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  #1  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:29 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

This thread is highly speculative in nature. But here goes...let's add back the 5 years that Teddy Ballgame lost because he served his country in WWII and the Korean War. Would there by any doubt that he was the best hitter ever...pretty much like he wanted to be known as.

I'm sure people have their own ideas as to better hitters, let me know who they are and why. Thanks.

Peter

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  #2  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:36 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Joe D.

but out of the guys I did see play -

Tony Gwynn might have been the best hitter.

An amazing 5-year stretch from 93-97 with other amazing years throughout his career.

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  #3  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:38 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Josh Adams

I also did not get to see Wiliams play. However, the best hitter I ever say was Frank Thomas in the 1990s. That guy was lights out.

Best hitter ever? Gotta be Joe Jackson.

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  #4  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:48 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Josh,

I like your pick of Shoeless Joe, however, how do we know he was really that good. Aren't we just looking at the numbers and feel badly about him being treated so poorly in the Black Sox scandal.

Peter

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  #5  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:48 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Jason L

but it's one of the usual suspects, I'm sure
Here's the list from Baseball-Reference:

1. Ty Cobb+* .3664 L
2. Rogers Hornsby+ .3585 R
3. Joe Jackson* .3558 L
4. Lefty O'Doul* .3493 L
5. Ed Delahanty+ .3459 R
6. Tris Speaker+* .3447 L
7. Ted Williams+* .3444 L
8. Billy Hamilton+* .3443 L
9. Dan Brouthers+* .3421 L
Babe Ruth+* .3421 L

Gwynn is #20 at .338

but this kind of thing usually reverts to splitting hairs, so I would just say that anyone with a BA over .333 was generally getting the job done better than anyone else

PS - one of my New Year's Resolutions was to more regularly resort to making broad generalizations, even when the situation doesn't necessarily dictate
PPS - now I see why people fight for Lefty O'Doul to be in th HOF...weird

edited to add: look at all the lefties!

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  #6  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:50 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Josh Adams

Peter,
Good points.
First, I am only look at numbers, because I don't have anything else to go by. Second, in all honesty, I don't feel that bad for him. He took the money, and.... well, that's for another thread!

I guess if we just base on pure stats, I'll stick with Joe.

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  #7  
Old 01-18-2007, 01:59 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Denny

Even Ty Cobb said that Jackson was the best Hitter ever!

Denny Walsh

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  #8  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:19 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: fkw

Babe Ruth by far. .342 lifetime average. Broke the career HR record 500+ times.

Best Example
In 1920 Ruth hit 54 HRs....Pittsburgh hit 16, Cincinnati hit 18, Boston AL hit 22, Boston NL hit 23, Brooklyn hit 28, Detroit hit 30, St.Louis NL hit 32, Chicago NL hit 34, Cleveland hit 35, Washington hit 36, Chicago AL hit 37, Philadelphia AL hit 44, New York NL 46, St.Louis AL hit 50, Philadelphia NL hit 64.
So Ruth alone outhomered 14 of the 15 other teams in 1920, all while batting .376.

And last time I looked, a Dinger was better than a slap single or a gap double!

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  #9  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:21 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Jeremy

My grandfather saw Williams play & told me he was the best hitter he ever saw. He ran into Williams at a steak house in Florida and paid a waiter at the restaurant $50 to go get a baseball for him at the closest store. Well, the waiter went & got a ball for him. Teddy Ballgame inscribed the ball to myself & Grandpa (Ted mispelled my name, which my grandma "fixed"). To this day, it is the center of my collection.

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  #10  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:30 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Denny

Frank,
I see your point.....But, Jackson played in the Deadball era...Ruth didn't & Jackson was said to be able to hit it where they weren't...even over da fence!
I am a natural fan of Gehrig and Mays, when it comes to starting a fantacy team

Denny Walsh

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  #11  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:33 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Jeremy,

It looks like the centerpiece for your collection was well-chosen. Williams lost 5 prime years in his career to the war and when he came back from the Korean War he wasn't nearly the player he was before the Korean War.

Peter

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  #12  
Old 01-18-2007, 02:42 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Jerry

I lean towards Hornsby. He had a 5 year stretch where he averaged batting over 400.
JMHO

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  #13  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:00 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Cobby33

Even after losing those years and the injuries he suffered in Korea, IMO he's the best ever.

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  #14  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:00 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Joe Jones

Cobb was the man! Look at his numbers. I think if he would have been swinging for the fences, he probably would have hit many homers too. That just wasnt his style, or the style of the game at that time.

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  #15  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:01 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Jeremy

I probably should have qualified my grandfather's statement by saying that he saw Ruth(early thirties), Gehrig, Dimaggio, Foxx, Hornsby, Greenberg, etc. Let alone Mantle, Mays, & Aaron. There's nothing like firsthand knowledge.

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  #16  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:10 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: PC

Ty Cobb would have picked Harry Heilmann and Joe Jackson, in addition to himself. I beleive he said as much.

It is hard to pick just one from my short list: Ruth, Williams, Aaron, Cobb, Heilmann, Hornsby.

But I think for the combination of power and average, it is tough to top Ruth and Williams.

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  #17  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:15 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

In 1915 Joe Jackson hit 5 HR's in 461 AB's
and Ruth hit 4 in 92 AB's

In fact over the years the two played simultaneously (1914-1920)
Joe JacksonAB'sRunsHitsHR'sRBI'sBA
Totals31964991081365240.338
Babe Ruth
Totals1567360514103367 0.328

what's that approximately 65%-70% of the production in about 50% of the at bats

If you take out 1920 then Ruth has approximately 50-55% of the numbers of Jackson with around 40% of the atbats









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  #18  
Old 01-18-2007, 03:59 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Dan Lundrigan

Arguably one of the greatest hitters of all time and a world class outdoorsman as well.Lost 5 years of baseball to answer his country`s call to fight in WW2 and Korea as a Marine fighter pilot!To me Ted Williams the MAN is even greater than Ted Williams the ballplayer!

Jeremy I also have an autographed ball of Ted with Johnny Pesky and Bobby Doerr centerpiece of my collection as well it was given to me by a friend of my mothers!

Wish I could have seen him play

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  #19  
Old 01-18-2007, 04:01 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

It's difficult to argue against Babe Ruth being the best but I have two points I'd like to bring out: 1) Yankee stadium was tailor-made for his swing, and 2) he had Lou Gehrig batting behind him for a good portion of his career. Both of these are significant advantages which Ted Williams did not have.

Peter

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  #20  
Old 01-18-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER

1st....Babe Ruth had a 10-year head start on Lou Gehrig. Gehrig did not start playing
regularly until 1925. Incidently, Ruth was Walked 2056 times, so I am not sure of what
you are alluding to by saying he preceding Gehrig.

2nd....As, far as Ruth is concerned....no stadium was too big for him. Ruth was hitting
over 50 HR's for several years before Yankee Stadium was built in 1923. And, he still
holds the record of hitting a ball 600 feet.

I followed Ted Williams career from 1949 to 1960. I saw him play at Yankee Stadium
many times, and even though I was a Yankee fan I always admired Ted....after all he
had the same name as me.

Also, I talked with Ted at two different BB card shows during the 1980's. He was nice
enough to spend 45 mins. talking with me the at the 1st show.

TED Z

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  #21  
Old 01-18-2007, 05:25 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Ken McMillan

gee, I should be on the list. I have a career 515 batting average and one of my hits is off Lee Smith. That's with 4 years with the Cubs.

Ken

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  #22  
Old 01-18-2007, 05:54 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Brett

My uncle saw Babe Ruths first professional home run he it in Toronto ! I think he also told me he saw Ty Cobb play. He had an amazing memory for his age at the time when he was 94.

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  #23  
Old 01-18-2007, 06:04 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Aaron Cowan

Ruth hit more home runs than entire teams...thats pretty impressive. Also, sometimes being the best hitter doesn't involve getting a hit. A walk can never be an out. That's one thing I've never understood about Bonds: why walk him 80% of the time when 60-70% of the time he will make an out. OBP is the true measure of an effective batter.

Also, Lefty O'Doul put his number up in basically four good years and really only played six years. He played in a time of inflated BAs and is as close to getting into the HOF as Maris.

Aaron Cowan
acowan19@gmail.com

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  #24  
Old 01-18-2007, 06:30 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: fkw

The knock on O'Doul is the total ABs. He chose to play most of his career in the PCL (a league almost as good as the ML at the time). He was a San Francisco man (born lived died), he chose to play on the West coast and probably made more money playing right here at home. Why not?

With that said, he also wasted his first 4 years in the Major Leagues as a pitcher (like Ruth), then became one of the better hitters of his time (.319, .398, .383, .336, .368), and had the season hit record for many decades until Ichiro broke it.

But, he should be in the HOF mainly because of his contributions to baseball period. He basically started pro baseball in Japan (he is a Japanese HOFer), and managed and coached for many many years.

There is a reason that O'Doul cards bring more $$ than some HOFers. Collectors know what type of person he was and how important he was to baseball as a sport.

Im right here in the Bay Area, and after DiMaggio, no one is more famous in SF than Lefty. When I was young, my grandma and grandpa only spoke of 2 players, Babe Ruth and Lefty O'Doul and as a kid I though both were equals.

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  #25  
Old 01-18-2007, 06:37 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: howard

O'Doul also had his best years in the Baker Bowl which was one of the greatest hitters park ever in any league.

Williams benefitted from being a lefty hitter in mostly righty lineups for his entire career.

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  #26  
Old 01-18-2007, 07:24 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Aaron Cowan

Yes, I forgot about O'Doul's contribution to Japanese baseball which was huge. This would put him over the top and in the category of a pioneer.

Aaron Cowan
acowan19@gmail.com

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  #27  
Old 01-18-2007, 07:41 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ted pretty much lost 5 full seasons to his military service. If you extrapolate his numbers (averaging out what he did prior to and after the time periods in question) he'd possibly have broken Ruths HR record. He'd definitely have about 3500 hits and he'd probably be the all time RBI leader (even today) with somewhere near 2400+. Who knows, those were 5 prime seasons, he could have done more than the extrapolated numbers.

Without a doubt people can make a very realistic arguement about Ted Williams being the greatest hitter of all time.

Look at A-Rod (I'm not a big A-Rod fan), holy crap that guy is throwing up some pretty incredible numbers at an early age. We'll see where longevity will take him. Look at Kid Griffey, he had some incredible numbers and then he just dropped off the charts. Everyone thought he'd be the next lifetime HR king.

It's just so difficult to compare ball players of different eras. Each era saw a different approach to conditioning with this latest era having the most competitive physical players/specimens the game has ever seen. Ok, so steroids are a part of it. In any case, could you imagine what kind of numbers Ruth could have put up if he really put his mind to conditioning himself? Who knows. It only leads to that "what if..." or "what could've happened".. or "woulda, coulda, shoulda..." game/nonsense.

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  #28  
Old 01-18-2007, 07:55 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: fkw

Ruth lost 1800 ABs in his first 5 years pitching too

Thats about another 150 HRs, give or take

864 HRs would be a tough one to top.

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  #29  
Old 01-18-2007, 08:14 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

You know Frank, that's a very good point. If you extrapolate using the lower figures (for that time period) it would still put him over 800 lifetime HRs.

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  #30  
Old 01-18-2007, 09:42 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Mark Burke

why is it that Tony Gwynn is the only modern hitter in the top 20? And, if I am not mistaken, there is nobody in the top 20 lifetime hitters who had their peak year after 1940 except for Williams and Gwynn. Gwynn arguably could have been a lifetime .400 hitter if he played in Cobb's era. And, maybe Ruth could have hit 100 home runs in a season if he had the same trainer as Barry. It's fun to debate but that's all it will ever be. You just can't compare eras in sports where records are not measured in milliseconds or centimeters.

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  #31  
Old 01-19-2007, 09:09 AM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

fkw,

I realize that Ruth spent the early portion of his career pitching, but in a way that's similar to a guy that doesn't get to the majors late. He should not get extra credit as a hitter for that.

As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 situations in which a hitter should get extra credit. The first would be if his entry into the majors was delayed because of his skin color. The second would be if his career was shortened because he served his country.

Peter

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  #32  
Old 01-19-2007, 09:28 AM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Peter Thomas

I did get to see Williams play between 1946 ( first game with my dad) and 1960. I was at his last game and was about 60 feet from the landing spot of his last home run. I was an MIT freshman and walked to each game that September hoping to see what I did see. He certainly was the best hitter I ever saw, but I think Ruth was even better. Without the wars he would have had about 700 home runs and maybe stuck around an extra year to pass Ruth. Ruth if he had been a possition player from the beginning would have have 800 plus. Williams won 7 batting titles and by current rules would have had 8 ( not enought at bats, but plenty of plate appearences) If he had not missed those 5 years it is hard to think he would not have won at least 3 more.

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  #33  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:20 AM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Just for the record, it was George Sisler who held the single season hit record that Ichiro broke...not Lefty O'Doul.

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  #34  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:56 AM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: sagard

Tony Gwynn was a one dimensional hitter who likely isn't even in the top ten of his era. He doesn't even belong in this posting.

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  #35  
Old 01-19-2007, 11:09 AM
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Posted By: Dylan

its funny how many dont like to consider current players in "best ever" conversations. as much as i love vintage baseball the game today is played on another level. In every pro sport as time progresses the game is played on a higher and higher level. But since certain statistics are so incredible (if taken in the context of todays game) in the early days of baseball some like to just look at that and say most the greatest players played at the turn of the century through the 1920's. but we know thats not true. I think its really only fair to compare players to other players of their era, as the game and the way its played has changed so much. as for Ted, he is one of, if not the greatest hitter to play baseball. However if Albert Pujols stays healthy I believe at the end of his career he may be looked at as the greatest hitter of all time.

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  #36  
Old 01-19-2007, 11:22 AM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Darren

Babe Ruth by a MILE. What else would the Bambino have to do besides hitting .342 and 714 HR. Power and Frequency.

I think if he hit .342 with 500 HR we would still give him consideration as one of the best hitters ever, but he went beyond that. And as for playing in the Dead Ball era, he single handedly brought baseball out of the deadball era.

What if? I think I would give consideration to Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig if we add what if's into the discussion, but the Babe needs no what if's!

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  #37  
Old 01-19-2007, 11:26 AM
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Posted By: JK

Peter,

Sorry, but the argument doesnt make sense. Ruth lost at bats because he was pitching in the majors, not hitting. Joe D. lost at bats b/c he was serving his country, not hitting pitches.

Comparing Ruth's pitching to a player who entered the majors late is like comparing apples to oranges - the reason players enter the majors late (in most instances) is that they are not yet good enough or ready to play in the majors. Ruth was ready - he just wasnt being utilized correctly yet.

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  #38  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:08 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

JK,

I'm just trying to limit the situations where extra credit should be given. Using your criteria, Jimmy Foxx can be considered the best hitting catcher of all-time. Foxx came up to the majors as a catcher and he wasn't properly used at first base so let's just say he had the most home runs for a catcher.

A lot of players can make the claim they were playing the wrong position or injured or...

I'm adopting Bill James position and that is only a delay because of the color of the ballplayer's skin or missed years because of serving his country at war should be considered.

Peter

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  #39  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:10 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Brett

With so many crappy pitchers today, Ruth could hit 1000 HR's and Cobb could have had 5000 hits... but most pitchers today would be affraid to pitch to them, so they would probably give them nothing to hit and walk them alot.

I think i read in the newspaper last week that over 100 players in the majors tested postive for steroids. For those of you who think Roger Clemens is the best pitcher ever, wasn't he caught using steroids ? i mean thats like calling Barry Bonds better than Babe Ruth !

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  #40  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:15 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PETER

Josh K brings up a great point......with only 16 teams in the Majors and a huge Farm system
behind them, competition to get into the Majors was huge back then. Pitchers like Alexander,
Plank, and CYoung were 23, 24, or 25 when they entered the "Bigs".

Babe Ruth was only a teenager (18 or 19) when he started pitching for the Boston Americans.
Ruth is certainly the most amazing sports figure in America in the 1st half of the 20th Century.
And, is right up there with Teddy Roosevelt, his cousin FDR, and Thomas Edison as the greatest
Americans of that period.

TED Z

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  #41  
Old 01-19-2007, 12:46 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Ted- interesting analogy putting Babe Ruth up there with Thomas Edison...sort of comparing the light bulb to the home run. But I agree Ruth was one of the most significant American personalities of his era, and it went way beyond hitting a baseball, which he could do better than anyone who ever played the game.

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  #42  
Old 01-19-2007, 01:34 PM
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Posted By: peter chao

Barry, Ted, Guys,

There's no doubt in my mind that Ruth and baseball is similar to Jordan and basketball. They are personalities that went beyond the confines of their sport.

However, I'm asking about the best hitter. If Teddy Ballgame wasn't such an arrogant SOB he could have batted over .400 several times by going to the opposite field. But no...he kept on trying to pull into the infield shift.

But what can you say, actually the time he batted .401 was sheer arrogance. Going into the last double-header in 1941 his batting average actually rounded up to .400, but instead of acting normal and sitting it out like most of us, he got something like 5 or 6 hits and raised his average to .401.

Peter

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  #43  
Old 01-19-2007, 01:37 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I never saw either of them play except on film, and there is no question in my mind that Williams was one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game...but the edge goes to Ruth.

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  #44  
Old 01-19-2007, 01:45 PM
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Posted By: fkw

Williams hit .406

Dan, Your right about Sisler. I was thinking Hit Record when it was really a tie for NL Hit Record.

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  #45  
Old 01-19-2007, 01:59 PM
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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In 1941, indeed Ted Williams batted .406.....he went into that final day doubleheader batting .3996.
It wasn't "arrogance" that made him play that day....it was his great love of the game. He got 6 hits
between the 2 games, and only Ted could perform that fete (perhaps Ruth could, too).

The "key" to batting .400 is getting enough WALKS, which reduces your official times at bat....and,
in 1941, Ted walked 145 times, therefore he only had 456 AB's, and 185 hits.

The high # of WALKS factor is one of the main reasons no one has batted .400 since Ted did it. And,
why is this so....well, which player since has had Ted's eye's or the patience to wait out pitches ?

Ted Z

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  #46  
Old 01-19-2007, 02:10 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Ted, Guys

You hit it right on the nose, it takes somebody that walks a lot, is patient, and has a great eye. It sounds like the infamous Bonds. I know Barry has a huge cloud over his head but he's the only name we've missed in our discussion of who could arguably called the best hitter of all-time. If he had not taken steroids, amphetamines and whatever.

Who knows...maybe history will be kinder to him than we are...and one day he will be known as the best hitter of all time.

Peter

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Old 01-19-2007, 02:33 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: howard

A couple of things to keep in mind about why Williams might have played on the last day of the '41 season:

Batting .400 did not have quite the significance in 1941 as it would today. Bill Terry had batted over .400 as recently as 1930 and Joe Dimaggio made a serious run at it in 1939.

Ted was only twenty-three at the time and figured that he'd bat .400 in some other season.

He still had a chance to overtake Dimaggio as the RBI leader for the year which might have tipped the MVP voting in his favor.

Or maybe he just loved to play.

BTW, I would guess that had the Babe put his mind to it he probably could have batted .400 a time or two himself.

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Old 01-19-2007, 02:50 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: barrysloate

Bonds's four seasons from 2001-04 match up statistically to any player's in the history of the game, including Ruth, Williams, Hornsby, or anybody.

BUT.....

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Old 01-19-2007, 02:56 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: Bob

Rod Carew. Can't believe no one has mentioned him. How soon we forget.....

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Old 01-19-2007, 03:13 PM
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Default O/T Ted Williams Was the Best Hitter

Posted By: peter chao

Barry, Guys,

With regard to Barry Bonds whick stats are you talking about, I know Barry Bonds matches up well when it comes to OBP.

Peter

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