Wrinkles in PSA 5s

[T206Collector]

I have started amassing a number of PSA 5 T206s again, because they are more plentiful than their SGC 60 counterparts. I am quickly reminded of why I abandoned PSA on my last approach to the Monster -- the dreaded, hard to see wrinkles in PSA 5s.

Now, granted, most casual collectors cannot find these things. But I happen to see more than a fair share of them in PSA 5 holders. I have never -- really never -- seen an SGC 60 T206 with a crease in it. SGC does say that its 60s may have "one VERY slight surface or 'spider' crease may exist on one side of the card," but I have never seen one that passed muster with them in a 60.

Seems like every few PSA 5 T206s I come across have a hairline fracture or spider wrinkle or something akin. Does anybody else have this issue? Is PSA more permissive on this stuff -- or are they just missing it?

[ullmandds]

That's a great question...and one I wish I could answer?!?!

Are they more permissive of defects than SGC...yes I think they are!

Do they miss a lot more than SGC does...yes...I think they do!!!!

[ebrehm]

I have definitely seen PSA 5 T206's with surface wrinkles. The PSA grading standard for EX 5 doesn't mention it, but apparently they do allow it in some cases. I have learned that if I see a card that looks at arm's length like a 7, but is graded a 5, there is probably a small wrinkle somewhere that brought the grade down. The wrinkle can be very difficult to see in a scan, so I usually shy away from cards like that. I haven't handled many SGC 60's so can't comment on that.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by ebrehm

I have learned that if I see a card that looks at arm's length like a 7, but is graded a 5, there is probably a small wrinkle somewhere that brought the grade down.

When I got this card in the mail, I was amazed by its sharpness and clarity. So, I set about looking for a flaw to bring it down to a "5". Back, bottom, hairline crease. Still a brilliant card. But disappointing nonetheless.

[CMIZ5290]

I must say that it amazes me how much more critical alot of people seem to be of psa versus sgc on this forum. To me, sgc overgrades much more than psa on t206s, way more. I have seen many, many sgc graded t206s on this site that blow me away on the grades they received. The fact of the matter is this, psa graded t206s will always bring a significant premium over comparable sgc graded cards. By the way, i have alot of sgc graded t206s as well as Psa. Ask the major auction house owners which ones they would rather sell....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I must say that it amazes me how much more critical alot of people seem to be of psa versus sgc on this forum. To me, sgc overgrades much more than psa on t206s, way more. I have seen many, many sgc graded t206s on this site that blow me away on the grades they received. The fact of the matter is this, psa graded t206s will always bring a significant premium over comparable sgc graded cards. By the way, i have a tremendous amount of sgc graded t206s for the record. Ask the major auction house owners which ones they would rather sell....

My guess is that you're more concerned about corners than wrinkles. SGC is definitely more tolerant of slightly rounded corners in an EX holder, but that's fine for me because I always understood EX to allow mild corner damage -- but no bloody wrinkles!

Do you have any T206 SGC 60s or higher with a wrinkle?

[steve B]

Not only wrinkles, but any other flaw. That's been my experience.

A small paper inclusion that allowed a pinhead of ink to wear off? 40

A bend, not even a wrinkle. Just barely visible when moved under light at an angle as a change in glossiness from one angle to another. But perfect centering and like new corners? 50

tiny flake off one corner? 50

But then I see some with nearly VG corners in 60 holders.

Steve B

[packs]

I feel like where PSA might be more generous with a wrinkle issue SGC is far more generous when it comes to assigning grades to cards that are off center. I've seen a lot of SGC 84 cards that are off center that I don't think would receive a 7 from PSA.

[ScottFandango]

The highest grade a card can get with a wrinkle is a 5....

When a very nice card gets a 5' it's probably got a wrinkle

I would be more upset if you saw a Psa 8 with a wrinkle....

[CMIZ5290]

Scott- i completely agree. I have got a couple of psa 5's that have razor sharp corners and perfect centering. The cards look like an 8, and the small paper wrinkles are on the back of the card, and are less than a quarter of an inch long. Plus, you have to look at a certain angle to even see them. To me, a 3 grade knock on this type of card is more than sufficient.....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Scott- i completely agree. I have got a couple of psa 5's that have razor sharp corners and perfect centering. The cards look like an 8, and the small paper wrinkles are on the back of the card, and are less than a quarter of an inch long. Plus, you have to look at a certain angle to even see them. To me, a 3 grade knock on this type of card is more than sufficient.....

Must just be a preference. When I was growing up pre-grading age, an EX card could have well-bruised corners, but no wrinkles. If it had a wrinkle, I immediately dropped it into the VG category. For me, minty fresh cards with spider wrinkles are perfect PSA 4s and SGC 50s.

Does anybody have an SGC 60 T206 card with a wrinkle? I have had zero success crossing PSA 5s with wrinkles into SGC 60 holders. Has anybody been successful?

I have, however, been able to cross PSA 4s with corner damage into SGC 60s. But that was before the advent of half-point grading at PSA.

[ebrehm]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Must just be a preference. When I was growing up pre-grading age, an EX card could have well-bruised corners, but no wrinkles. If it had a wrinkle, I immediately dropped it into the VG category. For me, minty fresh cards with spider wrinkles are perfect PSA 4s and SGC 50s.

Does anybody have an SGC 60 T206 card with a wrinkle? I have had zero success crossing PSA 5s with wrinkles into SGC 60 holders. Has anybody been successful?

I have, however, been able to cross PSA 4s with corner damage into SGC 60s. But that was before the advent of half-point grading at PSA.

I agree, I am from the pre-grading age too, and for me Excellent should mean no wrinkles. Of course, at one point is a very slightly surface imperfection actually considered a wrinkle? Could be a matter of judgement.

[Edwolf1963]

I don't have any SGC60s that I'm aware of with crease/wrinkles. I always thought the stated maximum you could get from either PSA or SGC on cards with a wrinkle was a 4? Personally, I have found more issues with a few PSA5s having paper chips/loss than wrinkles. SGC60s - I have seen more centering issues, especially the backs.

Obviously both can make questionable grades/mistakes, I've just seen more inconsistency on the cards I've seen and/or submitted to PSA.

[chaddurbin]

i did have a sgc60 t206 young w/glove with 2 spidery corner wrinkles. the card shifted significantly inside the sgc case during shipping so wasn't sure if wrinkle was there before.

say all you want about the floating psa case, but the black sgc insert slab is also a problem and sometimes the sharp edges dig into the card.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

the black sgc insert slab is also a problem and sometimes the sharp edges dig into the card.

True -- I had an SGC 60 Walter Johnson portrait once that had two little dings on the bottom edge from the SGC insert. I raised it with the good folks at SGC and they were very accommodating and apologetic -- but they haven't changed their black-insert formula.

[CMIZ5290]

Chad, excellent point about sgc holders. I have an sgc 92 that this happened to. It made me sick to my stomach when i first noticed it, but that's what had to have happened because sgc woulld have noticed that small indention if it was already there before grading...by the way, is there any recourse with SGC on this type of issue?

[glynparson]

wrinkles are allowed on psa 5 they are even allowed on psa 6 if the rest of card is mint. there are things that they both are more lenient about

[E93]

Originally Posted by glynparson

wrinkles are allowed on psa 5 they are even allowed on psa 6 if the rest of card is mint. there are things that they both are more lenient about

True, at least it was years ago when this happened to me. I had a CJ that I thought would get a 9 or 8 at a minimum. It came back in a PSA 6 holder (at a show) so I asked for an explanation. They said there was a very minor wrinkle in one area and pointed to it. I could not see it under a loupe. It looked to me like the natural unevenness of the paper CJs were printed on. I resubmitted it a year later and received the same grade and same explanation. Tried a third time the following year with the same result. For those that complain about inconsistency, here is some good evidence to the contrary on the detection of a VERY insignificant flaw.
JimB

[betafolio2]

Originally Posted by ebrehm

I have learned that if I see a card that looks at arm's length like a 7, but is graded a 5, there is probably a small wrinkle somewhere that brought the grade down.

ABSOLUTELY! I've seen this on more than one occasion myself in PSA-slabbed cards (though only on post-war cards, because I don't collect anything older; however, the age of the card shouldn't make any difference, because the grades are supposed to be universal across all eras).