Slightly OT: Could the Braves and Indians be next?

[Rich Klein]

And I'm posting this because teams such as the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians may be next

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/busin...ise/index.html

Now, I'm ALL in favor of the important National discussion about this but as I noted on my FB page, you can't change the almost 90 year history now can we?

And does that mean eBay may pull a similar move in the near future?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/re...mes/index.html

[packs]

Why can't you change the name? Because it's been a while? The Washington Bullets aren't the Bullets anymore. The Devil Rays aren't the Devil Rays anymore. The Mighty Ducks aren't the Mighty Ducks. The Yankees aren't the Highlanders anymore either.

[Case12]

I have seen "Washington Warriors' floated around, going back to the spear and feather logo of the 60's....looks good to me.

Braves is different. They have worked hard with American Indians to craft the right logo and message. They still struggle with whether to stop the Tomahawk chant, and don't pass out foam tomahawks anymore. (I remember as a kid going to games and seeing Chief Knock-a-homa come out of his tent in the stands....that was so cool).

Cleveland Indians - whatever. Their football team is the Cleveland Browns- dull. (No disrespect to Cleveland).

[vintagetoppsguy]

Personally, I think the Redskins should keep their name and just change their logo to a red skin potato.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Personally, I think the Redskins should keep their name and just change their logo to a red skin potato.

Love it. How about Washington Senators or Nationals?

[Case12]

Note 60's logo. I think it's cool and stays with historical team. Washington Warriors'.

[olecow]

All I know is that my all time favorite uniforms in ANY sport are the Boston/Milwaukee Braves unis from the late 40's to the early 60's (gotta have the tomahawk). I wear my Mitchell and Ness Hank Aaron and Eddie Mathews jerseys proudly, and I don't mean to offend anyone. They're just beautiful uniforms.

And the Blackhawks have the best sweater in hockey.

[Case12]

Chief Knock-a-homa. (BTW, he is still alive...and agrees with Redskins name change. But thinks Braves and Indians are fine).

[Case12]

Grew up in Atlanta with this. As a kid, I loved it.

[david_l]

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

[drcy]

I think they should change the names. But that's just my opinion.

I also think they will.

[KMayUSA6060]

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

[Natswin2019]

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

With that being said, I'm tired of fighting it. Change the name, I don't give a damn. If it makes someone else sleep better at night because they associate a team name and cartoon with some sort of racism/oppression, let them have that. I will still continue to wear my Indians gear and go to ball games. Of course I'd buy some new gear, too, but I'm not depriving my future kids of baseball because of a team name/logo.

The Cleveland Spiders were the first professional baseball team in Cleveland (not associated with the Cleveland Indians franchise), and that is reportedly an option. Some people want a team name associated with the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame (The Cleveland Rocks or something like that). Whatever they do, don't half ass it. Make it badass, and let's move on.

I don't give a flying hoot about the Redskins either. Quite frankly, I don't see a bunch of people traveling to the Dakotas to protest on the behalf of Native Americans. A team name and logo hardly fight for anything substantial. They think it's the way people think that they need to change but it's really the system (I personally don't believe the people in this country are as racist as the media leads us to believe). A team name and logo don't touch the system. But whatever.

Can we play ball already? We need a break from all the BS as a society.

Well stated. People never seem to be able to just move on from the crap in society.
Play ball everyone and enjoy your life! There are always MUCH bigger problems...

[buymycards]

Why do we need nicknames? Isn't "Cleveland" enough? People can figure it out.

[bbcard1]

I don't think the Braves and Indians HAVE to change their name as it is a people and not a degrading term, but I think they probably will. I think Notre Dame Fighting Irish will probably also and Washington & Lee is having a horrible time figuring out what to do.

[Case12]

Washington Smurfs

[pclpads]

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

[Natswin2019]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

They've been talking about changing the Redskins name in the DC area for probably the last 10 years at different levels of seriousness. It's not exactly a new topic of conversation for us at least.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Changing the Indians almost seems like a backfire of a move to me. Their name was changed from the Spiders informally at first (as often happened in the early days) to honor their best player Louis Sockalexis a Penobscot Indian and was later formally adopted by the team. I'd rather see more of an emphasis on honoring the man than forgetting what, in this case, is a positive history.

Redskins however is a derogatory term and I am all for changing it.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

And I'm posting this because teams such as the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians may be next

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/08/busin...ise/index.html

Now, I'm ALL in favor of the important National discussion about this but as I noted on my FB page, you can't change the almost 90 year history now can we?

And does that mean eBay may pull a similar move in the near future?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/us/re...mes/index.html

The Atlanta Braves have made it clear they are not going to change. Now we have these idiots wanting to deface Stone Mountain! When is this bullshit going to end? Enough is enough!!

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Natswin2019

I saw someone mention that they should change the Redskins to the Redwolves because it's the nick name for an elite navy helicopter squadron, you can keep some so of native american thing going cause wolves are important in native culture, wolves are just cool animals, and the defense can have a cool nick name in wolf pack. They could also keep the same color scheme with the red and gold.

Also the Washington Redwolves just sounds really cool

How about the Washington Wanabes seeing how they have only won 3 playoff games since their SuperBowl in 1991? Sorry, just being sarcastic.... All of this name changing is just a bunch of garbage, period... People, get a life and move on with your freaking lives

[rats60]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Welcome to the brave, new world of PC, where anybody and everybody can get their panties in a twist and take offense over anything - and everything - that possesses them. We can blame / trace all these proposed team name changes to the actions of that murderous, dumb ass, effing cop in Minneapolis. That was the so called straw that broke the camel's back. This is just an extension of that knee on the neck murder.

How would you like to have all of your property confiscated by the government and be confined on a reservation and not allowed to leave? It has nothing to do with PC. Native Americans don’t want their names and imagery used by a group of people who has treated them poorly for 400 years. How about changing the name to the Washington Blackskins and have a white guy dressed up in black face on the sideline. Would that be ok?

[toppcat]

Spiders would be great, seems to be a possible pick so maybe....

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Love it. How about Washington Senators or Nationals?

I think the Washington Corruptos would be more appropriate in a salute to the governing bodies.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm bothered by the inconsistency of the argument. If we want to be this sensitive about things, then the Vikings and Celtics need to change their names and logos too as they both feature racial stereotypes and caricatures. It's a very selective outrage mostly among people who don't seem to be watching these teams or were fans of them to begin with.

Further, that the Indians were named such in direct honor of a particular individual who was popular with the fans and his former teammates and now must cease to honor him and change their name to be PC strikes me as amusing.

If we try hard enough, we can be offended by anything, from the Cleveland Indians to statues of even famed abolitionists. I am not a fan of the broader cultural shift that one who claims offense becomes automatically right because they claimed offense, and it is expected that everyone else must share or express sympathy with their view or they are branded some kind of 'ist'.

You do realize that if a population isn't marginalized they don't care if you use them as a mascot or a nickname. It's not a double standard unless there's a double standard in how the group in question is treated in the first place. If Native Americans had no other complaints then there likely would be no issue with the nicknames. Unless you feel the Golden Girls was discriminatory I don't think there are many Norwegians in the Northern plains who feel they've been systemically victimized by society.

[Angyale]

Something to think about going back in history for a name.

Angyale

[tjb1952tjb]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm bothered by the inconsistency of the argument. If we want to be this sensitive about things, then the Vikings and Celtics need to change their names and logos too as they both feature racial stereotypes and caricatures. It's a very selective outrage mostly among people who don't seem to be watching these teams or were fans of them to begin with.

Further, that the Indians were named such in direct honor of a particular individual who was popular with the fans and his former teammates and now must cease to honor him and change their name to be PC strikes me as amusing.

If we try hard enough, we can be offended by anything, from the Cleveland Indians to statues of even famed abolitionists. I am not a fan of the broader cultural shift that one who claims offense becomes automatically right because they claimed offense, and it is expected that everyone else must share or express sympathy with their view or they are branded some kind of 'ist'.

+1

[G1911]

Deleted for ElCabron's comfort

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by packs

Why can't you change the name? Because it's been a while? The Washington Bullets aren't the Bullets anymore. The Devil Rays aren't the Devil Rays anymore. The Mighty Ducks aren't the Mighty Ducks. The Yankees aren't the Highlanders anymore either.

Also, the Alleghenies aren't the Alleghenies and the Innocents aren't the Innocents.

[arcadekrazy]

Obligatory post of a card. I’m not a t206 guy, but I am attracted to the rarity of this beauty. Alas, As with the other rare beauties I’ve been attracted to in my life, I don’t have one of these either.

[ValKehl]

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters.

[Case12]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters.

And the cheering crowd would chant.......:-)

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

The Atlanta Braves could simply go back to using the franchise's original name, the Beaneaters.

And instead of the tomahawk chop and chant, the fans could all just fart in appreciation of their beloved Beaneaters. A fitting tribute to this name-change trend.

[packs]

I find it endlessly ironic that people will get so bent out of shape about two teams changing their names who aren't even going by the original names of the franchises anymore. Because the original names WERE CHANGED.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by david_l

Until some of you experience genocide, cultural annihilation, years of reneged promises and treaties, and overt racism I just don’t think you’ll get it. Here’s hoping for a change though.

The only part of your post that is factual is the reneged promises and treaties, of which nobody alive today had any involvement.

Indian tribes were butchering and scalping each other long before Europeans arrived on the scene. If genocide was the goal, it was a miserable failure. There are far more people alive today with Indian ancestry than in 1800, with far greater life expectancy.

The only reason we know of great Indian leaders like Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse is because of the written English language, and photography. The reason we know virtually nothing about the great Indians of 500 or more years past, is that the Indians weren't able to record their history until Europeans began documenting it for them. Indian words are memorialized forever in the names of our cities, states, rivers, lakes, etc.

As we know, several Indians were in the Big Leagues going back to the turn of the last century, and generally, they were extremely popular. In fact, Cleveland's team was named after one of them. Overt racism at some point in distant history, sure. But no one alive today was involved in the Indian wars. That was other people in another time.

[packs]

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Have you ever been to a reservation? You are familiar with the Trail of Tears?

Yes, the Trail of Tears was a bad thing that happened 170 years ago. Nobody alive today is to blame for it and nobody alive today was forced from their homeland.

I have been to a Blackfoot reservation in Montana when I was young (to visit my uncle and his family,) I'm aware of the poverty in reservations near Grants, New Mexico, and I go to the racetrack/casino, Canterbury Park, in Shakopee MN, where My buddies and I stable our racehorse for the summer. There is a Sioux reservation there, and it might dispel your assumptions to learn this:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lion-year.html

There's little need for any member of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe to work. Each adult in the 460-person American Indian nation receives more than $1million a year - for doing nothing.Aug 12, 2012

Inside the richest native American tribe in the U.S. where casino profits pay $1m a year to EVERY member

Payouts coming out of the money the Shakopee Mdewakanton Tribe makes through its highly profitable casinos

About 460 people live within the tribe

Between Mystic Lake and the Little Six Casino - tribal revenues are thought to be nearly $1.4billion

[packs]

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by packs

Everyone who lives on a reservation today was forced from their homeland. I think you have a myopic view of history.

That is like saying everyone alive today walked out of Africa. It's silly.

[packs]

Except it's not the same thing at all because we're talking about something concrete. You said you have an understanding of reservations. So if your family was forcibly relocated there from your actual home, and you still live there, how else do you explain your presence?

[Mark17]

My presence anywhere began the day I was born.

[byrone]

"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."

"Satchel" Paige

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Changing the Indians almost seems like a backfire of a move to me. Their name was changed from the Spiders informally at first (as often happened in the early days) to honor their best player Louis Sockalexis a Penobscot Indian and was later formally adopted by the team. I'd rather see more of an emphasis on honoring the man than forgetting what, in this case, is a positive history.

The Sockalexis story has been discredited:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevel...ce_of_the_name

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

As an Indians fan and Northeast Ohio native, I don't understand the push for the name change. I didn't see the need to remove Chief Wahoo, either. I grew up with Chief Wahoo, and thought the color was red because the Indians colors are Red, White, and Blue. I never once associated it with skin color. I've been called a racist for supporting Chief Wahoo/the Indians, but how is it racist when I don't see skin color/race?

Presumably it's been explained to you why the Chief Wahoo imagery was considered racist and offensive - exaggerated caricature features (giant eyes, giant nose, etc) and red skin that are drawn directly from insulting/offensive stereotypes of Native Americans.

The fact you "don't see color/race" doesn't change really change anything. The design of the mascot and imagery was based on negative racial stereotypes.

Now, given that the mascot was based on offensive/negative stereotypes and, yes, that is undeniable, do you now understand why it needed to be removed?

[howard38]

/

[Republicaninmass]

Scotch tape
..next on the list

Using a tartan?

[Beansballcardblog]

I knew I shouldn’t read this thread, yet I did.

Dang you, Rich! We gonna have to talk next time I see you!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by howard38

Sockalexis was never close to being the best player on the team either.

You mean the guy who played less than half the team's games in 1897, while hitting 45 points below the team leader wasn't the team's best player? Maybe it was the 28 games of .236 hitting the next two years that sealed the deal.