1943 M&P Co. Backs

[danmckee]

I have 3 different backs for several players in this issue. Has anyone researched this and has a checklist for all possible variations?

Thanks
Dan Mckee

r337man@yahoo.com

[swarmee]

http://www.oldcardboard.com/r/r302/r...?cardsetID=857

[danmckee]

That doesn't help me at all. I am very familiar with Old cardboard as I have overly contributed to that site.

I need more in depth info on different back variations from the 1943 issue which old cardboard is obviously clueless about.

At least until I educate them about it.

[RedsFan1941]

ted z. has posted about this set. i bet he can help you.

[Harford20]

Dan,
I cannot give you any information regarding the set, but for a player, Ted Williams, there are 3 known back variations (possibly 4) of the 1943 M.P. & Co Ted Williams with ink color variations and spelling errors. All backs are in the same format, just errors or ink color changes that create the variations.

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Black Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Black Ink ? Exists


There also is a VERY COMMON error that is noted with Ted Williams in that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation", (meaning no #101 printed on the back of the card) that all the TPGs continue to call a 1943 M.P. & Co. This is NOT a 1943 printing, but a 1949 printing. The 1943 M.P & Co Ted has the company tag line at the bottom and the 1949 does not (at least for Ted Williams), but the TPG companies refuse to accept that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation" as it is not listed in any guide. If you have the cards side by side, this variation can clearly be seen as a 1949 card.

Of note, there are also 2 spelling variations of the 1949 M.P. & Co for Ted Williams.

101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCES", #101
101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEORORE FRANCES", #101
(101)-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCIS", No number

Sorry, can't help out on any other players though.

Dave

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Harford20

Dan,
I cannot give you any information regarding the set, but for a player, Ted Williams, there are 3 known back variations (possibly 4) of the 1943 M.P. & Co Ted Williams with ink color variations and spelling errors. All backs are in the same format, just errors or ink color changes that create the variations.

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Black Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Black Ink ? Exists


There also is a VERY COMMON error that is noted with Ted Williams in that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation", (meaning no #101 printed on the back of the card) that all the TPGs continue to call a 1943 M.P. & Co. This is NOT a 1943 printing, but a 1949 printing. The 1943 M.P & Co Ted has the company tag line at the bottom and the 1949 does not (at least for Ted Williams), but the TPG companies refuse to accept that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation" as it is not listed in any guide. If you have the cards side by side, this variation can clearly be seen as a 1949 card.

Of note, there are also 2 spelling variations of the 1949 M.P. & Co for Ted Williams.

101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCES", #101
101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEORORE FRANCES", #101
(101)-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCIS", No number

Sorry, can't help out on any other players though.

Dave

That's KILLER info there Dave! Tthanks exactly what I was hoping for!

I am setting up at the Philly show with Ole Ted so now we have something to talk about

Thank you kindly!

Dan Mckee

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Harford20

Dan,
I cannot give you any information regarding the set, but for a player, Ted Williams, there are 3 known back variations (possibly 4) of the 1943 M.P. & Co Ted Williams with ink color variations and spelling errors. All backs are in the same format, just errors or ink color changes that create the variations.

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Black Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Black Ink ? Exists


There also is a VERY COMMON error that is noted with Ted Williams in that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation", (meaning no #101 printed on the back of the card) that all the TPGs continue to call a 1943 M.P. & Co. This is NOT a 1943 printing, but a 1949 printing. The 1943 M.P & Co Ted has the company tag line at the bottom and the 1949 does not (at least for Ted Williams), but the TPG companies refuse to accept that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation" as it is not listed in any guide. If you have the cards side by side, this variation can clearly be seen as a 1949 card.

Of note, there are also 2 spelling variations of the 1949 M.P. & Co for Ted Williams.

101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCES", #101
101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEORORE FRANCES", #101
(101)-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCIS", No number

Sorry, can't help out on any other players though.

Dave

Oh and on a friendly note.... I could care less what 3rd party grading recognizes or doesn't as I have been collecting 48 years and all of my sets are raw... I have forgotten more than those idiots will ever know!

[Leon]

Great info. Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Harford20

Dan,
I cannot give you any information regarding the set, but for a player, Ted Williams, there are 3 known back variations (possibly 4) of the 1943 M.P. & Co Ted Williams with ink color variations and spelling errors. All backs are in the same format, just errors or ink color changes that create the variations.

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Black Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Blue Ink
1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Black Ink ? Exists


There also is a VERY COMMON error that is noted with Ted Williams in that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation", (meaning no #101 printed on the back of the card) that all the TPGs continue to call a 1943 M.P. & Co. This is NOT a 1943 printing, but a 1949 printing. The 1943 M.P & Co Ted has the company tag line at the bottom and the 1949 does not (at least for Ted Williams), but the TPG companies refuse to accept that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation" as it is not listed in any guide. If you have the cards side by side, this variation can clearly be seen as a 1949 card.

Of note, there are also 2 spelling variations of the 1949 M.P. & Co for Ted Williams.

101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCES", #101
101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEORORE FRANCES", #101
(101)-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCIS", No number

Sorry, can't help out on any other players though.

Dave

[Estwd]

Originally Posted by Harford20

Dan,

I cannot give you any information regarding the set, but for a player, Ted Williams, there are 3 known back variations (possibly 4) of the 1943 M.P. & Co Ted Williams with ink color variations and spelling errors. All backs are in the same format, just errors or ink color changes that create the variations.



1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Blue Ink

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEODORE", Black Ink

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Blue Ink

1-M.P. & Co. Hand Cut--"THEORDORE", Black Ink ? Exists





There also is a VERY COMMON error that is noted with Ted Williams in that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation", (meaning no #101 printed on the back of the card) that all the TPGs continue to call a 1943 M.P. & Co. This is NOT a 1943 printing, but a 1949 printing. The 1943 M.P & Co Ted has the company tag line at the bottom and the 1949 does not (at least for Ted Williams), but the TPG companies refuse to accept that there is a 1949 M.P. & Co "no number variation" as it is not listed in any guide. If you have the cards side by side, this variation can clearly be seen as a 1949 card.



Of note, there are also 2 spelling variations of the 1949 M.P. & Co for Ted Williams.



101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCES", #101

101-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEORORE FRANCES", #101

(101)-2 M.P.& CO. HAND CUT--"THEODORE FRANCIS", No number



Sorry, can't help out on any other players though.



Dave

So is this then a '49?

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[GeoPoto]

Do my two 43 Reisers "face" in opposite directions?

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[nineunder71]

George,
Yes they are opposite, the one read from the left is a 1944

If it helps, all of your 1949’s fronts are also read from the left

[nineunder71]

Also, your Kozar is from an early 1949 print run, as it has an error on the back that I have found corrected in later runs.

This set is more fun than most know!

[nineunder71]

In regards to why I believe the new set was printed in 1944 here is some more information.

First, it is very clear that the 1943 set was printed after the 1942 season ended, as a few cards mention the champions from 1942, but also before the 1943 season begins as the 1943 Novikoff card reads on the back that 1943 should be a good year for Lou. So our timeline for when this set was printed is pretty clear.

Back to the 1944 set, No way it was printed after 1949 because Multiple of the players from this set didn’t play that long in their career, they were retired long before 1949, many of them. Remember, the 1949 set is comprised of 18 different players than both the 1943 and 1944 sets. The 24 players comprising the 1943 and 1944 sets were from a bit of an earlier generation, check out the 24 players we’re dealing with here again.

Moving on, 2 different cards in the 1944 set read, on the back, that the player is gone to war (this gives us our first time reference) the Henrich (8 line version) and the Greenberg. So, the set was printed when both these guys were gone to war. Okay, we know Greenberg served 47 months, most of any Major Leaguer. He returned to MLB July 1, 1945 for good from the war, and played the rest of the 1945 season.

Here is where I start to narrow down the timeline for when this set was printed. With Greenberg and Henrich back from the war and both resuming their MLB careers by 1945, we can rule out the set being printed in 1946 or after.

Now, how do we know this set wasn’t just a variation print run of the 1943 set?
I know because of the specific dialogue changes made from the 1943 version to the 1944 version. Many of the card’s dialogue changes appear irrelevant and/or that they were made simply to shorten the verbiage (save ink), brief omissions per say. Some appear to just remove bad grammar, good call to remove that William Cooper “catched” for the Cardinals, haha.

But, one card really stands out. The Camilli card’s changes specifically stand out to me. While most of the changes made from set to set were simple omissions of say 2 or 3 lines printed at the top or the bottom of the dialogue, the Camilli card specifically removes that he now plays for the Dodgers at the top, then later on in the dialogue it is changed from “has been with Brooklyn since 1938”, to saying “has been with Brooklyn” (As in, past tense) This is significant because he was traded in 1943. I believe this quasi-cover up shows that this set was printed after 1943, because the printer knew Camilli had been traded and was trying to correct the card to read more accurate.

The Vander Meer cards are similar in that the 1943 reads he is “with the Reds today”, then on the 1944 card this statement is gone. Again significant because he went into the Navy in early 1944 and missed the entire season.

[tedzan]

Hi Colton

Thanks for clarifying the date, the Vander Meer card on this strip reads....“with the Reds today”. I acquired this strip back in 1981.



v................................................. .... original uncut 8-card strip (21 1/2 inches long) .................................................. ....v





Enlarged strip (split scan)







I think the other two 8-card strips were printed as such.....am I correct ?

Strip B........

MIZE - REISER - HACK - NOVIKOFF - CAMILLI - RUFFING - HUBBELL - GREENBERG


Strip C........

BOUDREAU - M. COOPER - WILLIAMS - DICKEY - FOXX - FELLER - OTT - W. COOPER



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[todeen]

Discussion of this set is on Twitter. @Collector_Logan is asking about paper stock and why different stock was used. Any information is appreciated. I am assuming from previous posts that these cards are suspected 1944 versions dince they are misding the company name in the bottom left corner?

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[nineunder71]

I will have to look back through my info and stats, however the light colored paper stock is much more difficult per my memory

Originally Posted by todeen

Discussion of this set is on Twitter. @Collector_Logan is asking about paper stock and why different stock was used. Any information is appreciated. I am assuming from previous posts that these cards are suspected 1944 versions dince they are misding the company name in the bottom left corner?

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[todeen]

There is another R302 thread, as linked, with a Joe Dimaggio "white" back that appears to be the 1949 set.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

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