Connie Mack

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Posted By: CN

I found him to be one of the most fascinating characters to ever be involved in baseball. I am just wondering that outside his longevity in the sport how he should be rated as a manager. I understand 50 years will never be approached but taking that away how does he rate with the all time great managers? CN

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I think he rates pretty well, if there's validity to the rating system.


Some time ago I thought about trying to chart out a big family tree, showing managers and who they played for... An example would be Wes Westrum, a great baseball man, he managed the Mets. Wes played for Durocher with the Giants. Durocher played for Frisch with the Cardinals. And Frisch played for McGraw.

My idea is that most of the successful managers can be traced back to John McGraw and Connie Mack. One day I'll take time to chart that madness out. One day.

So I think Mr. Mack is right up there. His record would be better than it is if he'd not sold off stars periodically to generate cash. At times winning was not his only goal.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

The fact that he twice broke up superior Philadelphia Athletic teams, due allegedly, to his cheapness, sours the man for me. Was more interested in dollars than wins.

http://www.answers.com/topic/connie-mack

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Posted By: Max Weder

Frank

http://www.baseballreference.com has a tool to make these searches easier, although I'm not sure you can do it for managers. It's the Oracle of Baseball at http://www.baseball-reference.com/oracle/

Max

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

Mack is rather hard to evaluate -- he's the all-time leader in wins, loses and games (unlikely any of these will every be broken, even though the seasons were shorter in his day). He had a losing record all-time. If longevity is the measure of greatness its hard not to place him near the top. Of course by the end he was also the owner and the GM so his job security was not exactly as precarious as Joe Torre's.

Bill James has a book on Manager that attempts to rank them and also performs the sort of "geneology" you attempted. I forget exactly where Mack wound up but he wasn't first or second.

Mack himself felt McGraw was the greatest ever. Joe McCarthy is also a common selection as greatest ever. Despite his longevity the Hanlon-->McGraw school is often considered the dominant family of great managers.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I may not have my facts straight here, but I thought that the reason that Mack broke up the original A's was (yes money) that the Federal League was going to steal his players if he didn't sell them. This team was his creation, and it was a dominant powerhouse. In the six years prior to the FL, the A's finished once third in their league, once second, and won four pennants.

It took him a long time to recover from that player loss. But when he did, his new creation totally derailed the Yankee powerhouse of the late '20s by the A's winning in 1929, 30 & 31. This is no small accomplishment, and it was the last real resistance which the Yankees faced for decades.

Most managers can not ever put a team like either of Mack's A's together. McGraw did in the early 20s.

Comiskey was cheap. I think that the Philadelphia operation was just not very profitable, and Connie Mack could not always afford the talent he could assemble.

I think that the Mack story is simply one of cash flow. Well that and how he assembled these teams.

I think the McGraw story is one of skillful networking, an acute sense of talent and needs, and after winning his fourth consecutive pennant, dishonest baseball dealings to benefit his own pocket.

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Here's a Rookie Card of the Managing Great!!!

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

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Posted By: Ken W.

My Mack.

Had to delete old image.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Connie Mack, on his preference for a team that gets off to hot start, but ultimately finishes fourth:

"A team like that will draw well enough during the first part of the season to show a profit for the year, and you don't have to give the players raises when they don't win."

Can you imagine McGraw, McCarthy, Durocher, et al, making that statement? Hardly a philosophy reflecting the competitive spirit one would want in a manager.

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Posted By: leon

With his "time in" over so many years it seems like there are lot of Mack cards....some very cool ones too ...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

1936 Spring Training


1910 World Series -he's the guy in the funny hat.


c1950

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Posted By: boxingcardman

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Beautiful stuff, guys. I love that 1910 photo with Collins in the foreground. After reading "The Joy of Keeping Score", when the original cover had Mr. Mack with a scorecard in hand, I started searching for one of those pastels with Mr. Mack and Lefty, finally found one. Somewhere I have an E96 of Mr. Mack... I'll find mine and scan him if someone else doesn't put one up in a few days.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Hi Ken,

I don’t want to come off as a killjoy but I feel as if your Fan Craze Mack is a reprint. The image of Mack, himself, and the surrounding shaded area appears way too dark. It is my opinion that real Fan Crazes are more eloquently shaded. This results in the image of the ball player and surrounding areas being much lighter. Also, more detail will be able to be made out of the player’s face in a real Fan Craze.

The card appears as if it could be a Fritch reprint. He issued a series of these with very similar traits (very dark shading on both the player and oval he is in resulting in little detail on the player’s face).

There is currently an SGC graded example of this card on eBay. The eBay Mack clearly shows the light and very well done shading that is exhibited in both Fan Craze sets.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

Just to be clear the Mack as manager ratings are rather difficult (as that quotation above shows) since he was for many years the teams owner-operator. The other great managers discussed above (including McGraw!) did not have the same stake Mack did in his team (especially by the end).
Also, besides McGraw and the other earlier managers Mack was also the GM. This means that he can be held accountable for putting together his second dynasty -- he paid big $$ for Lajoie and Lefty Grove but cheaped out on Walter Johnson -- in a way Stengel, McCarthy and managers today cannot. They played with the hand that was dealt them for the most part although they often were involved in trades. Today with GMs and free agency -- even the most powerful managers have far less authority that almost of all of the managers of the early 20th century.

As to the Reprint issue, I tend to agree with Zach.... These scans might help but the real giveaway should be on the back. Fritsch's (?) Reprints say so in the lower left hand corner in white and the blue backs are much darker.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Ken, I think Zach and Brian are correct.

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Posted By: Paul S

Mack is seen here scolding his catcher for threatening to jump to the Mexican League.

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Posted By: Ken W.

Zach, Brian, and Frank,

Thanks for the sobering news. Needless to say, that sucks! Upon further examination, my card has obviously been seriously trimmed at the bottom, so as to remove the "reprint" line. Paid $155 to someone called kazzie55 on ebay. They had a feedback score of - are you ready for this? - 13. You read right, THIRTEEN!!! This was back in Jan. 2006 and I thought I had sort of figured things out a little better by then. This was my only Fan Craze, so I had nothing to compare it to. Sure love to replace it with the real thing. I absolutely HATE reprint sets! They just beg to be pawned off to unsuspecting morons like ...

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Posted By: Anonymous

If I don't have a chance to study the attributes of a set before I decide to buy a card from it, I generally will not buy an item from a set I don't know for the first time unless it is slabbed by one of the majors. They will usually at least get authenticity right. From there I might branch out into unslabbed, carefully.

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Posted By: Misunderestimated (Brian H.)

I think this was before one of the first all-star games. I believe Mack and McGraw were named the Managers although the Little Napoleon had turned the Giants over to Bill Terry already(?)

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Yep, that photo was taken at the first all star game in 1933. They were choosing up home/away team.

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Posted By: S Gross

1940's cab driver: "Hey, buddy, how 'bout a tip?"
Mack: "Never bet on the A's."