A new concept....Vintage Baseball Card Forum Auctions?

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Posted By: leon

With all of the talk about how well ebay is doing, and there not being much of an alternative to everyday selling (except BST), would there be any interest in a Vintage Baseball Card Forum Auction, as on ongoing everyday service? There would be a small cost probably based on the seller paying 3%-5% and no buyers fee. It could be for $5 items or $50,000+ items. I have been in talks with a few s/w people about it...lmk your thoughts..It's a long shot and probably not feasible, but ya' never know...Right now it's just an idea.....best regards

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Leon, that's a great idea. Ebay just plain sucks and it would be nice doing auctions with people who know their stuff for a change.

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Posted By: leon

I agree...but would there be enough of an audience? Ebay is huge....

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Posted By: warshawlaw

from how do you regulate who does the bidding to how you determine who wins. Would you let the auctioneers set their own terms and conditions or would they have to adhere to certain standard of practice? How would disputes be resolved and by who? Could the seller "redline" certain people he or she doesn't want to do business with?

Also, why would this be more attractive to a seller than simply listing a card at a best minimum offer?

Does this indicate a trend towards charging sellers a commission on BST sales? Is that in the works?

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Posted By: leon

I understand your thoughts and potential issues. There are many. Without an idea and a need nothing ever happens though. Two ways could be.

1. Sort of like the old Teletrade days...where folks would send in their cards.....
2. Sort of like ebay, with each doing their own thing, but hopefully making more sense.....

I realize this is a very long shot....

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Posted By: leon

I don't want their to be a charge for BST...I like it the way it is..I have had several people bring that up to me....so the answer is No...the auction thing would be different....but again, not sure what the heck right now....

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Posted By: jP

and i would think it could do very well here, so as long as all the bases are covered. i hope this happens.

my collection: http://s102.photobucket.com/albums/m95/obaks/

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Edited - misread your statement leon.

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Posted By: peter chao

Leon,

It's not going to be as easy as it sounds. You will need at least 3 employees. You need a marketing person. You need a web designer and most importantly you need somebody that will sink the money into the project and has some legal expertise.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe D.

my sitehost had free "auction" software and I downloaded it (a while ago).


I thought it would be good to have just in case I, or someone else, wanted to have a little private auction (possibly for even one lot).

I have a couple of cards that a bunch of people have said "If you ever look to sell it - please contact me".... so when I saw this auction software... I thought if the time ever came - the fair way to handle something like that (multiple people wanting first crack at the same item) would be to have a private little auction and invite those interested in the card. (that was the reasoning for downloading it).


Anyway - if you want me to set you up on the site as an admin --- so that you can tinker around with the software, just email me.

here is the software on my site (I've never touched it).

http://www.internetville.com/auction/



If it proves good for you, you can get it for your own servers --- or we could run auctions right off of my site (but I am going to need the help of some of our lawyers to make sure I am not liable for anything).


anyway - if you are interested email me.... joe@internetville.com

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Posted By: Brad

That's a great idea Leon, I'd rather buy/sell cards on this site. It would be my #1 choice when looking for rear cards!

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Posted By: RayB

N54 B/S/T for prewar is one of the best conduits for buying and selling what I collect. Let's not muddy the water.
Leon; I respectfully say no to your idea, flat out. Please don't do it.
Thanks.
RayB

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Posted By: Jason L

count me out!

Leon,
a very good brainstorm...don't see why it has to get out of hand...could you limit the audience to Board members? you would somehow need to register the users that participate...perhaps it could just be used as a means to decide who wins an item,...leave the rest of the transaction out of it (terms mgmt, etc)...??
intriguing!

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

You've got to be kidding me. If your really going to put this together don't post the information on a public forum. Barry Sloat and a host of other guys frequent this forum...they are your competition. Keep it low-key.

Peter

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Posted By: steve f

Would we have to buy a banner from ourselves?.. I'm in

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Posted By: Cat

I wanted to repost this from the Doug Allen thread. I wrote this 11/28/06. I think it is the essence of the problem. It was written specifically to Doug, but I think it is appropriate here. Card buyers are paying for other more complicated and costly parts of the Auction House's product lines. Any mechanism to combat card inflation due to Auciton House fees is a good effort.


Doug:

I would certainly understand if you have vowed to be a lurker in this thread from this point forward. I appreciate your candor and will likely be a Mastro customer in future auctions.

When I say I will "likely" be a customer in future auctions, that qualification has nothing to do with what has been the primary discussion of this thread. What unnerves me is the buyers premium going to 20%. This was touched on a bit, mostly by Jeff Lichtman, but I don't think we were ever given an explanation. I realize you are running a reasonably sized business and really don't OWE an explanation to anybody, but I, for one, have been a decent customer and am concerned about the action. (I looked back in my check register and have spent $50,500 in Mastro auctions since the April, 2005 auction; consigned nothing). My general feeling is that I am being gouged.

You said it yourself...you never expected your $6MM auctions to turn into $12MM auctions. That's outstanding revenue growth, for Mastro, regardless of an increase in the buyers premium. Although I buy pretty freely and pay as much attention to prices as anyone, I do not know how much baseball cards have increased in the last couple years. My instinct is that the overall price increase, in cards, has went up by easily double digits. Even if we assume it is at the low end of double digits..say 10%...which I personally believe is incredibly conservative...that, again, is revenue inflation that most any firm would love to have.

I understand that perhaps the memorbilia side of your business is more complicated. Authentication is more stringent, I suppose. The items may be more obscure and harder to determine the claimed provenance. But this is not the case for cards. When I read the description for the T204 Johnson in the present auction, it was the same (or virtually the same) as the last T204 you sold about one year ago. NO PROBLEM!!! Why reinvent the wheel? But, it serves my point, cards are no more complicated now than they were when Mastro started, so why the increase in buyers premium.

With the revenue growth and revenue inflation that you have had isn't there something that could of been done to meet income goals and leave the buyers premium at a level the market thinks is fair? Your revenue has had staggering growth and you increase the buyers premium on top of that. I've heard you have a top notch office location. GREAT!!! But at some point, you are going to have to look at the cost side of the equation rather than increase costs and pass it to the buyer. (I had to laugh when Jeff Lichtman stated something to extent of "well I guess for the extra 2.5% we get paper tape with the Mastro Logo plastered all over it." Because I just received my card from the October auction about a week prior and that is exactly my thought when I saw your logo on the tape. I know that is petty, but people get that way when they think they are beginning to be treated unfair)

There is a point of diminishing return on the buyers premium....I don't know what that is for the market...but it is approximately 20% for me. Some folks say it doesn't matter just factor it in when you decide what you want to pay. I do that, at times. Other times, I just pay the price, and that's when the increase impacts me. I will tell you, I never even flip a page in a Heritage auction catalog, I just turn a cold shoulder. Their buyers premium has been to high for to long. I hope I don't come to the same final "cold shoulder" conclusion about Mastro.

Some have stated that the increase in buyers premium is simply due to the softening of the charges on the consignment fee. If the buyers premium has increased to offset the decrease in consignment fee, I would like to hear more about that.

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Posted By: Cat

Leon, I sent you an e-mail to your flash.net account.

Cat- can you send it to the lluckey@moredirect.com account?

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Posted By: Wesley

3 - 5% ?

How much does eBay charge?

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I'm warning you Barry is spying on us.

Peter

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Posted By: leon

Do you like ebay? I think they charge about 5%-6%, after it's said and done. And NOW you don't know what the heck is going on?..the idea is that most folks don't like ebay.....they use it as a necessity...I am not saying this will work..I don't know..it's just an idea...

edited to say....I have 15 things listed on ebay right now....besides bst it's the only game in town...

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Posted By: steve f

peter, don't worry about Barry. He's jammed up trying to answer Seinfeld trivia in another thread.

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Posted By: leon

I have been talking to Barry about this already...before I posted. This isn't meant to encroach on major auction houses...it's meant to be a daily outlet, that could be better and safer than ebay....Most likely this particular thread is as far as it will go....Like I said it's just a thought...don't shoot me yet..

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Posted By: Wesley

I have not sold cards recently on ebay. When I used to sell cards on ebay, some were higher than expected and some were lower. Overall, I thought it was ok.

As a buyer, I am a big fan of ebay. There always seems to be cards to buy. Usually the cards offered are not particularly rare but occasionally there is good stuff on there.

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Posted By: Denny

I think that the accountability side of the idea is worth it alone. Leon, I do hope this ends up happening. Many Pre War Collectors would benefit from this alternative & I don't see why the BST would have to go away. I see this project as another option, not an end to the BST. Lot of work to do, ya never though....I would love to help, if it were possoble!?

Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I like the idea....buying cards on ebay is safe if you know the seller and most of us do know the sellers. Not so safe when we don't know who we're buying from... Why not cut ebay out of the profits and do it ourselves? A typical ebay auction for a t-206 card may get 100-200 hits...I don't think it's out of line to say that there are far more posters+lurkers on this board. It's not like T206 commons are going to sell for a buck a piece. I think it's safe to say that most items will get fair market value here.

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Posted By: Cat

Thanks Leon.

Sent to the moredirect.com account.

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Posted By: leon

Here's one of them....how good is this? Who knows what the heck is happening...either it's a shill or someone unknowingly is going to be very unhappy....

http://cgi.ebay.com/TY-COBB-RED-TY-COBB-BACK_W0QQitemZ140071587250QQihZ004QQcategoryZ86840 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140071587250

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Leon -
I think its a great idea. My opinion would be to start with a small one first and see how it goes before taking on a larger one. That way we could work out the bugs and grow from there.

Tony Andrea

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Leon, I have one suggestion that should be in the forum rules....all links that are longer than the screen should be given a tinyurl so you don't have to scroll left to right to read the thread. I know this is going to be a long one and I hate having to scroll to read threads.

here is the same auction link you provided above, but converted to a tinyurl:

http://tinyurl.com/y3csua

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Posted By: peter chao

Leon,

If it's somebody continuously bidding at this early stage it's a shill.

Peter

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Posted By: Denny

bbcardsareme? So, Why doesn't he know much about cards? Whats the bb stand for, Big Balls!

Denny Walsh

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve does have me tied up with Seinfeld questions I can't answer. He may force me to bring out the heavy artillery...nevertheless, to respond to Peter and others, Leon and I have discussed this and I have been extremely supportive of it. Not only do I not feel threatened, but I would be happy to work with Leon. I don't think his plan is to open his own auction house, but to provide another avenue similar to ebay for people who are tired of selling there. The key is the complicated software; and as I told him, there are still many vintage collectors who don't know about this board, so he would have to do a lot of advertising. I think it's an excellent idea and I think he should pursue it until or unless it just is no longer feasible.

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Posted By: bigfish

Leon,
great idea. I think it would be a great resource for buyers and sellers

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Posted By: John S

I am for giving it a try.

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Posted By: peter chao

Barry,

I'm glad your on board...if your in I'm in. At least I'm a buyer.

Peter

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Posted By: E, Daniel

My only suggestion would be for a 'No Paypal' payment approach. The first deal that went south involving a paypal payment, and subsquent charge back - then freezing of accounts etc etc...would jamn this board with complaints and be an instant death knell for the whole thing.
If you have the money to buy an item, then it shouldn't be too hard to issue a money order that can be tracked for banking purposes, cancelled for non-arrival, and makes it clear if payment has been successful. Perhaps included could be a standard method of shipping that at the very least required full insurance, signature confirmation, and priority shipping.

And re Adam's queston of "why would this be more attractive to a seller than simply listing a card at a best minimum offer?", I think the answer would simply be the possibility of much higher return. Quite often a Seller sells a card at discount for benefit of the board community and hoping that such largesse will find its way back to them when they go to buy something....adding an auction process would just be alot cleaner way to manage the selling and do what is fair to both buyer and seller. That is, the card will go for actual market value.
I also think there is a huge benefit to buyers, giving everyone a more level playing field to find scarce material, regardless of their ability to check BST 100 times a day.

JMO

Daniel

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Posted By: dstudeba

So I guess with the advertising needed, and the bidders needed, it would be wise to change the url of the site from http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652 to something that is a little easier to find?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'll really be pissed the first time someone outs a Net54 auction placed in the wrong category!

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Posted By: leon

I don't know the answer to that question.... It would be nice to have a url everyone knew....but we'll see...

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i think this is a very good idea...

OR, how about a semi-annual live auction?

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Posted By: Brad

No Pay-Pal! are you kidding? It's just to "Convenient" plus I'd want my card shipped out ASAP!

You should be given options of payment M.O. Pay-pal ect....(just like eBay!)

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Posted By: Wesley

Paypal is very convenient, but the Paypal fees will cut into the auction listing fees in a hurry.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Brad, convenience is one thing, but the reason Paypal is such a problem is because their 'remedy' solution is absoutely awful. It is completely in the favour of the buyer, can result in the sellers account being frozen - which prohibits you from continuing to use their services you may need for your regular ebay habit, and just basically stinks. Imagine the process and the airing of dirty laundry with a sale gone wrong involving paypal on a Net54 Auction site. It's bad enough when you are dealing with a complete stranger, but think about it being one of the regular posters, and then after everything goes bad on a transaction you have to read their posts and desperately refrain from flaming them at every second......
Disagreements will arise regardless of payment, but adding a third party who has no real interest in 'making things right' between buyers and sellers - would in my opinion be hell.

Still, just an opinion and I would still love the auction concept to be attempted.

Daniel

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Posted By: Joann

I think it's an awesome idea. I was trying to mentally wrestle with something similar last night - trying to figure out if there could be some kind of hybrid between ebay and BST.

I like ebay/auction because I sometimes don't know where exactly to set a price, or something on BST hasn't sold b/c it's not niche to someone here.

My opinions - FWIW:

1) Not to replace BST, but to provide an ebay alternative that retains bidder id's and is vintage focused.

2) Ongoing, not scheduled, just like ebay. Seller sets up and runs each auction just like ebay - not sending in cards anywhere or consigning. That's what makes ebay different from every other auction house - seller sets it up, runs it, no third parties to handle cards or admin auctions. The only third party is the software provider (like ebay).

3) Caveat emptor, just like BST and ebay. Ebay isn't liable for the routine squabbles - don't know why it would be an issue here.

4) Fees similar to ebay - about 5%. I think that's fair. It brings in enough to maintain the site without getting too deeply into commercial/profit issues.

5) I'm not sure about the need to advertise and bring in a whole new audience. There are many posters and lurkers here. Why not just put it out there, let people start using it, and see what happens? What if there isn't a "big new audience"? How much would that matter, and at what point? I bet it would get plenty of audience after a short time.

6) No PayPal? Wha? Huh? OMG heck no. See number 1 above. Keep it simple and familiar, and the last thing we need is a lot of board rules. lol. I can just imagine. Yikes. That'd make the politics and religion threads look like idle chit-chat.

Great idea overall.

J

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Posted By: Brad

E, Daniel,

OK I see your point, it really should be up to the seller on how he/she would like payment.

High dollar items: No doubt, who wants to use pay-pal (The seller would have to make in very clear about payment, M.O. ONLY!)

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Posted By: Josh Adams

I respectfully think this is a very bad decision, and could lead to an avalance of unintended consequences.

I suggest we leave things as they are. The B/S/T board is working rather well, in my view.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joann made a good point that I shared with Leon. Although there are still many collectors who don't know about this board, there are so many serious ones here that it is hard to imagine any vintage item not reaching its full potential. But even I would want to start with a few small items to test the market. Still worth kicking around.

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Posted By: Bob

Leon- I'd be in favor of it. The only thing I worry about is the audience. I try whenever I can to put a card on the 54 Board first to give people here first crack at a card but lately I have had had some cards on the BST thread that went nowhere and when I put them on ebay they were snatched up within 24 hours by non-54 buyers.
tbob

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Posted By: Mark

Dan, that's a great idea about changing the site's url, and advertising more in general, so more bidders can find it. Perhaps the costs of advertising could be covered by charging a nominal monthly n54 membership fee a la cardpricer.

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Posted By: JimB

I would be interested to hear the details of how it would operate, but in principal I am all for it.
JimB