Reproduction Old Judge Cards?

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Posted By: Rob

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&item=330032461355&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&rd=1

It's funny how people WANT to believe these cards are real, be a heck of a bargain, heres why they aren't:

1. The frame and black backing are new.
2. Interesting how Sam Thompson, Radbourne and Ward, all HOFers are in a group of 8, far more probable you would have 1 HOF at most in a random group of 8.
3. The cards, even if real, are trimmed.
4. The cards seems to be lying perfectly flat on the board, not likely with these cards having a tendency to warp.

I know there are other resasons why these cards are fake, I'm sure there are nonbidder Old Judge collectors to add to the above list, so feel free to do so.


And things about the seller make this suspect:

1. Seller claim of a money back guarantee doesn't mean much, heres why:
a. A claim against Paypal will yield only $1000 if the seller runs off with the money and closes up his bank account so Paypal can't get money from the seller. A highly probable scenario given the seller FB and other products being sold.

2. The seller tries too hard to portray himself as a rube. Knows enough to list the cards in the right category, seems too smart to write a decent description with a load of misspelled words and the rube-ish manner in which he answered questions.

But even if the seller is honest, it's still a hassle to get back your money.


I suppose a reasonable possibility for bidding on those cards could be if you lived in southern Indiana to personally inspect the cards prior to paying, but unless you're farther away than Columbus or Vincennes, it seems like you would be wasting your time. (ok...Bedford has some interesting limestone carvings, suppose if you want to look at great tombstone art, you could be a tourist in Bedford while checking out those cards).

However, there are people on this board who bid on these likely fakes and would not be visiting Bedford. So here's a simple question for you people: are you greedy or gullible to bid on those cards?

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Posted By: fkw

The key is they are 2" by 4"

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Posted By: barrysloate

Besides the obvious 2 x 4 measurement, they were also purchased at an estate sale. That's usually the kiss of death.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I bid on this lot because I've been emailing the seller with different questions which he never posted with the auction item. You're right about the 4 x 2 comment but I think he meant a 4 x 2 layout on the paper which the cards were pasted or adhered.

Also, he sent a larger picture of the cards to me and they do look real. It's hard to tell by the photo but they do appear real. Also, if real, they are definitely trimmed down on the borders. The seller also indicated that the cards have a cardboard backing which is adhered to the paper in the frame.

Believe me, I thought about this for a while and the only reason I bid was because of the money back guarantee. Low seller feedback didn't really instill a lot of confidence.


Do you want to see something that is mind boggling:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320032291853&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=330032461355&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget

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Posted By: Rob

Seems like I remember reading about some very good reproduction OJ's done in the past. Perhaps there's someone with more info on that.

Don't know how you could tell if the cards are real under glass, even with a good scan. Heck, one could get those pictures from the library of Congress site, photshop the pictures and print up on appropriate glossy paper with a laser printer, and paste on 120 year old cardboard. That'd be a rather cool looking display of OJ's which could fool even an experienced OJ collector at 1st glance. A bit more sophisticated that the run of the mill fakes, but quite doable.

As for the King Kelly lithograph, it's well known there were some very nice color large reproductions done in the early 1990's, worth $25-50 a piece.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I am not sure that greed and gullibility are actually what is in play here.
I think this auction, like all auctions, have elements of risk vs. rewards.

Certainly the seller's apparent lack of knowledge and experience are sources of risk.
Additionally, scans which do not provide the detail necessary to make determinations
regarding the cards are additional sources. And as you point out,
there are many elements of risk here.

Some can be explained more easily than others. However, if you want to estimate the
potential value if the cards are genuine, sum the estimated price for
authentic OJs of Ward, Clarkson, Radbourn, and Thompson.
Note that the other cards are (both) nominal dupes.

So what you have are two dupes and four HOFers. As you point out,
not a typical random distribution. But this distribution is not portrayed as random.
These cards are hand selected for framing. And yes, the frame is not period.
But it not necessarilly of last weeks vintage, either, and could have needed replacing.

I chose to stay away from this offering. But cmonnow and oldoriole
(two knowledgable OJ collectors), as well as others, explored this potential.

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Posted By: joe

Looking at the Kelly and Delahanty lithos I see that I made a good buy. About a year ago, I got these 2 lithos plus the Anson and O'Rourke in much nicer frames, all for $125 including shipping. I know they're not from 1887, but they sure do look nice on my wall.

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Posted By: Jay

Other than the cards being trimmed I see no reason to believe that there is a problem with them. Rob, I just don't share your view.

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Posted By: Rob

With the cards stuck to paper. The uniformity of shade and card contrast also is a red flag.

I'm no expert on being able to make a reproduced card, but I am confident I could make OJ cards that could pass muster of looking real through glass. The problem is reproducing the worn edges, hence the trimming. I believe there have been select groups of OJ reproductions sold in the past on the inside front page of old SCD's, the HOFer group sounds familiar. Thought someone could had provided information on OJ reproductions.

If the seller was north of Indianapolis rather than south, I would had put in a higher bid than the winner, contingent on pesonal inspection before paying. I can't tell whether the seller would be willing to complete the sale on such a condition, as I didn't email the seller with that proposal. Of course, if there was confidence this was the real deal, I'm sure bidding would had been at least $2000.

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Posted By: Dave Seaborn

I agree with Jay. The cards are real...some look trimmed, but they are real.