PWCC is alive and well

[Peter_Spaeth]

The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The FBI can't shut down a business just because it is under investigation.

Thoughts on my second and third points

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Thoughts on my second and third points

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

[BeanTown]

As much as I don't like PWCC, it seemed to be normal bidding. That postcard is super rare and is too rare for its own good. It went too cheap IMHO and the consignor would have dine much better with a reputable AH. Congrats too whoever won it. The Max Stein was pretty goid value as well. It wouldn't surprise me one bit, to see lower prices realized on premium cards. PWCC days of manipulation or turning a blind eye to stuff are over (I hope). Two years or less, they be gone.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect.

That's my assumption as well.

I am very, very, very far from convinced that there are undetectable serious alterations. I suspect that many to most of these undetected alterations are obvious if examined correctly.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

What I've said many times over the years. If there's nothing wrong with something, then why the reluctance to disclose it? And, of course, the answer is because the person knows there's something wrong with it-- or, more specifically, it lowers the market value. If it raised the value they would say it underlined and in bold, and often in the auction title.

For example: --->> PROFESSIONALL CLEANED!!!!! <<-----

[silvor]

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by silvor

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

[silvor]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

Good point Bobby. I guess at this point, collectors don't seem to care, so at least for the time being, they'll be selling at what seems to be strong prices.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

No you can't but WOW did he make a boat load of cash and only got a slap on the wrist for it.

I am sure PWCC does have some legit customers. Too bad they are fueling the scam by using them. Just like the honest PSA customers.

Just like Nancy Reagan taught us that buying a dime bag leads to drug lords killing innocent people. We need to learn that using PWCC and PSA will lead us to having a completely worthless collection of altered cards. We need to stamp out PWCC and PSA before they completely ruin the hobby.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Really?? Just like Mastro was OK when they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar? Remind me - Can I bid on a Mastro auction today?

but yet you keep submitting and they keep popping, Whatever the F that means. Do you understand that PSA is in on this and it's a billion dollar fraud?

Stop buying the effing cards and submitting cards to these criminals.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by silvor

1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson, $20,500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-Leaf-J...oAAOSwRnNdQ1Os

Last sale May 2018 went for $12,000.

I think PWCC will be ok.

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

You are not the only one to have observed potential issues with that right edge.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by steve B

Go take a hard look at the upper right corner area especially on the right. Then compare that to the rest of the edges.

Then get back to me on how great PWCC is.

PWCC sucks...but this is more a reflection on how badly PSA sucks!!!!

[Rhotchkiss]

This is a super rare PC. I think Stevenovella had one up on eBay a few months ago, as an auction with $40k minimum bid, but I don’t think it sold. Anyway, I agree with a Jay that the card went relatively cheap - in fact, I think the hammer price on the card may indicate the opposite of your hypothesis

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's easy of course to imagine an unsatisfying resolution of the investigation, from your and my perspective, but I really don't know.

There definitely seems to be an effort to move the goalposts on cleaning. It strikes me as self-serving and disingenuous. The hobby has never supported bleach or the like. Sure, one can and one always could give hypotheticals that seem relatively innocuous. But as a famous judge once said just because there's a slippery slope you don't have to ski it to the bottom. I'm not yet convinced that most cases of chemical cleaning are all that difficult to detect. You can just look at some of these cards and tell they've been cleaned. But if I am wrong about that, and TPGs truly can't detect it, there may be no choice but to assume that risk when you buy cards from certain issues.

Of course, it begs the question, if it's legitimate and acceptable, why not disclose it? I never get an answer to that one.

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Bleach isnt difficult to detect. Its compounds Florence when a black-light is turned on. I cant imagine a 3rd Party Grader like PSA wouldn't check for it. If they dont, then they shouldn't be in business, and if they are, and this stuff is passing and ending up in say, auction houses, then that raises a whole other set of questions about integrity.

Brent isn't using something as obvious as bleach, it's some kind of peroxide I believe.

[Yankees1964]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Thoughts on my second and third points

In the past couple of years I was involved with the FBI on with a fraud/theft investigation of a non profit that I am on the board of directors for. It was incredible to me at the time how slow the investigation was going. About six months into it, I had a discussion with the Agent in Charge and asked her why the heck it was taking so long when we clearly had identified what happened and knew who the offender was. She told me that they are slow and methodical on purpose. She told me that every "i" is dotted and every "t" is crossed before they move with any indictments. She chuckled and told me that this is why you rarely see the FBI lose a case. There were so many times that I thought nothing was going on and yet below the surface there were a dozen or more people working on it. If they truly are investigating PWCC and or PSA or anyone else, they won't know it till the FBI wants them to.