[Baseballcrazy62]

Just saw he won his 250th game today. Never really thought of him as a HOFer but I might be rethinking my stance. Only 14 pitchers with 250 wins and 3000 strikeouts. Of the 14, the only one not in the hall is Clemens. Your thoughts. Leon: if this is in the wrong area please move it. Thanks

[ullmandds]

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

[lowpopper]

7 seasons over .700 winning percentage. He was dominant.

[Jay Wolt]

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Yes! Outside of CC & Carlton, how many other lefties have 250 wins & 3000K's?
Not Spahn, Not Grove.

Just one.....Randy Johnson.

Steve

[wondo]

I like his chances and I like him. The Hall of Fame has always been somewhat of a popularity contest past the over-qualified players. My perception is that nice guys who are borderline get in - Tony Perez, any friend of Bill Terry, Baines, Youngs, etc. granted, these are all stars that anyone would be ecstatic to have on their team. Perhaps a notch below, while the Dick Allens, roid monsters, Belles of the baseball world remain on the outside. I'm not judging, just saying how it looks. There are outliers to every generalization.

Id love for Sabathia to get into the Hall - he's more than deserving imo. Plus he's one of the few successful players fatter than me (almost).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Definitely. He has both the strong career numbers and a solid stretch where he was one of the top pitchers in the game.

[oldjudge]

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

No, an out that is not a K can advance runners.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Close but no cigar. Who cares about strikeouts? An out is an out. Career 3.71 ERA, 1.26 WHIP--Good, not great.

Better than Jack Morris, especially when you compare each to their contemporaries.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

I agree with this. Verlander ... cc and MaYBE kershaw to 250. Although Kershaw will get in anyway, he only has 160 wins which shows how tough it is with all of the relief these days.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!

Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..

Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.

Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..

Well, the point is that Pettite didn't do anything particularly outstanding in the playoffs. He pitched a lot. He got 44 starts and had a 3.81 ERA. That's not bad. Pretty good in fact. But "really well"? Nah. 4.06 ERA in the World Series. "Really well"? Disagree. "Really well" is Curt Schilling going 11-2 overall with a 2.23 ERA. It's John Smoltz going 15-4 overall with a 2.67 ERA. It's Madison Bumgarner having a 0.25 ERA in the World Series and a 2.11 overall in the playoffs.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Baseballcrazy62

Just saw he won his 250th game today. Never really thought of him as a HOFer but I might be rethinking my stance. Only 14 pitchers with 250 wins and 3000 strikeouts. Of the 14, the only one not in the hall is Clemens. Your thoughts. Leon: if this is in the wrong area please move it. Thanks

Probably yes....But not a first ballot, maybe several ballots. I'm pretty sure he has a career ERA of close to 4.00....I dont know many pitchers in the Hall with that high of an ERA

[Vintageclout]

3.71 lifetime ERA; a horrific 1.26 WHIP and here’s the worst stat of all: only ONE season with a sub-3.00 ERA (and that was a 2.70 Figure). This means even at his ultimate “peak”, he was not putting up earth-shattering numbers. After the 2.70 ERA, I believe his best figure was 3.17. Total “compiler”. He has only averaged 13 wins per season AND he pitched for great Indian and Yankee teams who both provided plenty of run support. Hall of Famer? Not in my book, but as others have accurately stated in this post, he will eventually get it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Well you do have to look at that ERA in context. His ERA+ is 117, so he was 17% better than the league average pitcher. In an era where scoring is up so much the raw number can be misleading.

I certainly find him better than Jack Morris who "only" won 254 games and had a 3.90 ERA with an ERA+ of 105.

I'd also take him over Burleigh Grimes whose ERA was 3.53 but his ERA+ was only 108.

Oh and he beats the pants off of them in WHIP too.

I guess my big issue is there are a SLEW of pitchers I'd put in before him, but I'd have put them in before Morris too. Luis Tiant, Tommy John, even Jim Kaat. However you can unscrew a light bulb, but not a HOF, unless you're in favor of throwing guys out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I always thought Rick Reuschel was quite a bit better than jack Morris and maybe some others in the Hall.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

good call Resuchel is also on my list, just forgot about him. He's probably higher than John and Kaat, neck and neck with Tiant for me.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Well you do have to look at that ERA in context. His ERA+ is 117, so he was 17% better than the league average pitcher. In an era where scoring is up so much the raw number can be misleading.

I certainly find him better than Jack Morris who "only" won 254 games and had a 3.90 ERA with an ERA+ of 105.

I'd also take him over Burleigh Grimes whose ERA was 3.53 but his ERA+ was only 108.

Oh and he beats the pants off of them in WHIP too.

I guess my big issue is there are a SLEW of pitchers I'd put in before him, but I'd have put them in before Morris too. Luis Tiant, Tommy John, even Jim Kaat. However you can unscrew a light bulb, but not a HOF, unless you're in favor of throwing guys out.

If a lot of your argument for a guy going into the Hall is "well, he's better than this guy who's already in..." then the guy probably doesn't belong. HOFers stand on their own. There are lots of guys better than Harold Baines that don't belong, for example.

At least in the case of Morris, he had some dominant postseason outings, including the iconic 1991 game 7. CC? Career 4.31 ERA in the postseason while averaging under 6 innings a start.

CC had some good, even very good, years. Anything great? Nah. Sure, it's important to look at the context of when he played. Good idea. So compare him to his contemporaries - Roy Halladay. Justin Verlander. Clayton Kershaw. Zack Greinke. Madison Bumgarner. Curt Schilling. Randy Johnson. Roger Clemens. Greg Maddux. Corey Kluber. Max Scherzer. And so on. All pitched in the same eras as CC. All put up seasons (or many, many seasons) better than CC's best.

I just don't see him at HOF level.