Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[boysblue]

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

[Seven]

Peak it would be Koufax. I think it's very difficult to argue against that. Career? Lefty Grove or Steve Carlton. I think what weighs in Carlton's favor is that he played against integrated competition as opposed to Grove who didn't. But the argument could favor Grove in the sense that because there were less teams, Grove played against a more concentrated talent pool.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Seven

Peak it would be Koufax. I think it's very difficult to argue against that..

Why? I consider Grove's peak to have lasted six seasons, Koufax' four. Even if you take a random string of four for Grove, Lefty's ERA+ and WAR blow Sandy's away. Koufax did had more strikeouts, I wonder what Lefty would have done in 1966. Only 3 players hit over .320 in 1966, while in 1931 Grove was pitching against a player coming off of seasons where he hit .381 and .393, and he isn't sniffing the HOF (Babe Herman.)

It's tough to compare across eras, but I think if you move Grove and Walter into the 1960's, NOBODY would touch them.

If WAR is an important stat to you, check this out: out of an 8-season stretch, Grove was the top WAR pitcher for 6 of them. One season he came in second to Carl Hubbell, and in 1934 while Dizzy Dean was tops, Grove's arm went dead. The next season he went from a fastballer to a curveballer and was tops in WAR again. In Koufax' four peak years, he was tops in WAR twice.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Why? I consider Grove's peak to have lasted six seasons, Koufax' four. Even if you take a random string of four for Grove, Lefty's ERA+ and WAR blow Sandy's away. Koufax did had more strikeouts, I wonder what Lefty would have done in 1966. Only 3 players hit over .320 in 1966, while in 1931 Grove was pitching against a player coming off of seasons where he hit .381 and .393, and he isn't sniffing the HOF (Babe Herman.)

It's tough to compare across eras, but I think if you move Grove and Walter into the 1960's, NOBODY would touch them.

If WAR is an important stat to you, check this out: out of an 8-season stretch, Grove was the top WAR pitcher for 6 of them. One season he came in second to Carl Hubbell, and in 1934 while Dizzy Dean was tops, Grove's arm went dead. The next season he went from a fastballer to a curveballer and was tops in WAR again. In Koufax' four peak years, he was tops in WAR twice.

WAR is garbage. In 1965 Juan Marichal led the NL in bWAR. The only stats he led Koufax in were ERA+ and shutouts. That really has to be a seriously flawed metric when the guy who leads in ERA, FIP, WHIP, H/9, K/9, K/BB,WPA, IP, CG, W-L% and even wins with a pathetic offensive and sets the MLB record for strikeouts in a season and pitches a perfect game is supposed to be the third best pitcher. Marichal didn’t get a single CY Young vote, not even from the SF writers who saw him pitch every game. When your only argument is using made up stats, you have already lost.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by rats60

WAR is garbage. In 1965 Juan Marichal led the NL in bWAR. The only stats he led Koufax in were ERA+ and shutouts. That really has to be a seriously flawed metric when the guy who leads in ERA, FIP, WHIP, H/9, K/9, K/BB,WPA, IP, CG, W-L% and even wins with a pathetic offensive and sets the MLB record for strikeouts in a season and pitches a perfect game is supposed to be the third best pitcher. Marichal didn’t get a single CY Young vote, not even from the SF writers who saw him pitch every game. When your only argument is using made up stats, you have already lost.

It's all about where you pitched. Marichal put up a nearly identical ERA (2.13 vs 2.04) in a ballpark that was WILDLY more favorable toward hitters (ballpark rating of 109 for pitchers vs 91 for Dodger Stadium). And he did without giving up twice as many runs on the road as he did at home like Koufax (Koufax ERAs: 1.38/2.72, Marichal's: 2.53/1.75 - yes, he was better on the road).

I don't like WAR but sometimes the weirdness does have an explanation.

[shagrotn77]

My vote is for Randy Johnson. He was an absolute beast, but often times seemed to be (many times, unfairly so) overshadowed by Greg Maddux.

[jgannon]

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jgannon

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

If no other lefty had had a great peak, then I would accept this. Kershaw is at least equal to Koufax though, and Grove's 9 ERA crowns is one hell of a peak neither of the Dodgers have hit, plus he hurled 4,000 innings. When there are other options who are not good pitchers for a long time, like Pettite, but guys like Grove, Plank, Carlton, Spahn, Randy Johnson, I have a really hard time seeing how Koufax tops them by any reasonable standard.

[Touch'EmAll]

I have heard the Dodgers would make sure of a nice high pitchers mound. After Koufax retired, MLB overall lowered their mound to a universal lower height.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by G1911

If no other lefty had had a great peak, then I would accept this. Kershaw is at least equal to Koufax though, and Grove's 9 ERA crowns is one hell of a peak neither of the Dodgers have hit, plus he hurled 4,000 innings. When there are other options who are not good pitchers for a long time, like Pettite, but guys like Grove, Plank, Carlton, Spahn, Randy Johnson, I have a really hard time seeing how Koufax tops them by any reasonable standard.

I'm not arguing that Koufax was "the best". I'm just saying he belongs in the debate. I've seen film of Koufax, but of course, tragically the games back then weren't preserved. But I never of course, saw Lefty Grove, so I really can't comment on somebody like him. The other pitchers you're talking about were all great pitchers. Everyone can make their case for them. But Koufax is in the conversation or there is no conversation, in my opinion.

[earlywynnfan]

Grove! Look at his best 5-year run against Koufax's, then remind yourself Grove's peak was during the biggest hitter's era ever, Koufax during 2nd deadball era.

IMHO, what Grove did in 1931 might be the greatest pitching season ever.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Grove! Look at his best 5-year run against Koufax's, then remind yourself Grove's peak was during the biggest hitter's era ever, Koufax during 2nd deadball era.

IMHO, what Grove did in 1941 might be the greatest pitching season ever.

Roberto Clemente, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, Willie Stargell, Stan Musial, Lou Brock, Ernie Banks, Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Frank Robinson and Pete Rose would disagree that the 1930s were the biggest hitter's era. The 1950s & 1960s were at least equal if not greater. There was just a lot better pitching.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by boysblue

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

Carlton should get some love. I also think he lead the league in facial contortions on the mound for a number of years too.

[olecow]

Warren Spahn. Hands down.

[RCMcKenzie]

Testing...1,2,3...

[Tabe]

Kershaw has the lowest ERA of any starter in the live ball era. He has a good case.

Koufax was only great with a super-high mound, expanded strike zone, and Dodger Stadium. Look at his Non-Dodger Stadium stats. He has no case.

Lefty Grove dominated for a long time AFTER B being held or of the majors longer than he should have been. He has a great case.

Steve Carlton won 4 CYAs and was generally awesome. He has a great case.

Randy Johnson put up ridiculous numbers for a long time. 5 CYAs but also tanked half a season to force a trade. He has a great case.

My pick would be Lefty Grove.

[cardsagain74]

Steve Carlton has no case. His lifetime numbers were the left-handed version of Phil Niekro. Other than his 1972 season, Carlton's Cy Young awards were based on how both guys' best years gave you a 23-10 record pitching for that era's great Phillies teams but a 20-17 record for the Braves then.

Obviously a great pitcher, but not the maybe best of all time lefty caliber of his reputation.

Plus, Randy Johnson's career is clearly superior to Carlton's. A higher lifetime WAR despite pitching more than 1000 fewer innings. Carlton's lifetime ERA is barely better, despite Johnson pitching during the steroid era and half his career in the AL. And Johnson still got to 300 wins in a five-man rotation era.

You can argue Grove, Kershaw, Johnson, maybe Spahn, maybe Plank, maybe a prime Koufax. Obviously it's so tough to compare the different generations.

Oh and as far as Koufax, it's a myth that he may have been so mediocre away from Dodger stadium. 86-46 with a 3.04 ERA and a 1.167 WHIP on the road lifetime. Not too shabby.

[brewing]

Kershaw is 49.6 innings behind Koufax.
To match Koufax he would have to do the following over his next 49.6 innings.
Lose 13 games
Give up 39 hits and walk 240 batters.
31 of those hits need to be HR's
Give up 96 Earned Runs, resulting in a nifty 17.12 ERA

And he'd still have more wins and strikeouts than Koufax. Keep in mind the difference of eras too. Koufax played in a pitching era and Kershaw in a hitter's era.
Same number of Cy Young Awards. Kershaw has 7 top 5 finishes in the award voting, Koufax has 4.

Maybe we tend to honor the baseball from the past more because we dig vintage baseball cards. But the numbers don't lie, Kershaw is better than the left arm of God.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ershcl01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...oufasa01.shtml

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

Oh and as far as Koufax, it's a myth that he may have been so mediocre away from Dodger stadium. 86-46 with a 3.04 ERA and a 1.167 WHIP on the road lifetime. Not too shabby.

The "road" doesn't quite cover things fully. Here's the numbers:

Sandy at Dodger Stadium: 57-15, 715.1 IP, 109 ER, 1.37 ERA
Everywhere else: 108-72, 1609 IP, 604 ER, 3.38 ERA

Now, to be fair, Koufax pitched at LA Coliseum a fair bit and that was horrendous for lefties. He got lit up there - 17-23 with a 4.33 ERA. So let's exclude that.

So now we get: 91-49, 1264 IP, 438 ER, 3.12 ERA. That's good but not exactly out of this world other than the W-L. But that's basically 5 seasons of 18-10 with a 3.12 ERA. Not HOF-level. Heck, one year during Koufax's hot run from 63-66, the entire NL had an ERA of 3.29.

When you add in the fact he has the fewest IP of any starter in the HOF - even Dennis Eckersley, who got in as a reliever, has 900 more innings - the numbers just aren't kind to Koufax.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Testing...1,2,3...

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.

"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

[GaryPassamonte]

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

[tjenkins]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I have to agree with this. Spahn is easily my choice. Not to take anything away from Koufax but longetity had to bear some weight. You could possibly add 50 more wins in the 3 years Spahn lost to military service. I realize Koufax was dominating in his years played but I like Spahn's overall body of work.

[luciobar1980]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

Warren Spahn won 363 games, most by a modern day pitcher. He also lost 3 years to military service. It's possible he would have won 400 games. He had thirteen 20 win seasons. I realize today's metrics don't value wins, but Spahn was incredible. He wasn't flashy. Maybe that's why he gets so little support.

I agree a lot with this. He's not a "sexy" pick. I don't mean that literally.. he just wasn't a flashy hero type.

[clydepepper]

43 posts and only three mentioned Warren Spahn!

I have always been a Koufax fan, but he is only the lefty GOAT for Peak Value.

Kershaw, at this point, would be second, IMO, for shorter careers, but Randy Johnson's peak value edges his.

Grove, Spahn and Johnson are tied, in my view, for Career Value Lefty GOAT..

...with Carlton just a tick below.


.

[JustinD]

Johnson for sure.

What if's don't count in my mind because then I give Johnson Koufax's park and higher mound and he get's more dominant..

6' 10" off a 15" 60's mound?

Ouch.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I posted a 1982 Fleer Fernando Valenzuela last night to check if pics were working. For some reason it disappeared. Not a big deal, just pointing it out for the folks working on the board.



"Strike Out King". Fernando-mania was a big deal in the early eighties...Rob

"If you have a sombrero, throw it to this guy!!!!" Although in this day and age Vin would probably get in trouble for saying that.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

[Koufax32fan]

Wow! People have a lot of very strong opinions. Based on my username, you might think you know my vote. This reminds me of the debates over MVP - what does valuable mean? What does best mean?

Let's put it this way. If you told me that you could take any pitcher at his peak and put him on the mound to win one all-important game - Game 7 of the World Series say - there is only one pitcher I would choose and that is Koufax.

If you told me that I could have any pitcher during his peak period to pitch a complete season to save a manager's job and get his team to the World Series, I would choose Koufax.

By the way, that includes lefties and righties (even though I would consider Walter Johnson for the season and Babe Ruth for the game).

If you told me that I could have any left handed pitcher for his career to build a team around, well then I would be considering between Grove, Spahn and Randy Johnson.

For just one pitch, Sidd Finch!

[thecapeleague]

agreed.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by boysblue

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

I agree.