Another one for the PSA idiot files

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Posted By: warshawlaw

To all PSA defenders out there: how can you continue to support a company that cannot get basic stuff right? I can understand missing an occasional defect or subtle trim job, but come on? An N172 BOXER in a COLOR DRAWING? WTF???

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8731474145&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

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Posted By: Anonymous

"Excellent color on this card" Certainly better than most of this issue.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hmm...how can I continue to support a company that can't ever get it right....that's a tough question, fair enough. Well, here's how: when their plastic holders surround my cards, on average, they are worth more! How many more of these dopey threads have to be started bashing PSA? And how many more times does everyone else have to chime in and say, "SGC makes mistakes too." Ok, here's what we've learned so far: PSA makes mistakes. SGC makes mistakes. PSA is allegedly haughty in refusing to acknowledge errors (though that is not my personal experience). SGC is sweet and wonderful. Oh, and I just bought a 1955 GAI 9 baseball card that had it been in a PSA 9 holder would have sold for 3x as much.

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Posted By: Anson

Looks like another case of the colorful Fro Joys.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I am absolutely horrified they could make such a mistake especially on such a mainstream issue. David Hall and Joe Orlando should be shot and whoever graded it should be fired. A suit for intentional infliction of emotional distress may also be in order. Perhaps a class action on behalf of all "true" collectors would be appropriate. As for me I may never buy a PSA graded card again, even if it does happen to be in the 99.99 percent that are accurately identified. As Joseph Conrad wrote, "The horror. The horror."

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Posted By: will watson

i'm tempted to post about a thousand scans of correctly graded PSA cards, just so you blind PSA haters can get a better idea of the true % of incorrectly graded cards there are out there

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Posted By: T206Collector

1. Brand Loyalty To PSA

Most of the truly hardcore PSA supporters are such because they have committeed thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, to cards encapsulated by the company. The most vocal PSA supporters -- especially the PSA 7-9 lovers -- are protecting very expensive and valuable collections/investments and stand to lose a lot of money if PSA were ever to lose favor amongst collectors.

2. PSA Makes A Larger Percentage Of Mistakes By Far Than SGC

Rather than a percentage of PSA accurates vs. inaccurates, I would like to see some SGC mistakes from those who are loyal to PSA (and if you mention Olbermann's T206 Doyle, I'll mention Gretsky's trimmed T206 Wagner). The most frequent argument as to why there aren't as many SGC mistakes is that SGC grades fewer cards than PSA. Right now there are about 60 SGC graded T206 cards vs. 230 PSA graded T206 cards on ebay. Assuming that these aren't all just people dumping overgraded PSA cards, that's a 4:1 ratio of PSA to SGC, in terms of what is out there right now -- that is not a measure of who is grading more of what today. So, if both company's made the same number of mistakes, you would expect to see SGC make about 25% of the kinds of gross errors that PSA makes. And, frankly, it's nowhere near that. Please, show me some proof if you think I am wrong.

3. My Personal Experience

Ask an SGC grader who their best customers are and they will tell you that it is those who have been turned off by PSA. Personally, I got tired of purchasing T206 cards graded PSA 5 over the internet only to find them with creases and trimming. I sent in 40 PSA graded T206 cards to be graded by SGC in their slabs -- 30 came back the same or slightly higher (tweeners, we call them, e.g., PSA 5 up to SGC 70/5.5), 9 came back with lower grades as a result of creases and other damages, and 1 came back trimmed. I welcome any pre-war collector of PSA cards to take the same challenge.

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Posted By: JimB

It is nice to hear a little balance on this issue. I am not a PSA lover or hater, but I get tired of the unending bashing. Will is right, though one could paste millions of correctly identified and graded cards here to give a more fair presentation of this issue if desired (Thankfully I don't think anyone would want that.).
On this particular one, though it is no excuse for a grading company, and most people on this forum can identify an N172, I would not consider any 19th century boxing card mainstream, even from the most popular sets. Sorry Adam.
JimB

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Posted By: Josh K.

Hey Jim,

This might be the first time Ive disagreed with one of your posts - Ive never collected a boxing card and while boxing sets are not mainstream, the goodwin champs set is. Any prewar collector who knows what an n162 baseball card looks like would almost immediately recognize the sullivan as belonging to that set - and the big 3 graders should as well.

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Posted By: Mark

Perhaps PSA should consider removing "n172 Sullivan" from their database, since there is no such animal (OJ boxers = n174).

Edited to add: I think Joe Orlando considers 19C boxing to be mainstream. He lists the n28 Sullivan as one of the "Top 200 Sportscards in the Hobby." By way of comparison, he includes zero caramels (aside from CJs).

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Posted By: Chad

when it comes to grading. But the same card, with the same grade, is worth more in a PSA holder than another holder? I see grading as useful, don't get me wrong, but that sure ties an awful lot of value into an ephemeral quality, ie. the demand for PSA branding, doesn't it? I'm starting to uderstand why debates about grading services get so passionate around here. That's a lot of evaporated value if enough people start thinking to themselves that PSA is crap. (Again, I'm not arguing for or against either grading company, but just trying to understand how this hobby of mine works. Personally, I buy PSA, SGC and GAI cards as well as a lot of raw cards--as long as it's a card I've convinced myself I need I'm good.)

--Chad

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Posted By: Marc S.

There are a few issues:

In general - especially with either higher-value cards and/or higher-grade cards, grading in general helps the value of the card - as it theoretically provides certification from an independent third party that a) the card is original and unaltered and b) a 1-10 grade of the card on a pre-determined scale.

The concept of grading in and of itself provides value - especially when you consider the rampant problems in the hobby [that often still exist today] that surfaced en masse 15 years ago with trimming, recoloring, bleaching, rebuilt corners, etc.

Now - where does that value get distributed? Each grading company is different. PSA and SGC are generally considered the "top-tier" graders. Their holders typically sell for the most. With PSA - they have been around for 15 years, and have holdered a huge number of significant baseball cards [over two dozen Wagners, for example]. Also, PSA came up with the 'PSA Set Registry' five years ago, which is either a way to showcase your sets, or it might cynically be described as a way for rich people to measure the size of their dic....er, collections against one another. The PSA Set Registry is highly popular, and the result of that is people sometimes seem to pay outrageous premiums for slight grade increases or inferior-looking cards just to beef up their set GPA on the Registry. SGC seems to have its market-niche in the pre-war arena. Despite the departure of some of their most well-known graders [most notably, Derek Grady to Mastro] - SGC has more expertise and know-how it seems in grading pre-war material.

Other grading companies abound. GAI was formed by Rocchi and Baker, who were with PSA in the beginning. GAI has been around for three+ years now, and the results seem to be a mixed bag. However you view them - they do not seem to have appreciably stepped upon the market shares of PSA or SGC. Beckett is more of a modern grader - and their cards often sell for the most in the shiny, refractor, game-used modern world of collecting. After those four grading companies - all other grading companies are generally questionable in their ability to either accurately grade or to accurately assess whether or not a card had been altered.

Does that help?

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Isn't the real issue with PSA that with just a little quality control, ie someone knowledgable just looking at each slab before it goes out, most of the "dumb" mistakes would go away? All companies will miss something at some time, I think everyone is upset that PSA doesn't catch the blatant labeling mistakes like the D304 trim, the wrong T206 Honus Wagner, and this thread's example.

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Posted By: Shannon

Quality control would be a good start. I personally will buy cards encased by SGC and GAI before PSA. True PSA probably does bring in a little bit more money if your selling them, but I think SGC and GAi are more accurate.

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Posted By: andy becker

look at the whole picture. while we all focus on prewar, there is a whole other segment of grading newer cards.
i would bet that psa grades at least 20 cards for every one that sgc grades.

since sgc grades mainly vintage cards, they inherently should be better within their niche.

when i consider the raw (total) volume of cards that psa grades AND the diversity of the products that they grade, i actually think they do a pretty good job.

and while we are on the topic....how about gai? they are the worst....bordering on pro.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Someone has too much free time on his hands, again.

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Posted By: Chad

That helps. I think as I delve deeper into this, what I'm going to need to decide is how much the value of a card I'm about to purchase is tied into the card, and how much is tied into peripheral things--is it graded? who's it graded by? is it a card from a set with intense set registry competition and so on. And then, even further, are the perpiheral elements that give a card its value going to hold for the long term. People have collected cards for decades and I don't think people are ever going to stop, but will people get disinterested in registries etc.? I don't know. It's intereting, tho. It's much more complicated than when I was a kid, but I'm ok with that. I'm all grown up now. (Sort of.)

--Chad

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Adam,

Some call it N174, PSA calls it N172 and you probably want to call it an N162... 100 years ago who would have been right?

Go PSA!!!

Who ever mentioned a little quality control is right on the money... you would figure that PSA could hire someone knowledgeable in the area of 19th century material and that person could at least ensure that the labeling for the card designation is correct.

Another PSA bashing thread, no, just another reminder that even PSA hires humans - too bad they don't know much about what they're doing...

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Posted By: JimB

Josh,
Point taken. You are right.
JimB

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Posted By: John_B_California

The PSA bashing gets very, VERY tiring on this board. This feels like a Macintosh board, and PSA is Windows (i.e. The Evil Empire).

They have graded millions and millions of cards (I believe 5-7 million?). Yes, they will make mistakes. It's no different than any other business that botches the occasional high profile product/service.

SGC specializes in pre war, but they don't have 1/4 of the market. Anyone knows that.

I did a quick search and on Ebay right now there are 1290 SGC cards for sale. There are 21,403 PSA cards for sale (that excluded SGC, BGS, SCD in the title). PSA has 17,000 registered sets, SGC has 1,103. That percentage is almost identical to the EBay numbers (.0602 to .0648).

Does anyone have proof that PSA is making more than 16x the number of errors that SGC is making?

John

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

John,

Can you break those PSA and SGC numbers down to Pre 1930 baseball cards? How many for PSA and how many for SGC? Just curious. PSA without a doubt does many more cards than all the others combined.

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Posted By: leon

Just in case you are not aware this is a Pre-WWII vintage baseball card chatboard. When PSA makes high profile mistakes with what we collect, just as SGC or GAI, they will get slammed. Get used to it....or go back to the PSA board....thanks...moderator dude

btw right now on ebay in pre-30's baseball the numbers are:

GAI (116)
PSA (430)
SGC (166)
Other Graders (38)

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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Posted By: T206Collector

GAI (116)
PSA (430)
SGC (166)
Other Graders (38)

So that's about a 2:5 ratio for SGC to PSA on ebay now -- and, as I alluded to earlier, that takes into account the fact that PSA has been at the grading thing much longer and would expect to have a larger market share of the current universe of cards. Based on the current numbers, SGC has to be gaining on PSA. I'd say SGC is doing a very good job of catching up and, if you looked at what both companies were grading now, I'd be interested in hearing about whether collectors are sending more pre-war cards to PSA or SGC.

Again, PSA has definitely graded about a billion 1985 Topps Mark McGwire cards and 1987 Fleer Barry Bonds cards and 1986-87 Fleer Jordan rookies. It's not likely you'll find any stupid mistakes there. Where PSA flubs at a much higher rate than SGC is in the pre-war market -- what we on this board collect. As such, you have to remove the glossy easy to grade stuff from this analysis to get anywhere.

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Posted By: cmoking

Why are you attacking Mr. California? Is there prior history between you two or between Mr. California and this board? Your post seems out of sorts.

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Posted By: cmoking

T206Collector- your logic is bad. Just think about what you said as far as it concerns GAI and any logical person can see your conclusions cannot be derived from the facts.

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Posted By: leon

No bad blood at all. I was only pointing out that if you don't like PSA, SGC, or GAI bashing then this board might not be a good place to be. Overall I think PSA does an ok job but some of their mistakes are pathetic AND there is no way that they know as much about what we collect as SGC does....that's all...regards

BTW, you must have a lot of money wrapped up in PSA plastic, huh?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The 5 Boxers from the 1888 Goodwin Champions set

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Posted By: warshawlaw

1. It is not whether PSA has graded millions and millions of cards--that is a straw man argument. To analogize, McDonalds has served millions and millions of Big Macs; does that excuse their serving me a Filet O Fish labeled a Big Mac? I think not. I am a collector. When I buy a card for my permanent collection, I buy it because it is right, not more marketable. If I buy a graded card I am trusting that grader to take some of the burden off me. How am I supposed to trust the grading on a card that the "expert" cannot even identify correctly?

2. Jeff's point is interesting but I disagree with the apparent underlying rationale. No one debates that PSA's cards generally generate the best market results (although the SGC and GAI graded stuff in some of the current auctions is going to make a very serious run at top dollar billings in many categories, I think). I do not think that anyone can debate either than those results are the product of a complex series of interwoven factors, including advertising and public relations expenditures, dealer, seller and investor agendas, their advantage as first into the market, and consumer perceptions. In other words, I don't see the conclusion that "PSA sells for most because PSA does the best job" as flowing from sales results.

3. The issue I and others raised is that PSA keeps making painfully obvious bush-league mistakes that never, ever would get out if they employed decent quality control, which I am increasingly of the opinion just is not something that they do. I think that it is reasonable to expect the self-appointed top purveyor of a service to perform as flawlessly as reasonably possible. This card and the others that have been flagged aren't reasonable mistakes.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You know what? You guys have convinced me. I can no longer support this PSA company. I just can't do it anymore. I've tried and I've tried and I've tried. This 98th "Bash PSA" thread has finally forced me to take a long, hard look in the mirror and own up to what the truth is: that SGC deserves all of my business and PSA just plain sucks. Thank you for finally helping me see the light...I will be crossing over all of my cards in PSA holders today.

In all seriousness, I don't care about the monthly "Bash PSA" threads as long as it relates to a card that is misholdered or misgraded; after all, that interests all of us. It's the garbage spewing from posters that have an obvious agenda that I think grows tiresome -- and then the plea to have the rest of us swear off PSA forever.

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Posted By: cmoking

I agree, it's clear that PSA has screwed up on a few cards. Those cards are well documented on this board, and it's great info for everyone, including me. Thanks to this board, I have learned alot.

But at the same time, are you saying this is a pro-SGC board and anti-PSA board? If so, please re-title this board. Your statements of "go back to the PSA boards", without a prior interaction with Mr. California, just smells.

"BTW, you must have a lot of money wrapped up in PSA plastic, huh? "

What are you insinuating? Even if I do, what does that mean to you? Are you claiming I am posting to protect the value of my cards? This is a childish statement/question you've made.

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Posted By: leon

This board is what it is...please read the by line at top. Does it say SGC, PSA, or GAI? NO.....it says pre-wwII baseball cards. This board is pro-pre-wwII baseball cards. I have repeatedly, soft handedly, taken up for PSA as they do get bashed a lot. Why? Because they make some stupid mistakes and historically have not corrected them too well. As for my question about the money you have wrapped up in PSA plastic I think it is very much a legit question. If PSA went down, and I am sure they won't, how much would your plastic be worth then? So you do have a vested interest, that was my rationale. AND this is not personal because you seem like a very nice person from the time I met you at the National. This is a friendly debate. ALSO, Mr.California said stuff about this board being VERY tiresome...so I suggested he go back to the PSA board as a favor to him.....and again nothing against him either. This is all just friendly debate about cardboard, imo....best regards

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, if PSA went bankrupt tomorrow the values of its slabbed cards would hardly go down the toilet. Somehow, I suspect that the Registry would be sold to another company and kept as is -- along with the values of PSA graded cards.

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<T206Collector- your logic is bad. Just think about what you said as far as it concerns GAI and any logical person can see your conclusions cannot be derived from the facts.>>

I have no idea what this means. I never said anything about GAI. And the logic I used is pretty basic stuff. What about it do you not understand?

How about this -- what is wrong with the following logic:

You have zero, none, never, not even one example of an SGC flub, do you? Please, enlighten us all with just one example of SGC making even one of the mistakes that PSA makes with unfortunate regularity in the pre-war market.

Ultimately, I agree with Leon: it is obvious that you defend PSA because you have a lot at stake in the well-being of this company.

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Posted By: cmoking

I won't respond further because it will only get my blood pressure up. I can already feel my blood boiling inside me, and it won't do me any good. So I'll leave it at this: your posts has changed my outlook on this forum. Maybe that is good for everyone. Good day.

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Posted By: cmoking

T206 COllector - it means by your logic, GAI, a brand new company in comparison to PSA and SGC - should be overtaking PSA & SGC soon in the near future. I don't think you think that. So that is why I question your logic.

You used this evidence:
GAI (116)
PSA (430)
SGC (166)

...to say that "Based on the current numbers, SGC has to be gaining on PSA. " means you think GAI is gaining on both of them too.

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Posted By: A Rose by any other Name

A Pre-WWII vintage baseball card INVESTMENT chatboard.

Where every card is preferably graded, and has its price.

Great stuff on this board, but don't you think it's time to get out of the denial gig?

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Posted By: T206Collector

Man that would be freakin' sweet!

But seriously, the one thing that I think all graded card collectors should keep in mind is that if you are holding onto cards for the long haul that the company you have your cards in will probably not be around in the same fashion (or at all) for the life of your collections. I would bet there will come a time another company enters the market and encapsulates cards in a fashion that is revolutionary -- a true paradigm shift; the IPOD of vintage baseball cards, if you will -- and then everyone will want their cards graded by them. Then there will be the whole, "Well, my Cobb card was graded by PSA in 1987, but my Mathewson card was graded by SGC in 2004, so the graders were X% accurate, etc."

Basically, collectors will continue to cross cards over into whatever holder is necessary to (1) preserve collections, (2) accurately grade cards and (3) protect investiments. Keep your cards in PSA holders if you will, but their holders look like crap (even Apple upgrades its IPOD every year, even without any real market competition), they do not accurately grade cards and thus they do not protect your investments.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I would say that GAI is gaining on PSA, but I do not know whether they are gaining on SGC, but perhaps. The bottom line is that PSA used to be 100%, SGC was 0% and GAI was 0%. PSA's percentage has dropped significantly and SGC and GAI are gaining, perhaps in equal strides. Do you think all of the people who have gone to SGC and GAI are ignorant? Isn't it more likely that an ignorant collector would go with PSA, based solely on market share?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

T206, thanks for the tip! I'm on it!

So now we've been told this: SGC is better, PSA is awful, it would be sweet if they went bankrupt simply because they make too many errors, and people who submit to PSA do so because they're ignorant.

I'm telling you -- it's a freaking miracle that my law practice allows me to walk, chew gum, eat, breathe, buy PSA-holdered cards and stay out of litigation in Small Claims Court all at the same time!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I could help.

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Posted By: cmoking

T206Collector - I like SGC a lot. For some issues, I prefer the card to already be in a SGC holder rather than in a PSA holder. And when I get those cards graded, I actually send them to SGC rather than PSA. In other issues I want it in a PSA holder rather than any others. That's the way I collect. I'll leave it at that.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I like SGC, too.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but I never get bored of looking at this T206 Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: Wall Street Journal

The mindset is INVESTMENT!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...and certified this chicken scratch (is it any wonder James Spence left?):

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Posted By: T206Collector

Even the card condom couldn't save this card from getting trimmed....

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Posted By: T206Collector

More like EVID TRM



It's more obvoius from the back...

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

If people like SGC better, then by all means they should submit to them. I myself think they are an excellent company. But why is it that people who prefer SGC seem to have a burning need to go out of their way to justify themselves to themselves and/or to others by pointing to PSA mistakes? Why does it bother you so much that other people choose to submit to PSA? EDITED FOR TYPOS

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Posted By: T206Collector

...a majority of people said that PRO was the best place to get graded baseball cards? Personally, I would like to see PSA either go out of business or adjust their business model to keep competition better. The more truly great 3rd party authenticators in the world, the better it will be for the collector.