Do you agree with PSA on this card?

[npa589]

I've had this card for a few months now and want anyone's opinion on it. Ya'll know a lot more than me. I've been in this for only 4 months.

I've compared its size with over 100 T206 cards that I have and have noticed a couple things. The Tinker is taller than some, and if it is taller, it is thinner by like 1/32nd of an inch. Many cards it is the same exact size from left to right, AND is taller. There are several that the Tinker is equal to, regarding top to bottom size, and there are only a few where the Tinker is actually shorter from top to bottom. There are many that the Tinker is the exact same size as.

Scans:

[milkit1]

to me it does look a bit short on the right side but its still a real nice card

[npa589]

I definitely agree with you on that. I've also compared it to 100s of other T206 cards, and it is the same size from left to right as a lot that received grades. It's also taller than most cards I have that have been given a grade.

I've looked at the corners/edges with microscopes, and I have a hard time finding evidence of a trim. Believe me, I'm actually trying to convince myself that it is "A".

BTW, there is nothing weird in the top left corner. That is all the scan. The corners are even sharper than they appear in the scan.

I wonder if this was submitted at too low a level, and the graders just assumed it had to have been trimmed. It's either an "A" or an 8.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Crack and resubmit, probably come back a 7 or 8 it happens all the time.

[Ladder7]

Nate, Looks a bit washed out. Alteration could be bleach or detergent.

[novakjr]

It could just be the scan, but the top edger appears to be a little more crisp than the others. Anyways, altered could mean any number of things. Maybe the card was touched up, chemically cleaned? It may have even been pressed and then trimmed all around, so that it still met the size requirements. Hell, it may have simply been pressed so that the corners and edges looked better, without having to trim it. Those last two could be very hard to tell with it still being slabbed.

I'll go with the Chief on this one though, crack it and re-submit. What have you got to lose?

[npa589]

Good point Steve. That's the one thing I think it could have been. I just can't see that it was trimmed. Though it may be a faulty argument, if I were to play devil's advocate to that thought, as I have done so already, I've thought that - if a card is this fresh or if it was simply a factory problem, than the washed out look could be attributed to the factory as versus recent human hands. I know there are plenty of cards that have weird coloring errors. So, if this was just a card that was printed at a slightly different size than other cards - then perhaps the coloring was different as well. I dunno.

Regardless, I've also thought that if the only thing that was done to it was a bleach job - I still have a heck of a card here if the corners/edges are this intact after 100 years.

I think ya'll are right though - crack and resubmit time. Might be the type of card I could crack and resubmit a few times.

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Nate, Looks a bit washed out. Alteration could be bleach or detergent.

[npa589]

Thanks for the info - I never thought of it being pressed. Never really knew that as a possibility (I'm new to this to say the least).

I think it is definitely the scan. I might use my camera when I get home and put it on a picture hosting site so that you can see it in more detail.


Thanks for all the comments - much appreciated.

Nate

Originally Posted by novakjr

It could just be the scan, but the top edger appears to be a little more crisp than the others. Anyways, altered could mean any number of things. Maybe the card was touched up, chemically cleaned? It may have even been pressed and then trimmed all around, so that it still met the size requirements. Hell, it may have simply been pressed so that the corners and edges looked better, without having to trim it. Those last two could be very hard to tell with it still being slabbed.

I'll go with the Chief on this one though, crack it and re-submit. What have you got to lose?

[fkw]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Nate, Looks a bit washed out. Alteration could be bleach or detergent.

I agree, Im thinking chemical soaked,...... or maybe recolored??

[scottglevy]

Top edge looks a bit concerning to me. Esp. the top left corner. Bottom of the card and sides look fine. I'm in the 'what do you have to lose' camp though.

Even though I'd bet it's trimmed....it's certainly worth the very minimal cost for a second opinion. Just make sure to crack the card out of the case first to get a fair eval.

Best,
Scott

P.S. One way to know a bit better is to see if the 'natural roll' of the paper (vs. a choppy inconsistency border or edge) appears on the card.

[JamesGallo]

I know the card market does not like any restor work, but I doubt a professional pressing could be detected. The comic grading company CGC can not detect when a comic is pressed so I see no reason why PSA could.

I would suspect a chemical cleaning if it is not trimmed. I would say crack it bring it to SGC at a show to do on site grading if they think it was altered you can at least find out what they think is wrong by asking the graders.

James G

[David W]

Doesn't PSA say why they think it is altered when they slab it?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

I know the card market does not like any restor work, but I doubt a professional pressing could be detected. The comic grading company CGC can not detect when a comic is pressed so I see no reason why PSA could.

I would suspect a chemical cleaning if it is not trimmed. I would say crack it bring it to SGC at a show to do on site grading if they think it was altered you can at least find out what they think is wrong by asking the graders.

James G

I think they test the thickness of the stock. A professionally pressed card would still be thinner all around.

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by novakjr

I think they test the thickness of the stock. A professionally pressed card would still be thinner all around.

Seriously you think PSA tests the thickness of a card!!!


First, off how the hell do they do that??

Second, how do they know it was't soaked and sitting under a pile of books.

Third, I really don't think it would be thinner, perhaps since it is layered paper but I really don't see any way PSA could test this.

James G

[lharri3600]

Nope,
sgc and beckett puts a sticker on telling you what the problem is. Psa should do the same. That way they can save themselves from harsh remarks from submitters.

Originally Posted by david w

doesn't psa say why they think it is altered when they slab it?

[bunst]

sgc and beckett puts a sticker on telling you what the problem is. Psa should do the same. That way they can save themselves from harsh remarks from submitters

Really? A card I just got back from SGC as Authentic gave no explanation what was wrong. Would be nice to know so that I can see the problem for myself.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by bunst

sgc and beckett puts a sticker on telling you what the problem is. Psa should do the same. That way they can save themselves from harsh remarks from submitters

Really? A card I just got back from SGC as Authentic gave no explanation what was wrong. Would be nice to know so that I can see the problem for myself.

SGC only slabs if trimmed or color enhanced; in the instance of color enhanced that I had, it was noted on the 'check submission status' page on their site.

[chaddurbin]

with all the TPG's scrutinizing and questioning seems like there's a need for a 4th-party assessment...could be good business (maybe there's one already that i'm not aware of).

[steve B]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

Seriously you think PSA tests the thickness of a card!!!


First, off how the hell do they do that??

Second, how do they know it was't soaked and sitting under a pile of books.

Third, I really don't think it would be thinner, perhaps since it is layered paper but I really don't see any way PSA could test this.

James G

Very simply. Digital readout calipers are down to $20 now, and under $100 for a really nice one. In the old days a micrometer would have been used. same as the paper mills do to ensure consistent quality.

Given a good sampling of known original cards it would be easy to establish a proper range of thickness just like there's a proper size range.

I have a caliper, and I could probably get a hard number based on my collection if anyones really interested.

Steve B

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by steve B

Very simply. Digital readout calipers are down to $20 now, and under $100 for a really nice one. In the old days a micrometer would have been used. same as the paper mills do to ensure consistent quality.

Given a good sampling of known original cards it would be easy to establish a proper range of thickness just like there's a proper size range.

I have a caliper, and I could probably get a hard number based on my collection if anyones really interested.

Steve B

Thank You Steve.

[JamesGallo]

Originally Posted by steve B

Very simply. Digital readout calipers are down to $20 now, and under $100 for a really nice one. In the old days a micrometer would have been used. same as the paper mills do to ensure consistent quality.

Given a good sampling of known original cards it would be easy to establish a proper range of thickness just like there's a proper size range.

I have a caliper, and I could probably get a hard number based on my collection if anyones really interested.

Steve B

Steve

I was not aware of this, how fine do these things go. Would it measure paper thin cards like Cracker Jacks or just layered cards.

That being said just because there is a way to do it doesn't mean PSA does it.

They miss so much stuff at times, I find is extremely unlikely they are doing a thickness test on every or any card.

Just my opinion.

Seems they spend about a 1 minute grading a card so if they were doing a thickness test that would mean they are spending even less then a minute grading a card.

I am also not convinced that professionally pressing a card would make it thinner, pushing it out with a spoon yes, but careful equal pressure I don't know.

James G

[steve B]

My $20 calipers will measure to within 5/10,000 ths of an inch. Meaning that the 1/1,000ths can be trusted, so .001 inches. A human hair is usually around .002, and printer paper .003. The measuring time is only a few seconds.
I can't say that PSA or any grading company measures, but they could. Especially if the card is suspect for other reasons, or nice enough to be worth checking. Grade 1-3 no, 4-6 with super nice corners maybe, 7-10 I'd hope so.
There's also software that will make some very close measurements based on a scan, and a scan around 1200 DPI will show loads of detail easier than using a 40X loupe.

I measured a a handful of T206s and all of them are .012
I'm doing a project of doing high res scans of all mine, I'll take measurements of the raw ones while I'm at it.

There is a difference between moderate even pressure like you'd use after soaking and higher force similar to the spooning that could be used to thin/spread the card. In the soaking the card swells with absorbed water and gentle pressure keeps it flat as it dries. Soak the card and use higher force and it will thin and spread. Think pie crust- Set a plate on a lump of it and it might compress a bit. Use a roller and it will make a nice thin crust. (Push real hard or roll more, and you've got Baklavah or french pastry....Yes, I'm a bit hungry for dessert just now)

Steve B