the definition of rarity

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Posted By: leon

The definition of rarity in cards is often over used. My fellow collectors allow myself to introduce......... myself ... and, what I believe to be, one of, if not "the", rarest ACC catalogued set. This is 1 of two known cards from it..the other is a xerox picture of Bigbee (the xerox did have to come from somewhere though)......... ....The T231 Fans Cigarettes- Baker......it is a legit card my friends and a welcome addition to the household........regards all

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Nice card, Leon! I've been interested in this "set" for a long time. I was fascinated by the idea that the whole set consisted of one card (Carson Bigbee) for a long time, and that was only known as a photocopy. The appearance of the Baker 10 or so years ago was a stunner for me, but was very "ho, hum" in the hobby press. I believe that Lipset auctioned the Baker once, and I remember feeling that it was undervalued given it's obvious rarity (one of a kind).

Jeff
http://www.seattlehockey.net

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Webster says:

rare (râr) adj. rar·er, rar·est
(1) Infrequently occurring; uncommon.

I say:

Leon has one and everybody else does not.

Nice grab, Leon!

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Posted By: Elliot

It really looks similiar to the Wm. Patterson (V145-1) hockey cards, including the numbering. These cards are of about the same vintage (1923-24). I wonder if the same printer did them up.

Elliot

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Posted By: leon

That's what I thought to myself too...I am still kicking myself for being the underbidder on the Recius (sp?) Wagner card....and that was a few years ago ...This card wasn't cheap but I didn't think I would get another chance at one, at least for a long time, if ever..........regards all....

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Posted By: leon

What I meant in response to Kevin was that it was a "nice" grab.....not that "I have one and no one else does"......who cares....it's friggin' cardboard.... albeit expensive cardboard....later

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Posted By: halleygator

You have to give me a chance to get all my money back...

so would you like to buy my T-231 Fans Cigarette card of Christy Mathewson?

It is the "horizontal pose" variation ... with "Nat'l" erroneously printed after "NY" ... with his name spelled "ATHEWSON" ...

and it was the one card from the set that they didn't produce hardly any of so that they would not have to give away a bunch of cigarettes to kids. No, wait ... that was their goal.

Anyway ... in all seriousness ... it sounds like the card I am proposing would STILL not be as rare as Leon's new baby!!

PS - Leon: What have you found out about FAN CIGARETTES? Were they only around for a small time in a small area? Just wondering why so few of these cards are still around?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Anyone who gets away with spending on cards like you do (1) isn't really married or(2) is obviously a money launderer for the mob. I'l explain my logic. My wife rolls her eyes when I spend $110 on a card; yours lets you get away with multiple $1000's? No way, unless she doesn't know about the $$ to begin with. But, since they all know, somehow (mine can smell it on me, I think), about any legit money we make, your card funds have to be cash and have to be illicit to slip below the radar. Since you're too mellow for a drug dealer and you're not a politician, has to be money laundering for the mob. Fess up, buddy. Confession is good for the soul.

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Posted By: leon

Elliot- they could be related to a hockey set, I am not sure. It has the same "look" as some of the early 20's era card sets I have seen ie...Yeungling, Sweetman etc....except on thinner stock. I am not too familiar with hockey sets so can't say about it in comparison to the one(s) you mentioned.

Hal- if there was a T231 Matty it probably wouldn't be quite as appealing to me as he only played till 1916. The Fans-Baker is his last playing year, 1922. Also, as far as getting all your money back if you ever sell the Delehanty (that I am bringing to the Post Office in a few minutes) you will get all of your money, and then some, back We both did very well on it. (IMHO)There is not much history on them (Fans) but I am sure I will start poking around a little more to find out since I now own it.

Adam- 1) I am married. 2) I am not a money launderer for the mob. You are fairly correct in that she doesn't know too much about the finances. I do 100% of them...or else I would never get away with it. My cash is 100% made from computer sales. I do work straight commission though and my checks are wildly different each 2 weeks...but usually not too bad. As far as dealing drugs goes that is sort of a sore subject....when I was young, dumb, and full of co** I did do those things....and then got introduced to about 10 gold badges flashing in my face one day. I went from hero to zero in about 5 seconds....got all of my ill gotten money and merchandise Rico'd.....(sp?).....and went to the big house for a while....but you asked.....anyway, that was 17 years ago and now I am just a boring, middle aged, family guy...who is somewhat addicted to vintage baseball cards.....you asked.....later ya'll

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Posted By: Art M.

"Jeff Obermeyer wrote - I believe that Lipset auctioned the Baker once.."

That is correct. Unfortunately, I do remember that auction and card. Maybe Leon should contact Lew directly and get the true story about the "Baker" card that was auctioned.

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Posted By: halleygator

Leon told me that he bought the card from Lew Lipsett...

so I am sure he would welcome ANY information about the card's "provenance".

I sure would!

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Posted By: leon

It did come from Lew. I bought it in a normal sale. I know it was bought by him from Christies's about 11-12 years ago. Christie's had sold it to a good customer for somewhere around 15k-16k and the customer returned it for a refund, I presume. Lew then bought it for about $1600 or so. I recall seeing several stories about the card and the legitmacy of it. As far as any legitimacy is concerned I would be interested in hearing any other story. I have looked it over pretty good and can not find anything to make me think it is not a card. It certainly has me fooled if it is not one......I welcome any comments on what others know......best regards

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Posted By: leon

One last thing that I know is that this card did get auctioned a few auctions ago by Lew. I followed that auction. I was told it sold and the person never paid. Quite honestly I don't care if it sold, if it didn't sell (obviously), if there was ever a bidder or not (I was told he renegged), or what happened......as long as the card is real I am fine with it..and I will say I paid a lot more than it was bought for originally...but all cards have taken off since then and the relative price I paid for this was no more out of whack than if you would have bought a Cobb-E94, 11 years ago, for $50.00......and again, it passes my novice judgement as being a card.........regards all

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Posted By: Mike Williams

Enjoy it!

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

It looks so much like a Patterson.

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Posted By: Hankron

My personal recommendation is that you, Leon, put a penny or nickel on top of your rarities when you scan them for this board. Otherwise, you might find them being offered soonafter on eBay or Yahoo.

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Posted By: runscott

There are plenty of web-sites out there (loc, mine and Hal's for instance, but many,many more) where you can find as many card and other images as you desire, so I doubt the scammers will be taking low-grade images from our chat board.

With very few exceptions, scammers sell either doctored reprints (usually Dover or '60s Goudey), or cards made from images on those cheap cds sold on ebay. Basically, they take the path of least resistence.

I decided to forget about being paranoid and go ahead and offer very high-quality images on my web-site - I figure the value to hobbyists offsets the minimal risk. ...and I also look at the images on your site often, and they are highly appreciated.

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Posted By: Hankron

I agree with you Scott. I just thought that Leon might like to have control of of the use of his cards-- many of which are one of a kind. Irrelevant to being listed in auctions, some people might borrow Leon's images for website galleries or such ... It's Leon's choice one way or the other. It may be that Leon is flattered if his card is reprinted on various websites, and feels that this enhances the value-- free publicity. On the other hand, as he already saw his Four Base Hits Kelly offered on eBay once, he may not find this desirable.

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Posted By: runscott

I've had a few people ask if they could use my images, which I always say "yes" to, but I've had others "borrow" them as well - doesn't bother me though.

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

if you'd like to have your Baker become the "plate" card for the Standard Catalog (beginning with the 2005-dated book), replacing the tired Bigbee. I'd also welcome your thoughts on current "catalog" value.

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Posted By: leonl

You are welcome to use the Baker card as a plate for the 2005 catalogue if you wish. If the value stayed the same as 2003 you would be a little low but still in the ballpark.....maybe I am the only one willing to pay gazillions for it so maybe it's high....but I don't think so...You have my email so if you can not use the image from this thread let me know, shoot me an email at work or home, and I will get you a better one....... however, besides it being a first generation scan I don't think it will be much better...

David (Cycleback) ...First of all I always find it just a little uneasy when people talk about me in the threads like I am not going to read them...sort of in the 3rd person....Obviously I read them...so when you talk about me just please say "hi" or something..that way it won't feel odd when I am reading someone's thread and they (you) are talking about me....You have said absolutely NOTHING wrong and nothing that I mind but it just feels weird...As to your thought about using images...I really never mind as long as people do not try to profit from them or scam other folks. I do appreciate being asked first also. I have always been one of the "new" breed of collectors that likes to help.....and as far as I am concerned the T231 is a real card. The only potential ambiguity about it is it's history of being sold and bought...which I could care less about.....One last thing..and this has NOTHING to do with you.......I just wish that folks that say they "know" something about certain subjects (this one included) would answer when asked.....that sort of pisses me off....If I say I know something about a subject, then someone asks me about it, and I don't say anything, it probably means I was full of shi* to start with, which generally I am not, am I ? ....regards all.....

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Posted By: Hankron

... Scott, would you kindly ask Leon to pass the jam, as I am not talk to him ...

Leon (Hi there!), I know that last part wasn't about me. As the problem is how to get David (talking 3rd person about myself-- very sophisticated) to quit talking, not start talking.