More T205 stuff....the "ELUSIVE 20"....and more

[tedzan]

Long-time T205 collectors are quite aware of these ELUSIVE 20 cards, so this info is primarily intended for new collectors of this set. Ten of these T205's have in common
the following. They were printed with just these 6 tobacco backs and are somewhat tougher to find than most other T205's (which were printed with as many as 12 backs).



.................... Factory #42, N.C. ........................................... Factory #30, N.Y. ........................................... Factory #60, N.Y.



............................ Factory # 6, OH



SOMEWHAT TOUGH TEN

.......... Cobb ................................... Barger .................................................. Bender .............................................. Bresnahan ............................................. Camnitz
.

.......... Kroh ....................... Oldring ........................Titus ....................... Smith ...................... Wilson




TOUGH TEN

The following 10 subjects are at a tougher level of difficulty. They were printed with just 5 of the above tobacco backs. As of yet, none of these 10 have been confirmed
with the AMERICAN BEAUTY back.

NOTE The Wiltse (right ear) is included only because this card happens to be in this series of scans. This Wiltse card is a real tough one, as it is one of the Short-Printed
T205 cards.


.. Barger (partial B) .................................... Ford (white cap) ........................................ Rowan ............................................... Walsh



....... Scanlon ................................................ Sweeney ............................................ Vaughn ......................................... Wiltse (right ear)



..Collins (mouth open) ............ Fisher ....................... Kirb White





Of course there are approx. 20 tougher T205 subjects than the above 20, that were Short-Printed (besides the stats and printing irregularities). Invariably, the scarcity of
a particular subject is essentially related to the number of Tobacco backs it was printed with (i.e., less backs = less availability). I hope that these tougher T205 cards will
be discussed in following posts on this thread.

Would appreciate any comments or pictures regarding T205 front/back combos......or, anything T205.


TED Z

[Ronnie73]

Interesting info Ted. So are you saying the Wiltse (right ear) has only 5 known backs so far and the American Beauty back just hasen't been confirmed?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Interesting info Ted. So are you saying the Wiltse (right ear) has only 5 known backs so far and the American Beauty back just hasen't been confirmed?

Ronnie73

That is correct, only 5 of the backs pictured here have been confirmed on this Wiltse card. It is actually a tougher card than the other T205's in that group on display.

TED Z

[Wite3]

Ted,

Not sure this is accurate. Titus, Smith, and Wilson are some of the easiest cards in the set. Joss, Shean and Graham Cubs, Breshnahan mouth open, Chase left ear, Vaughn, Karger, Donahue, Raymond, Suggs, turner, and Wallace no cap should be included in the first group (if not above them).

The problem with just looking at subject back advertising is that there were several printings of different advertising backs. This is why Drum and Hindu are rare, just not as many print runs. Piedmont 42, AB were run in less numbers and Polar bear was run in more. BUT, when you just look at backs, Titus seems to fall in this group...here is the problem, I am convinced that some of this group, like Fisher, Rowan, Sweeney, Vaugn, were replaced for the minor leaguers. This is one reason that I believe these cards were shortprinted and cards like Titus that were not replaced in the PB and Hassan backs are easier to find. I still feel that Polar Bear backs are among the easiest T205 backs...easier or equal to Piedmont 25 backs.

12 minor league players could have been included in place of...

Dahlen
Donahue
Fletcher
Grant
Raymond
Rowan
Scanlon
Suggs
Sweeney
Turner
Vaughn
Wagner

This seems likely but I have not completely confirmed some of the backs for a few of the single prints (like missing a Polar Bear confirmation for Raymond).

And just for fun...I think Karger (tough card) replaced Joss (since the back matrix lines up).

Joshua

[Wite3]

Oh yeah...I have the Wiltse right ear confirmed with six backs, Hassan 30 and 649, HLC, Piedmont 25 and 42, and Polar Bear.

Joshua

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Oh yeah...I have the Wiltse right ear confirmed with six backs, Hassan 30 and 649, HLC, Piedmont 25 and 42, and Polar Bear.

Joshua

Thanks for this confirmation, I had a feeling that Wiltse (right ear) had a 6th back....but it isn't an AB. Therefore, this Wiltse is not part of the above group.


(1) I agree with you that the "NOT AS TOUGH TEN" (Bresnahan, Smith and Titus Wilson, etc.) are not that tough relative to the others. However, the point
I am trying to simply make is that these 10 were printed with the same set of tobacco advertisements as the tougher 10. And, this implies to me that they
were all on the same sheet of T205's. Now, correct me if I am wrong here. I do not think there are any other T205 subjects that were printed with this par-
ticular combination of 6 tobacco backs as this group of 20 ?

Speaking about T205 sheets, these 2 scans give us some idea of how these cards were printed. The back scan on the left of my Collins (mouth open) tells
us that this subject was double-printed on the sheet.

My Titus card tells us that Titus and Smith were adjacent cards on the sheet.

.................................................. ............ Collins (mouth open) ............................................... Titus / Smith




(2) Your theory regarding the 12 Minor Leaguers (ML) is very interesting. But, how does one account for the fact that Rowan, Scanlon, Sweeney & Vaughn
were not printed with the Hassan (Factory #649) backs, as were the 12 ML ?

Joshua.....I'm not trying to be picky here, but my T206 front/back "fixation" forces me ask this question.


TED Z

[Ronnie73]

So with a Wiltse (right ear) Hassan 649 confirmed, shouldn't there be another group of 10 or 20 that have the same 6 different backs you listed except the Hassan 649 replacing the American Beauty back?

Ted you are saying that the group of 11 have confirmed AB backs right?

[Wite3]

Ted,
Just not enough known about sheets and the matrix to confirm double prints, etc. It could be a scrap that you have...who knows. I will tell you that the McGraw was printed above the Crandall...and a few other combos but we are not even sure how many cards to a sheet.

In answer to your second question... my list is incomplete as i have not actually seen some of these with green american beauty backs yet (I think Andrew is about to say the same thing). Again, there are several back groupings in t205 and many overlap. With the company pulling, fixing, and substituting fronts and backs to make changes I am not sure we will ever have a complete picture.

Joshua

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Wite3

With the company pulling, fixing, and substituting fronts and backs to make changes I am not sure we will ever have a complete picture.

I think we might be able to get closer then we are right now if there was a public census project done for T205s as was done with T206s. As I understand it the 'super set' information that's been compiled over the years is shared amongst a select few which makes it difficult for the masses to help further the cause. I do understand those folks feeling like they did the work so why should others benefit for free.

[Matt E.]

Not sure if we are talking fronts or back here. Enclosed are loose guidelines I use when collecting T205's. If I can combine the card with the very accurate "list of difficulty" provided by Joshua then all the better.

Ted you seem to be off on this one my friend.



Thanks,

Matt

http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball/shortprints
Short Prints


http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseba...aleortradepage
Variations

http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball/minorleaguers
Minor Leaguers


http://imageevent.com/babybingbaseball/thetoughies
Tough to Find

[tedzan]

Hey guys

The purpose of this thread was to start a discussion on the front/back combos of the T205's and hopefully we can get a brainstorming forum going
on this subject like we have with the T206's.

I started this with a group of 20 subjects (I referred to as the Elusive 20) that I thought were established with respect to their front/back combos.
But, apparently there is a difference of opinion here. And, that's fine, because it's the only way that you discover the real facts.

I am well versed on the "toughies" vs the "easy's" in the T205 set. In the mid-1990's I completed a 209-card T205 set (included Hoblitzell-No Stats).
I have since sold this set to a Net54 member.....and, now I simply dabble with T205's.


Looking forward to seeing you guys in Baltimore this Summer.

Best regards,


TED Z

[Ronnie73]

It might be time for a "T205 only" website. I started one at the beginning of the year but got busy with a few other projects. What does everyone think about this idea? It would be a clean website for all to contribute to and everyone would be added to a credits page. All I basically have to do is turn on the server running that website to start it. I've already designed the basic template of the site, now I would just need clear scans of cards to add to the pages. Hopefully i'm not stepping on any toes here but the main purpose for the site would just be to share knowledge.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Ted you are saying that the group of 11 have confirmed AB backs right?

First, the Wiltse here has been eliminated as part of this group; therefore, not found with an AB back......thanks Joshua.

I have not seen the other 10 subjects with AB backs. However, when I was putting together my T205 set in the 1990's and searching for different backs,
several veteran T205 collectors told me that these 10 subjects can be found with AB backs. Let's hope some one chimes in here and solves this mystery.









TED Z

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Ted,
Just not enough known about sheets and the matrix to confirm double prints, etc. It could be a scrap that you have...who knows. I will tell you that the McGraw was printed above the Crandall...and a few other combos but we are not even sure how many cards to a sheet.
Joshua

I would say that my Collins is a regular Factory-Cut T205 which was on a sheet whose backs went thru some sloppy printing......it is not a "scrap".




TED Z

I can confirm Barger partial B, White, Rowan, Fisher, and scanlan with Pied 42 so these subjects are possible with AB backs. I do not have any of these in an AB back and believe I won't either because they don't exist. We need confirmed list but just like the Graham thread no one wants to share any info(yes people have contributed but no where near the help I thought). We have at least 10-15 T205 collectors that I know of and many others that do collect them but only 5-6 have anything to contribute where as in t206's you have 100's of guys and so many stupid "variations/errors" it makes my head spin. We as T205 collectors cant get the Doc white PB "no quotes" acknowledged, now the graham blue sig Pied 25, and also the Miller B, D, and B/D, variations. Why would we put all of our hard work out there when realistically no one really cares or wants to contribute to the cause. This is just how I feel.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I can confirm Barger partial B, White, Rowan, Fisher, and scanlan with Pied 42 so these subjects are possible with AB backs. I do not have any of these in an AB back and believe I won't either because they don't exist. We need confirmed list but just like the Graham thread no one wants to share any info(yes people have contributed but no where near the help I thought). We have at least 10-15 T205 collectors that I know of and many others that do collect them but only 5-6 have anything to contribute where as in t206's you have 100's of guys and so many stupid "variations/errors" it makes my head spin. We as T205 collectors cant get the Doc white PB "no quotes" acknowledged, now the graham blue sig Pied 25, and also the Miller B, D, and B/D, variations. Why would we put all of our hard work out there when realistically no one really cares or wants to contribute to the cause. This is just how I feel.

ANDREW

You and Joshua are our T205 guys and I certainly defer to your's and Joshua's expertise. I've been convinced that the subjects that I've referred as the "TOUGH TEN"
in my 1st post here are not found with AMERICAN BEAUTY (AB) backs. My mistake, I mis-read my data that I got back in the 1990's when I was collecting T205's.

Furthermore, I think you'll agree, that the other 10 subjects (that I've referred to as the "SOMEWHAT TOUGH TEN") are indeed found with AB backs. Therefore, I have
re-defined my 1st post here to reflect these differences.

You are absolutely right, there are not enough meaningful T205 threads on Net54. As you know, I am always fascinated with the front/back combos of these T-cards.
I would like to see more of that data with respect to the T205's.


TED Z

Where does Grant and Wagner fit into this? Are they part of the minor league swap possibly?

[tedzan]

Based on the bios on the backs of these Minor Leaguer's (ML)....Adkins, Cady, Jimmy Collins, Dunn, Frick, Hanford, McAllister and Nee....it's fair to conclude
that American Lithographic (ALC) printed all twelve ML cards in one of their later 1911 press runs.

Joshua (post #4 here) has suggested that the 12 - ML cards could have replaced a group of 12 - Major Leaguer's (printed on an earlier sheet). This is very
plausible....which would have then rendered these twelve Major Leaguer's as Short-Prints (SP).

But, which twelve SP Major Leaguer's were replaced is a good question.

Furthermore, regarding this late 1911 press run, if I recall their bios correctly, I'd include Donohue, Rowan, and Joss (for starters) on this sheet with the ML
cards. Given some more thought to this, we should be able to come up with some more SP cards in this late press run.


ALC started their Gold-Bordered Tobacco card design in the Spring of 1911 with their T80 (Military Series), T42 (Birds)....and subsequently, the T205 cards.
Perhaps, the designs of the twelve ML cards were created by the same artist(s) that drew up the T80's.


T80






TED Z

I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+ cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards.

Any thoughts on this?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I have had a theory that the T80 and T42 series were part of the "T205's" or Gold Boarder's thus adding to the 400 designs. That would add 150 more designs to the 220+ cards in the t205 set. That would take the total to 370 without considering any variations possible for these sets that are unknown. Back designs are similar also, especially the Sweet Caporal backs. Knowing that Mecca produced the T202 cards using the T205 designs as end panels in 1912 makes it possibly plausible since the T80 and 42's are found with Mecca backs also and were produced just after. Kinda like the 1880's A&G Series cards.

Any thoughts on this?

Andrew

Interesting theory and you'll be happy to hear of the T43 Gold-Bordered Bird set of 30 cards (pardon me for forgetting this one)....so your total is exactly 400 subjects.


But, the T80 cards were printed in Feb. 1911, and have T206-like Tobacco advertising backs....LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT (and very rarely OLD MILL & CAIRO MONOPOL).







TED Z

Yes but you have to remember the break up of the ATC. This alone could have caused this small anomaly. Mecca didn't arrive till 1912. Lenox,Tolstoi, and Uzit were very short run cards anyways. If they had a fulfillment order it would make sense to dump them on a small set run and use the same plates instead of a redesign. I do believe that in the next few moths to a yr using T80, T42, T43, and the T205 set we will be able to compile a real accurate set. The cards like Moran and Matty don't count but just like that Turner and I have found 2 new actual variations and not error cards. That offsets those. I am glad we are discussing this as I have thought this for a long time and never wanted to say anything because of some people.

[Wite3]

Interesting theories about the 400 subjects. The only problem I see with this is the print design. As Ted mentioned the backs of the t-80s match better with t206. This is because they used a printing plate design for the backs. That is how you get the more stylized tolstoi, lenox, sweet cap, etc. in the t206/t80s. In t205s, they used a moveable type backs. This allowed them to fix errors (and create for that matter) errors like the Hobby, Moran, Gray, etc.

I am not familiar enough with the fist series to comment but if I recall, they also used the moveable type.

Again, just my theories.

Joshua

[tedzan]

1911 was a very busy year at American Lithographic......they produced a heck of a lot of pretty cardboard with their BB and non-Sports sets.



.................................................. ...... T201 MECCA BB .................................................. .................... T205







T42 & T43 Birds





T80 Military Series




T77 Lighthouse cards






TED Z

[steve B]

I've had a look at the few T205s I own, and haven't seen any indication that movable type was used. None of the traits that would indicate movable type are there at all.

If I recall it correctly, The T80's etc were packed in the same packs as T206 where the pack had one baseball and one military card. Consistent back branding would have mattered, but once they'd moved on to including the bio and stats there wasn't enough room.

Although I must admit seeing the bio inside the fancy frames would have been great.

Steve B

Originally Posted by Wite3

Interesting theories about the 400 subjects. The only problem I see with this is the print design. As Ted mentioned the backs of the t-80s match better with t206. This is because they used a printing plate design for the backs. That is how you get the more stylized tolstoi, lenox, sweet cap, etc. in the t206/t80s. In t205s, they used a moveable type backs. This allowed them to fix errors (and create for that matter) errors like the Hobby, Moran, Gray, etc.

I am not familiar enough with the fist series to comment but if I recall, they also used the moveable type.

Again, just my theories.

Joshua

Originally Posted by steve B

I've had a look at the few T205s I own, and haven't seen any indication that movable type was used. None of the traits that would indicate movable type are there at all.

If I recall it correctly, The T80's etc were packed in the same packs as T206 where the pack had one baseball and one military card. Consistent back branding would have mattered, but once they'd moved on to including the bio and stats there wasn't enough room.

Although I must admit seeing the bio inside the fancy frames would have been great.

Steve B

Steve check out my thread about Latham HLC backs. There are 2 of them with a faint upside down W or what I like to call the M.A. Latham error. That's proof enough for me that there was movable type set. As long as everything was set and tight there would not be any reason to remove or lose one. We know Piedmont and Polar Bear were the bigggest runs so the quotes from Doc white, which seem to be a SP for PB backs, may have been used for another card. Just some thoughts.

[tedzan]

One of my favorite T205's. Donahue was an excellent 1st Baseman. One of his biggest claims to fame was when he hit a single
to break up Ed Reulbach's bid for a No-Hitter in the 2nd game of the 1906 World Series between the two Chicago teams.

Although, I've wondered why he was pictured in the T205 set, since his Major League career ended on October 2, 1909. Does
this suggest to us how far in advance American Litho. was planning this set. Or, is Donahue simply a carry-over from the T206
set ?
Unfortunately, 2 years after this card of him was issued, Donahue suffered a very untimely death at the young age of 34.



....



TED Z

[Wite3]

Movable type had to be used. They would not have redone entire plates to fix the Hoblitzell spelling errors, Gray with stats, etc. BUT the most convincing evidence is that the last line of the Mattern back appears as the stray type in the Moran variation. How does this happen you ask? Very easy...they just did not remove the last line of type from the blocks in the printing. I also think it lends credence that the set was printed in several different printings to fix the errors.
Joshua

[tedzan]

Hope to see some of you at the Oaks Philly Show this weekend.

And, let's see or talk about some more T205's.


T-Rex TED

[steve B]

Two replies together, plus some general comment. Followed by a nearly total rewrite and partial change of opinion.

Andrew - I wouldn't completely rule out moveable type. I had another look at the thread about Latham. It's unusual to have a bit of type low enough that it prints that light. And the varying size of the periods are more like an incompletely erased litho plate.

Joshua - I'll have to disagree about ALC not redoing an entire plate to repair an error. They repaired or replaced plates somewhat often during the preceeding 3 years while doing the T206s, and I can't see them making a major change in proceedure that would reduce quality.

Overall, there are some interesting things here.

Typography usually has a different quality that lithography. letters printed from moveable type typicaly show either indentations in the paper, or a ridge of ink at the edge where some squeezed out during the printing. Sometimes both. The T205s I have show the even ink distribution and lack of indents typical of offset lithography.
I'd love to see one showing the traits of typography.

BUT===The Latham thread is interesting. While T206s are thought to have been printed fronts first and there's a lot to support that, having an offset transfer under the front printing means backs first, at least partly.(Printing a color or two on the front then doignthe back and going back later to finish the front is possible) And If I'm not mistaken T205s are much tougher with blank backs.

I had written in an earlier draft "Typically litho shops won't have moveable type in the shop, nor a press to print with it. The proceses are so different it's not practical."
In attempting to find out if it might have been possible to print from type on a litho press of the era I came across the text of a book that clarified quite a bit!

http://www.archive.org/stream/offset...wuoft_djvu.txt

The book itself is a 1922 version of one originally released in 1917 to help printers in the change from working from stones to working with plates.
And it's very detailied technically.

The two sections I found immediately interesting were the section describing the making of transfers to lay out the plates, one of the bits of 1910's era printing that I knew of, but not in detail.

The other I think applies here, and describes making transfers from type!

So I'll readjust my thinking. I'm becoming convinced that the T205 backs were partly set in type, transfers made and stones or plates made from the transfers. Complex? Yes. A known practice at the time? Apparently so, but only in more skilled shops. And ALC would have had at least a few very skilled workers.

Steve B

[T205Guy]

I might be a little lost when it comes to printing processes, however, has anyone else noticed the Sweet Caporal backs on the "James Scott" card. It seems that the whole block of type for the players description is "wracked" top to bottom, but not side to side. Might this be an indication of movable type?? There are plenty to look at on Ebay...

Ed

[steve B]

Well that's interesting!

Yeah, that really seems as if they laid out the borders and brand info first, then transfered the type onto the stone separately. The sovereign that's up now is normal, but both red and black backs of SC have the text tilted.

Steve B

Also the names of players like Matty, Blackburne, and many others have names printed in a different style/size of text.