My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

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Posted By: Joseph

Elsewhere on this forum, I have posted what I hoped would become a poll about the opinions of
the fine folks on this forum on the PSA 8 Gretzky. Please, oh forum leader, turn it into a poll.

Anyway, so far NO ONE AMONG THE KNOWLEDGEABLE COLLECTORS here believes the card has not been cut from
a sheet and/or trimmed later. Read the book, if you have not, and you'll see how Mastro reacted when the
reporter put the question to him for the umpteenth time.

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Posted By: JimB

Peter,
I agree with you. Nobody who claims or opines it was trimmed, including Bill Heitman or Bill Hughes have offered actual evidence. They just say that they knew. Either nobody can or nobody is willing to produce actual evidence of anything.

Even Ray, the guy who sold it to Mastro won't say where he got it. The sheet story is just a rumor too. No evidence. If he cut it from a sheet, what does he have to lose by saying that now? The lawyers could chime in on his potential liablilty, but I don't think he would be on the hook for that at this point. He did not have PSA encapsulate it. He did not have Sotheby's sell it. And if the rumors are true, he told Mastro that it was cut from a sheet. He seems to be envious that Mastro made so much money off the card. Yet, he sold it to Mastro for more than anybody had ever sold a baseball card for before. If he stole it from an old lady's attic, then I guess there is still reason to be secretive about the source. If this Ray guy is still around, he would seem to be the one who could unravel this mystery. But apparently he feels he has something to lose if he does.
JimB

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I can't belive what I am reading. If you get hit in the head with a bat and you where the only one there does that mean it is not true.
Bill Huges saw the card and graded it. He then said it was trimmed. Heitman has held the same card in his hands and said it was trimed. McNall bought the card and said it was trimmed. What in the heck am I missing here. You have to know that this is a great story. This is about a hobbie that seems to deny any thing that might make waves. A week ago you could read how many people question PSA. Now you have the same people saying it can't be true. Make up you minds. The fact is the card is trimmed. Is there anyone that is on this site denying the fact that cards have been sold without telling the customer that they have been fixed. This is like a man who goes to AA and says Im here for the girls.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

So we are supposed to take the word of a guy who essentially says he fraudulently graded the card? Oh, OK, sure, why not? But the word of Bill Mastro means nothing? Has Rob Lifson put his reputation on the line to say the card was trimmed? Not to my knowledge. Kind of a risky business plan for PSA, knowingly slabbing a trimmed card to launch their business, don't you think? OH and let me add Michael Wentz's recent statement at least as I understood him to the effect that the supposed "before" photo adds nothing to the case.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Pteter,
No your not supposed to take the word of one man. I have given you the names of at least four people Huges, Heitman, Evans, and McNall. I think that there names are as important to this situation as that of Mastro. I dont see Mastro comeing on this site and saying it's not true. .
Peter you can name all the names you want but I am talking about the man who graded the card. I am talking about the man who bought the card. If you can get me two people that are closer to the story than they are please have them come on up.If Mastro belives that what is being said is not true where is he? I know that you don't represent him or Psa, or do you?

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Posted By: Rich Mueller

There are, apparently, 12 or 13 T206 cards graded PSA 10. I'm sure there are a few others of similar quality in SGC holders. Does anyone know the origin of any of those cards? Might some be from the infamous Wagner sheet or another? Or just freaks that survived?

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Posted By: JimB

"What in the heck am I missing here."

Actual evidence rather than rumor and innuendo. Nobody so far claims they saw it get trimmed. Nobody who saw it before and after is making that claim. The mystery photo is supposedly inconclusive according to Mike Wentz who has seen it. Bruce McNall's opinion is frankly worth nothing to me. He was not a card person. Somebody apparently told him it was trimmed and he believed them. Bill Hughes said he believed it to be trimmed, but he did not say why. Josh Evan's claim in the book about what Bill Mastro said to him is the most damning piece to the puzzle, but it is far from providing any conclusive evidence.
JimB

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

How do you know, other than his say-so, that Bill Hughes is the "one" who graded the card? My guess is that on something so important, and the very first card PSA graded, several people would have been involved.

Your approach is interesting -- you take what some people say at face value, yet discount others such as Bill Mastro himself.

IF this were a hypothetical proceeding where the presumption was that the card was not trimmed, so far I have not seen enough evidence to overcome that presumption.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Where did I miss Bill Mastro saying it's not true. As for McNall not being in the business you are correct. The thing is he bought the card and in doing so he was told of its condition. I dont have to be a doctor to know if I have cancer.

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Posted By: leon

I don't think Mastro saying it's not true necessarily makes it true. Personally I don't know but certainly could not swear it's trimmed....Could you?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Would a fairer statement be it's pretty clear it is not factory cut?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

This link was provided just a few posts above in this thread. Read it and you will see Mr. Mastro's denial.

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_19.html

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Leon
I would have to say that I truely belive that this card was trimmed.I was a close friend of Bill Huges at the time the card was graded. He was positive the card was trimmed as well as Bill Heitman. They where partners in a litho company at that time. It was not a secret as many of you out there think. When this card was graded many people in this hobbie knew what said about this card. The reason this is happenng now is because of the book.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Shelly, do you recall what Hughes told you were the reasons for his belief? In other words, was it based on his observation of the card, was it based on things people directly involved had admitted to him, etc. And do you have any thoughts on why he kept his silence until interviewed by O'Keefe? This all would shed some light on the credibility of his claim.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Huges stated that the card size was not the same size of that of Piedmont card.It also showed under a microscope that the card was cut differently from all other Piedmonts that he had seen. I asked him why a Piedmont card? He told me that Piedmonts where different in size from Sweet Caparol and other t206 backs. He also stated that the card never saw a pack.
You wont belive why I think Bill never said anything but here it is. No one ever asked him about the card untill now. I don't think that anyone of you knew that he was the person who graded it. It took a book to bring out the story. I will tell you this one more time. There where many people that know the story but never said a word. Most of you know about doctoring of cards but I don,t think you tell you customers. Well if no one asked no one told.

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Posted By: leon

In that article Bill Mastro did indeed refute it being trimmed.....So the story goes and there is still no positive proof....and it's in a PSA8 holder (which is neither here nor there)....no proof so far though....

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Shelly I have heard for years that Hughes was involved in grading the card. He also said so in something published on the web, let me see if I can find it. Edited to add, here ya go, from 2002.

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/scoop_article.asp?ai=921&si=127

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Ok so you knew Bill Huges authenticated the card. What does that have to do with what he said about the card. I said most of you did no know that Bill authenticated the card. I belive that the man who graded the card knows what he saw. If Mastro says its not true then that is his side of the story. I belive what Huges and Heitman told me. What reason would these two people have to lie. They gain nothing from it. On the other hand I would say that Mastro does. Leon I stand corrected I didn't see that in the book.
This can go on for ever. The only way you will be convinced if the new owner has the guts to let someone else grade the card. I don't see that happening. So we have to belive what we want to belive.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What was Bill Hughes' incentive to knowingly slab a trimmed card for a company whose business plan was to capitalize on a perceived need for third party authentication to prevent rampant fraud in the card industry?

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

You read his quote. He thought he was doing the right thing for the Hobbie.
Right or wrong that is what he belived. Why do you think he did it? Why do think that Heitman would say the same thing? Why would Mastro say its not true?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Shelly -you say you were a good friend of Bill Hughes but you are certainly putting his head on the chopping block. Did the two of you have a falling out?

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

No. Why am I putting his head on a chopping block. Bill stated in the book what I am saying now. He is a big boy and when he was asked a question he gave an honest answer. I think that Bill did what he thought was the right thing to do at that time. He did what he belived to be the best thing for the hobbie. He said "look what has happened to that card since it was graded"
I am not sure if he would do the same thing today. What surprises me the most about all of this. Is that so many people are in denial.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Sorry Shelly. I haven't read the book yet. I'm a little behind the curve.

Shelly- you may not be able to answer this but do you think everyone who bought the card had the knowledge that it was trimmed? Do you know if the current owner is aware of it?

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

The only people that I know for sure where Gretzky and McNall. I think that Gidwitz found about it. The new owner must be aware of it by now. Like I said it seemed that a lot of people knew of this at the start and then over the years it didn't seem to matter. Now that the book is out the questions about this card are starting over.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You touched on the point of my question. The new owner must know by now, but did he when he purchased the card? That was before the book was published.

And while this is merely an aside, it seems to me this card has changed hands quite a few times considering it is the crown jewel of the hobby. Most artifacts of that stature usually remain with their owners for a long time.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Money Money Money. Most people knew about this book before the last sale. Mike had been working on it for at least two years. I know that he talked to many people about this book at the Anheim National. I think that was way before the card was sold. I have to say this. Because a painting is hanging in the New York Museum Of Art it does not mean it's authentic. I think if people want to belive in something so much there is no way that they will ever belive its not what it is.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

"Mike"? Are you on a first name basis with the author? Do you know him?

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

What would you call him Michael or Mr. I was interveiwed by him just like many of the other people at the nathional. Other than that I have no other dealings with him. I call Bill Mastro Bill not Willaim and I dont know him. What is your point.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Just curious if you had any special insight into the book, that's all, I didn't mean to put you on the defensive.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Bill Hughes was only one of four people who, as I understand, were involved in originally "grading" the Wagner. If he gave his approval to assign a grade of NM-MT 8 for a card he knew was trimmed or was able to determine so based on his expertise, then his willingness now to admit this in such a matter of fact manner really needs to be called into question. Unless his admission is now one of expressing regret or remorse and not just flippantly passing along information for the author, how are we to know if he is telling the truth now when he was willing to be so dishonest to begin with?

If Shelly knows Bill Hughes so well then he would also know who Bill Hughes' partner was for many years during the 1990's. I knew Bill Hughes many years ago and liked him very much however I am not sure he qualifies for a merit badge in this hobby.

I am not making a determination either way on whether the card is trimmed. Only that Bill Hughes now saying so means absolutely nothing. It carries the same weight as the denial of it being trimmed which was made the person who sold it, Bill Mastro.

Greg

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

So the theory is that PSA knowingly launched its business, which was marketed as a counterweight to the then-prevalent fraud being perpetrated by many dealers, by grading a trimmed version of the hobby's Holy Grail. That sure seems a very high risk strategy. Assuming the card was trimmed, and everyone involved in the grading knew it, then how was David Hall to know that conclusive or at least persuasive proof of that fact would not come out? On the other hand, maybe Mr. Hall just rolled the dice as he may not have had a huge capital investment anyhow, just a license fee to Mr. Hager and a slabbing machine.

What continues to surprise me is that NONE of the people who supposedly have the infamous "before" photo will break ranks and show it. What would Mr. Mastro's claim against them be, even if he were inclined to make one? Suppose I had the photo and started a thread with a post, "here is a picture Alan Ray sent to me that allegedly shows the Wagner in the condition it was in when he sold it." What am I liable for?

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Posted By: MikeU

"So we are supposed to take the word of a guy who essentially says he fraudulently graded the card? Oh, OK, sure, why not? But the word of Bill Mastro means nothing? Has Rob Lifson put his reputation on the line to say the card was trimmed? Not to my knowledge. Kind of a risky business plan for PSA, knowingly slabbing a trimmed card to launch their business, don't you think? OH and let me add Michael Wentz's recent statement at least as I understood him to the effect that the supposed "before" photo adds nothing to the case."

If you dismiss so easily the words of Hughes, Heitman, Leland and McNall, how can you gravitate with certainly towards Mike Wentz's word? Mike's supporting comments of the PSA 8 Wagner can not be trusted, since he is an SGC supporter.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

MikeU, my only point is that there are folks on both sides of this and reasons can be found to view each and every one of them with some guarded skepticism. This is going to be settled, if at all, by proof, not hearsay or self-serving statements or innuendo or speculation.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter makes a good point: a lot of people who have seen the card and are supposedly in the "know" claim it's trimmed - yet why doesn't anyone show the before photo? Wouldn't that settle this? What is the downside to them?

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Jeff, hell if I know. I cannot imagine it would be the basis for any viable lawsuit unless it were accompanied by direct accusations, and even then, where is the damage? It's a frickin' picture of a baseball card, it's not like publishing a secret nude photo of somebody.

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Posted By: dennis

imo a photo would probably prove nothing,now a b4 and after scan.or a video of the actual trimming,that would be better.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

His partner was Mervin Lee. Like I have said before the only way to make sure is if they have the card graded again by someone other than Psa. If Mastro thinks that everyone is lying about this card .. He should have no problem in trying to convince the new owner to do just that. It sure would make all those people who have said the card was trimmed look bad. I also believe it would send the price of that card further through the roof. Of course if it is true I think it would be very costly to the new owner.Until that happens I guess there will be those that say yes and those that say no.
As to the picture. Peter you answered your own question. You have stated that the picture allegedly is that of the Wagner. You would then have six hundred more messages say how do we know that is the card. Its not clear enough, its been doctored when was it taken a etc. I will tell you again that I believe the people that graded and bought that card. You can believe who you want. Oh he also had a partner whose last name was Applebaum. They ran a card shop in Lido Island. I hope that cover his partners beside Heitman who was in the litho business with him. Is that correct bottom of the ninth.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Shelly, do you actually think that the owner of the card would take a chance to have SGC say it's trimmed - knowing that SGC would just love to say that and hurt PSA? The upside would be that the card would go for twenty cents more in an auction next week. The downside is that they owner loses 7 figures. Sounds like a plan!

And furthermore: if I owned the card, why would I give a damn if a bunch of yentas said that it was trimmed? People have been saying this for years and it hasn't impacted the value of the card.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Another way would be to buy it and then attempt to consign it to REA. Since Rob won't accept altered items, if he refuses to sell it, you would have your answer.

Shelly, to answer your point it is difficult for me to know who to believe. I would like to hear more from/about Mr. Heitman about the basis for his opinion. It is interesting that no one has commented yet about the reasons Mr. Hughes gave you for his opinion relating to the size of the card, I don't profess to be an expert but I would think there are plenty of folks on this board who could comment about the size of Piedmonts vs. Sweet Caps. I was only aware that American Beauty backs tend to be skinny.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Jeff I agree with you 100%. I was saying that this is only way anyone can settel this arguement and that its never going to happen. In regards to the size of the card Heitman would have to come on here and explain.

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Posted By: MikeU

"And furthermore: if I owned the card, why would I give a damn if a bunch of yentas said that it was trimmed? People have been saying this for years and it hasn't impacted the value of the card."

The truth regarding the trim will probably never effect the card value a great deal. However, I think that there are a few individuals that the truth would effect their credibility with a very select group of people. The fact that the card value will not go down after the truth is public, will be the silver bullet that is used when ones credibility is questioned e.g. no harm was really ever done.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike, true - but the truth will only hurt the owner of the card which is why he's not even thinking of these issues.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I asked this question on another link a recived no answere. Is it possible to grade a card that is slabed. I am only looking at the borders and size. Is this possible.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I answered it on the other thread.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Thanks

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Posted By: Larry

The new owner of this card is probably saavy enough that he will be protected no matter what. PSA will have to guarantee the card and the dollars, and this "deal" was orchestrated & completed with PSA's assistance. Mr. Orlando in particular probably knows the specifics. There is NO doubt, the new owner completed his top 200 card collection as a result of this acquisition, whether trimmed or not, the value is in the history of the card, and PSA's warranty is most definately in play for this scenario.

The new owner will do well and is very smart not to reveal his identity, it adds to the mystique.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

The new owner might well be reading these posts laughing his ass off.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Jeff if you where the new owner would you be laughing you ass off.
If I bought a great piece of art and now someone is telling me it might not be what be what it was stated to be. I dont think for two and a half million dollars I would be laughing. I really don't think that owner of this card is so happy at this moment. I might be wrong but i belive in the next few months you might find out that the s--t might hit the fan.

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Posted By: leon

My understanding is that SCP is minority owner in the card now. They are a banner advertiser on this board as having an association with Sothebys.....Next time the card sells it will sell for more than it did this time. If the prevailing idea that it was handcut from a sheet is true the value of the card shouldn't take a hit, imo.....but who knows??

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Posted By: dennis

the new owner is a collector. he has heard all this stuff before,this talk is nothing new. someone who pays this kind of money is no fool. when and if he sells this card he will make his money back and a lot more.