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  #1  
Old 11-12-2007, 09:09 PM
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Posted By: Joann

Well, the November 10 deadline that MEARS set has come and gone. Recall that MEARS had published a list of policies that they will use in 2008 in terms of accepting business from auction houses. The policy listed such things as requiring the auction house to divulge ownership in lots, to disclose ANY prep work done on a card before grading, to keep records of bidding to help prevent shilling, etc.

In short, it outlined the very things that many on this board have said are desperately needed to help this hobby retain credibility. I'll post the links to the policy when I get a minute to dig them up.

MEARS said they will not do ANY business in 2008 - meaning any business - with any auction house that had not agreed (by November 10) to adhere to the new policy. This company flat out put its money where its mouth is.

As of the deadline, only one auction house agreed to adhere to the policy and thus be eligible to send items to MEARS for authenication in 2008. That company is REA. Therefore, it seems from this article on the MEARS website that REA is the only auction house from which MEARS will accept any business in 2008.

http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=336

Well, this is something I believe in, and it's the first action I've seen in which a major player has put itself on the line to do something right. If MEARS put its money where its mouth is, so I guess I can too.

OK. I know that I don't have a whole lot of money with which to try to make a statement. Me putting my foot down and not bidding in certain auctions is kind of like me putting my foot down and refusing to stay at the Ritz. Just won't, dammit! lol But I can only do what I can do, and I'm going to at least do that.

So in 2008 I'm not going to bid in any auction except REA. It's not like I win a lot or spend a lot in some of these, but I do like a few of the other houses fairly well and have won from them in the past here and there. But only REA, at least for 2008. If MEARS can make a big statement, then I guess I can make a small one.

The article linked says that MEARS sent their letter to the auction houses named. I am unclear as to whether MEARS will accept 08 business from a house that did not receive the letter and also did not accept the policy. If anyone can clear this up, I'd appreciate it. I don't know where that leaves some of the auction houses that did not get the letter from MEARS explaining the new policy and setting the deadline.

And as to them expanding the policy beyond memorabilia and to include cards, I have zero problem with that. The same general principles apply, so why not demand good practices across the board. Someone had to do it.


J

Edited to make it less choppy, and then edited again to fix the DANG link that got all corrupted when I edited the first time.

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  #2  
Old 11-13-2007, 04:08 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- a question:

Mears' work in evaluating and authenticating game used bats, uniforms, and other equipment is extremely important, as so much of this kind of material offered for sale is questionable. When I see a bat that the seller claims was used by Mel Ott, I have to tell you I don't have a clue.

But if I choose not to sign up with Mears, and I have a card in my auction graded and authenticated by SGC, are you telling me that does not offer you the confidence you need to place a bid? If not, please explain.

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  #3  
Old 11-13-2007, 04:46 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joann,

Hooray for you! Hopefully this can be a launching pad to clean up the hobby and that other auction houses will follow the lead of Rob. If not, hopefully collectors will step up and like you boycott those that do not.

Barry,

Without going back to the MEARS letter, I believe their requirements had to do with many things beyond the actual grade of the card including disclosure of ownership, bidding information and alterations to the product done by the auction house or that the auction house was aware of.

This is not primarily directed to the grading companies but to the auction houses and their dubious practices.

Jim

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:04 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Disclosure of ownership? Does that mean the auction house is obligated to reveal the names of their consignors? Isn't that confidential information?

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  #5  
Old 11-13-2007, 05:24 AM
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Posted By: ps

I think Jim means they should disclose when the person who is purporting to authenticate an item also owns it and/or when the auction house itself owns the item.

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  #6  
Old 11-13-2007, 05:36 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

That makes more sense. But can every auction house be trusted to reveal that information honestly?

I'm just trying to differentiate between was is theoretically possible in terms of ethics, and what is practical in the real world.

Mears claims they will audit auction houses to determine if any shill bidding is taking place. Couldn't I or anyone else set up a dummy account for Joe Schmo of Hannibal, Mo. (like the cute rhyme?) and have him bid on every lot in the auction? Again, I like Mears' attempt to take accountability to the next level, but I just don't know how practical it all is.

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Old 11-13-2007, 05:53 AM
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Posted By: ps

I think it is unrealistic to "audit" for shill bidding.

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Old 11-13-2007, 06:47 AM
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Posted By: jay wolt

Was MEARS the company that had the Dimaggio 56 streak bat
that drew some controversary a year or 2 ago?
A) about its authenticity and B) about them owning it prior to auction?

Kinda foggy on the specifics as I vaguely remember the details.
If someone can illuminate me on this it would be appreciated.

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  #9  
Old 11-13-2007, 06:51 AM
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Posted By: Marc S.

Why would ANY auction company hand over its consignor lists and bidding records to MEARS? That is the one valuable differentiator that any auction house has -- and I cannot imagine that auction houses would willingly turn over this proprietary and sensitive data to MEARS for auditing purposes. Hell -- I'm a former auditor...and it was tough getting companies to release such data, even when required by law. As much as I applaud MEARS' efforts to clean up the hobby, they seem to have taken a holier-than-thou approach to all this, and it is unsurprising to me that their appeals received such a tepid response.

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  #10  
Old 11-13-2007, 07:01 AM
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Posted By: Paul Moss

While this stance by Mears might seem to be lofty and noble, the fact of the matter is that this is one of the most illconceived and unrealistic platforms I could possibly imagine.

Let's see. Mears wants to conduct audits of the auction houses? What!! a for-profit enterprise wants to go through the records of another business purportedly to see if they are on the level, and this just to allow the auction house to do business with them? Riiigghhhtt! There's the door buddy!

So REA signed on the dotted line. Good for him. Yet I fail to comprehend why it should bother anyone whether a lot is house owned or other party consigned. What difference does it really make? I've seen the posts bemoaning the fact that buyer's premiums are attached to these lots. So what? Any item is worth a specific amount on any specific day, it's the bottom line that counts so does it really matter as to who actually owns said lot? If no buyer's premium is due on house lots, do you really think that item will actually sell for a lower price? My God, some people are naive, as if buyer's premiums aren't already figured into the bid amount by sophisticated bidders. An auction house is a living, breathing entity whose sole purpose is to make money and they are not in existance for the sheer love of the hobby. My God! sometimes I think that the entire industry has been infiltrated by communists and socialists. Either you trust the company or you don't, it's as simple as that, and no self appointed guardian of the public good would ever be able to ascertain whether shill bidding had actually taken place.

While I'm on the subject of REA, great company and they do give cash advances to consignors. Should this also be disclosed as they now have a fiduciary interest in the material? Bottom line, how far do you want to take this nonsense?

Mears, obviously a well respected name in the industry who have decided to diminish their income for what they perceive as being right. Admirable, but destructive. If you don't think that the auction houses will now champion a new service to authenticate, you would be very much mistaken. They have a rather easy website to navigate, and I did find it interesting that there is a page designed to list items being auctioned by employees. While full disclosure is admirable, I find this to be disconcerting given the fact that they are selling what they in fact authenticate. This is not to imply that there is any unethical behavior, but I really don't see the same comfort level being shown if PSA or SGC had a similar option for their employees, who are strictly forbidden to buy and sell product.

I could ramble on with my observations, but let's face it, until there is a professional organization similar to that found with virtually every other hobby, with strict membership requirements and a code of ethics, we are merely blowing smoke up our backsides.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:19 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Many bidders feel that if an auction house owns some of the lots, they will be more inclined to fiddle with the bids on them. Heck, I sometimes have my own lots in my auctions and those are always the ones that concern me the least. I'm much more sensitive to how my consignors do than how I do.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:25 AM
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Posted By: Paul Moss

Barry

They're either going to fiddle the bids or they're not. You either trust who you do business with or pass on doing any business at all.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:35 AM
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Posted By: Larry

Paul Moss hit this on the head, a socialistic society has no place in the collectibles market...Yes, I
would love an auction house to disclose what is theirs and what is consigned and yes, I would love not to be shilled, but Mears really needs to to modify and fine tune their "rules".

For every Joann(I respect her honorable stance), there are many that will go the other way and not utilize their (Mears')opinion, which is just that, an opinion.

MEARS is trying to clean up the hobby but at what cost does it make it ludacrous when other dealers and auction houses should be able to maintain a confidential customer list without "audit". What should happen is MEARS should have a recommended list of endorsed dealers and auction houses without audit. If any are truly "found" to be unethical, they should submit proof, then pull their name. The best way to uncover proof is by examples such as the incident discussed here about the many cards that were "renumbered" by a major grading service. That one seemed to vanish in thin air.

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Old 11-13-2007, 07:49 AM
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Posted By: Jay

I also agree with Paul. I actually prefer auction houses that don't go along with this hobby equivalent of politically correct bull****. Who is MEARS and who made them the savior of the hobby? I will bid where the best cards are--end of story.

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Old 11-13-2007, 08:09 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with the general consensus that Mears should stick with what they do best- authenticate game used bats and other related equipment. In that way they provide the hobby with a much needed service. But auditing auction houses and making determinations regarding baseball cards is not their domain.

I often send raw cards to SGC and they provide me with a great service when they examine them and render a grade. But as an added bonus they don't come to my office to audit my business, as well they shouldn't.

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Old 11-13-2007, 08:30 AM
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Posted By: Marc S.

I'm really uncomfortable with the notion that outsiders to REA may be allowed to come in and audit my personal contact information, bidding data, etc.

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Old 11-13-2007, 08:33 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Auction houses are doing nothing to slow down let alone stop the flow of altered cards selling at auctions. Anything that can get into a holder--who cares if it came from Donald the Doctor or Michael the Magician. They are in the business of auctioning whatever someone tries to pass off on them. Has a little surface crease that make it a 4--lets take it out and make it an 8-disclose this heck no why should we--this is socialism or politically correct bs--we can do what we want to--while we are at it who cares if we run up our bids to the top all price--is someone is stupid enough to give us a top all bid its his tough luck. Auctions are the best place to pass off altered graded material as cards are generally not inspected beforehand and most I presume would not accept a refund if a case could be made after the fact that the card was not legit.

Thank God there are honest people like REA and MEARS who have the best interests of the hobby at heart!

Jim

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Old 11-13-2007, 08:38 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

But Jim what can an auction house do? Presumably if a card is good enough to get by SGC or PSA, then Barry or Rob or Mastro isn't going to see the alteration either particularly in the slab. EDIT TO ADD I suppose one answer would be not to accept consignments from certain consignors, but that wouldn't work either as those people could just consign through someone else.

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Old 11-13-2007, 08:52 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

First they can stop buying from known card doctors.

Secondly, with guys like Derek Grady on staff(I realize he is no longer with Mastronet) you don't think he could detect many alterations?

Thirdly, consider hiring an independent expert(like Kevin) and inspect cards before they go to auction.

People will laugh at this last one but I would estimate that for the large high priced auctions that a significant number of graded cards that have been tampered with. Heck, we have learned recently that it can be the auction house doing the tampering. I would prefer in an ideal world none of these things but what many seem to forget is that the skills of the doctors have in many cases gotten to or surpassed the skills of graders and the average collecrtor buying something at auction has little idea whether the card he is dishing out $5,000 for has been tampered with or not other than the word of the authenticator who may or may not be right.

Jim

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:13 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- I guess we will keep having the same discussion.

Assuming I would let Kevin look at my graded cards, he lives in California and I live in New York. Do I fly him in at my cost, and pay him a fee to look at these graded cards, incurring a few thouand dollars of extra expenses?

Then he says one of my SGC cards doesn't look right, I send it to SGC and they reassure me it is fine, and now we have a tie. How do we break that tie? Coin flip? Rock-scissor-paper, best two out of three?

SGC is my authenticator of choice. Maybe I will look at my PSA and GAI cards a little more closely, and describe them in more detail. Sounds reasonable, don't you think?

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:13 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

Well Jim just to follow up, you are a free market person, what is the economic incentive for an auction house to do what you suggest? EDIT TO ADD Turning down major consignments seems economically irrational. Hiring someone like Kevin to reject cards seems economically irrational.

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:26 AM
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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

Since I know you do not want to hold the rest of the hobby to a higher standard than yourself. Will you be willing to have Kevin inspect each and every one of your 25,000 plus graded cards prior to making a private sale and or putting them up for auction?

If you won't commit to the above you really have no business telling any other auction house what cards they should or cannot auction.

Grading is an opinion. Kevin might draw a different opinion about some of your 10 year old graded cards than the guy who graded thme in th 90's. Then what?

A graded baseball card comes with two things...an opinion from the grading company regarding condition and the branding of said company. Both things determine the value of the underlying baseball card.

Since an auction house cannot possibly see the card out of the holder to agree or disagree with the opinion of the grading company...the branding and the market acceptability is what the auction house uses to market the card in their auction.

The bidder in said auction...must balance what he/she sees in the scan with what credibility he gives the grading company. If either of those two things appear not right don't bid on the card.

CB

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:34 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

What it takes is to have a buyers revolt. I have virtually stopped buying at auctions--the past 10 years I'm sure I have spent six figures at auction houses annually. As long as buyers say what the heck if its altered its altered and I will just go ahead and buy it then nothing will happen. It only turns into an economic incentive if someone like Rob or Mastro hypothetically says--ok, our auction is littered with altered stuff--we can get a significant edge on the competition by having each lot inspected by Kevin--and not only do we get an edge but we will attract more buyers who will spend more by giving them this additional layer of protection.

Barry,

In my mind your business model does not work for me. For buyers who want to run the risk they may get altered cards--fine. In order to be in the auction business down the road I think you will need size and scale and have the resources to bring in someone like Kevin who can go through each lot.

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:39 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

I am not selling any cards nor do I intend to.

If a buyer approaches me whjith an astronomical offer for certain cards and wants to make it contingent upon Kevin's saal of approval I would absolutely do that.

I don't care if Barry or Mastronet or JP Cohen have auctions to sell their cards--I just won't participate given my view on the numbers of altered cards out there.

If Kevin's opinion is not an unqualified this is legit then I am not a buyer.

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:39 AM
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Posted By: brian

"I'm really uncomfortable with the notion that outsiders to REA may be allowed to come in and audit my personal contact information, bidding data, etc."

Agreed. Maybe MEARS just found a new way to increase their mailing list by recording the names and addresses of collectors they never knew about before?

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:39 AM
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Posted By: Fred C

Wow, a conundrum of sorts.


We all want to know that the Auction Houses are on the level.


  • Do we need a third party auditing firm to perform this function?
  • What happens if the third part auditing firm becomes part of the problem (I'm not saying Mears would take a pay off, but what if it were someone besides Mears).
  • We all think the buyers premiums are ridiculous.
  • The auditing company is going to have a charge for their services.
  • Does this get passed on to the buyers (higher BPs?)
  • Do we want the higher BPs?
  • As mentioned, what prevents one or several people setting up shill accounts?
  • What prevents a friend of a consignor, not related to the Auction House, from jacking up the bids?
  • There are so many variables in the Auction House business. To think that one company can actually make a difference is a bit utopian in thought and concept.


The bottom line is that we, the members of this board, kind of police a lot of what goes on with the Auction Houses. There are so many examples of this that I wouldn't know where to start. I suppose one (and I don't want anyone to feel I'm singling anybody out or that I'm trying to open any old wounds) would be a certain Auction House in Colorado that didn't disclose some radical alterations done on a 19th century card. A lot of "issues" like this make it to the surface. We, as a collecting community, become more cognizant of the fact that there are "issues" that we need to dealt with and we can only hope that the offending parties learned their lessons.

I'd have to believe that the Auction Houses fear people with good memories. Like one of my best friends wife will tell you. I don't worry about my husband cheating, he's got a bad memory and he knows it. Bottom line, you can only hide/tell so many lies and then you lose your credibility.

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:44 AM
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Posted By: pas

Jim as best I can tell the stuff keeps going for record prices -- unless you subscribe to the theory that what you see in terms of prices realized may not always be real. If the prices are real, it would seem most people either trust the grading services or don't care, as long as the card is slabbed. And if that is the case, the economic incentive for someone to take a stand and say I won't accept consignments from x y and z, or I will insist on an independent review of slabbed cards before putting them into my auction, just isn't there right now.

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Old 11-13-2007, 09:55 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

I don't disagree and to me its unbelievable given the evidence that is out there and what people in the hobby tell me--much of which I am sure you know as you were on LTS.

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:01 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- my business model has worked fine for me for a very long time, and I have decided to keep it as is. I understand you won't be bidding but not everyone bids anyway, and there is no way to please everyone. I will still continue to do the best that I can.

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:18 AM
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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Barry,

Please do not change a thing. Your auctions are what's right with the hobby.

The fact that Jim collected 25,000 Slabs and now doesn't want to trust a slab is auctually ironic. Where was the pixel by pixel analysis 10 years ago? The alterations going on today are the same ones that went on 10 years ago. Water, scissors, spoons and straight edge razors have not seen many major break throughs in this Millenium.

The vast majority of bidders in www.sloateauction.com do not collect slabs. For the most part, your bidders are looking for true rarities and not condition rarities.

CB

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:22 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Charlie. I can only do so much. I just can't have cards that have already been authenticated to be reexamined and reevaluated by another party. It just doesn't work for me, and I would lose my consignors along the way. They certainly wouldn't put up with it.

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:30 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

Sounds like you would be an easy guy to get an alteration past if you think nothing new has happened in the last ten years. I constantly hear from senior graders and presidents of grading companies about all the latest tricks of the trade. Sounds like you are in the 1990s.

Barry--again I don't care what you or any other auction house does. I know you are honest but lack the expertise to detect sophisticated alterations--so do I--and if I were you I wouldn't buy cards from me if I auctioned cards.

I believe that major auction houses would get more bidders and higher bids if they hired Kevin to go through their auctions before the final list was agreed upon--but then they would have to give back a chunk of what they have to consigners.

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:32 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I love the fact that MEARS will be determining what is right and what is wrong in the hobby. After all, if MEARS says that they are honest and without any conflict of interest, who am I to even think otherwise?

I'm a few credits short of a Master's Degree that I'd like MEARS to authenticate anyway. Do you think they will?

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:32 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Just out of curiosity:

Kevin seems like a decent enough guy, but why is he the only solution to the problem?

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:34 AM
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Posted By: Dave F

Jim-

Although you have no intention of ever selling your cards...obviously at some point in the future whoever you'd leave them to in the family may very well want to sell them....would you take any steps to at that as far as specific instructions to your family as to having any of the cards they would then be selling inspected or "re-graded" prior to them selling?

I would have to think Jim, even if at that point 20-30 years from now your dead and gone, you'd still want the honesty and integrety in the cards making there way back into the hobby. Correct?

Or at that point would it be more about your family making off better money-wise then they would if say 20% of your cards were found to be altered?

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:40 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dave,

As I have said hundreds of times on here and you undoubtedly have read hundreds of times,
I have no intention of getting any cards regraded.

My efforts are to stop the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby and to protect myself from buying any altered cards.

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:42 AM
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Posted By: Red

Kevin sounds great. But what happens when a "Bob" comes by and becomes the 5th party grader of choice. Bob might use fancier words or come up with better card doctoring scare stories, and then we'll all be bad people, or won't be able to sleep at night, unless we pay Bob to look at all our previously 3rd & 4th party graded cards. How many new graders and authenticators need to be paid off in order for our cards to finally be deemed safe...at least for the moment?

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:52 AM
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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Were erasers around in the nineties?

CB

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Old 11-13-2007, 10:56 AM
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Posted By: Dave F

Jim, I'm not asking about getting them graded now. I'm asking about after your gone and your whoever you leave them to decides to sell them....would it not be ethical to make sure when they do go back into the hobby at that point to have them re-examined? Certainly Jim, if your concerned with the cards that are altered floating around now you wouldn't want your own that may be altered put back into the hobby in that condition? Unless your planning on taking them with you, thats a valid conern isn't it? If even 3% of your high end cards are in fact altered, that would be quite a number that your loved ones would be eventually throwing back into the mix...

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:01 AM
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Posted By: Paul Krause

Jay M. said:

"I actually prefer auction houses that don't go along with this hobby equivalent of politically correct bull****...--end of story."

Jay, we already know your preferences.
One more time?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1102513863/

--end of story.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:07 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Wow. Nothing politcally (or ethically) correct about Mastro after reading that thread.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:08 AM
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Posted By: pas

Jim I am sure I have heard many of the same things you have heard -- although not so much through the source you mentioned.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:09 AM
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Posted By: pas

That thread is certainly an oldie but goodie. To Doug's credit, the description of the item was changed during the auction.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:17 AM
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Posted By: Marc S.

are you really comfortable with an outside, for-profit company having access to all of your bidding records, personal information, etc. over the past few years? If not just REA, imagine that all the auction houses had this sort of information. And I certainly do not know what Mastro et al. do, but I know that universities have pretty sophisticated systems for measuring potential donor's asset bases, etc. Would you be comfortable with MEARS knowing what you have bid on in every auction for the last 10 years, what you won, how it increased, an assessment of the value of your collection, your net worth, etc?

That worries me. That worries me tremendously.

There are some auctions where I'm high bidder on many dozen items at the outset -- but may often end up with a significantly smaller set of winnings. I categorically DO NOT want MEARS to have access to this data.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:17 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Whew,

And I was nervous I was missing some great info these past two years.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:18 AM
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Posted By: pas

Marc I would be truly surprised if Rob Lifson's intention is to provide MEARS with that information.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:22 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, I agree. Hard to imagine Rob would allow an outside entity (with or without a Master's Degree) to have unfettered access to his bidding records and customer information. Perhaps Rob can clarify his position on this.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:23 AM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

It's a curious policy, which I can imagine reasonable auction houses not wishing to agree to (auditing, for example). I assume the disclosure of ownership relates only to when the auction house or principle person is owner, and does not involve listing the names of consignors. As far as I know, MEARS doesn't have an email list. Lastly, the 'auditor,' is a by the book and straight as an arrow guy, and a Lt. Colonel in the Army. I can testify that he's as ethical and serious about his job as they come.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:23 AM
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Posted By: Marc S.

but it is an implication of what MEARS specifically indicated on its unyielding policy:

"2. All auction houses wishing to use MEARS will agree that no bids will be placed on lots owned by any employee or family member by any employee or family member. No consigner will be permitted to bid on their own items. This will require that bidder sheets/records for all auctions be maintained for the year. To ensure compliance, the auction house agrees to subject itself to an audit by the Policy Director of MEARS at least once a year. These will be short notice audits and the auction house will be required to provide a copy of the catalog and the consigner listings, and the bidding history for the auction in question. Failure to comply with this provision will result in the inability to submit items to MEARS for a period of not less than 3 years. "

<a href="http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=302</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=302</a&gt;

Perhaps slightly less draconian than how I portrayed it (now that I read the entire policy), but it nonetheless gives me significant pause.

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Old 11-13-2007, 11:24 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Marc,

No-not carried to that extreme.

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