Best Season ever by a ML pitcher?

[rats60]

Walter Johnson in 1913. 36-7 1.14 ERA 11 shutouts ERA+ 259 WHIP .78.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

Walter Johnson in 1913. 36-7 1.14 ERA 11 shutouts ERA+ 259 WHIP .78.

How does that mind-boggling season compare with Gibson's 1.12 or the season Pedro was something like 2 runs better than the next guy in ERA?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How does that mind-boggling season compare with Gibson's 1.12 or the season Pedro was something like 2 runs better than the next guy in ERA?

Gibson was 22-9 with 13 shutouts and .853 WHIP. Pedro only started 29 games and pitched less than 220 innings. Johnson pitched 346 innings and won 7 more games than Pedro pitched. Pedro isn't in the discussion with guys that pitched 50%+ more innings.

[jad22]

The average starting pitcher in 68 had a sub 3.00 ERA, and the mound was lowered the next year and pitchers hit. I think I would take Pedro.

[drumback]

The assertion that half the hitters of the deadball era hit .300 is not correct. For example, during the great Ed Walsh season of 1908, there were only three .300 hitters in the American League - Cobb, Crawford and Gessler. People see the great batting averages of players like Cobb and Wagner, and assume there were lots of players in their day who had high averages. Not true. It is a testament to their greatness that they outhit the league average by a wide margin season after season. Some of the lowest league averages in baseball history occurred during the deadball era. Hard as this may be to believe, we tend to underestimate the greatness of Cobb and Wagner, and Speaker and Lajoie as well.

[KMayUSA6060]

Originally Posted by drumback

The assertion that half the hitters of the deadball era hit .300 is not correct. For example, during the great Ed Walsh season of 1908, there were only three .300 hitters in the American League - Cobb, Crawford and Gessler. People see the great batting averages of players like Cobb and Wagner, and assume there were lots of players in their day who had high averages. Not true. It is a testament to their greatness that they outhit the league average by a wide margin season after season. Some of the lowest league averages in baseball history occurred during the deadball era. Hard as this may be to believe, we tend to underestimate the greatness of Cobb and Wagner, and Speaker and Lajoie as well.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

Gibson was 22-9 with 13 shutouts and .853 WHIP. Pedro only started 29 games and pitched less than 220 innings. Johnson pitched 346 innings and won 7 more games than Pedro pitched. Pedro isn't in the discussion with guys that pitched 50%+ more innings.

I believe Gibson had a stretch in 1968 whete he gave up only 2 earned runs in 98 innings. That’s absolutely unfathomable!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

I believe Gibson had a stretch in 1968 whete he gave up only 2 earned runs in 98 innings. That’s absolutely unfathomable!!!!

And knowing how Gibson was, he was probably pissed off that he allowed those.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

I believe Gibson had a stretch in 1968 whete he gave up only 2 earned runs in 98 innings. That’s absolutely unfathomable!!!!

Those 2 runs were scored on a wild pitch that was catchable and a bloop double. In addition to 13 shutouts, Gibson pitched 11 games where he allowed only 1 run including 2 where the run was unearned.

For the live ball era, I would take Koufax's 1965 season when you factor in his World Series MVP performance.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Big Unit's 372 K season.

[earlywynnfan]

How has nobody brought up Lefty Grove in 1931?? The absolute height of the hitters' era, he goes 31-4!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by rats60

Those 2 runs were scored on a wild pitch that was catchable and a bloop double. In addition to 13 shutouts, Gibson pitched 11 games where he allowed only 1 run including 2 where the run was unearned.

For the live ball era, I would take Koufax's 1965 season when you factor in his World Series MVP performance.

Here is my issue with Post-1990 great starting pitchers. They seldom finished what they started. Not to say that’s their fault because the game has changed to a relief pitcher fest. Consider as great as Pedro’s 1999 & 2000 seasons were, he only completed 12 games out of 58 starts, or a meager 21% of his games. Make no mistake about it, the TOUGHEST outs in baseball are the final 3-6 outs, and starting pitchers simply don’t have to get them anymore. Those are the outs that cause the most stress on the arm (in any tight ball game), and at this juncture, starters can simply gas up for 6/7 innings and give the ball up to the next guy. In 1968, Gibson completed 28 of his 34 starts and as you stated, gave up 1 or 0 runs in 24 of those 34 starts. You can adjust Pedro’s stats all you want with sabermettics, but even sabermetrics doesn’t measure the superiority of a pitcher that gets all 27 outs. That’s a MAJOR piece of analysis that Bill Jsmes has left on the table. Personally, due to his fragile size, I simply don’t think Pedro could have handled the innings workload of a Gibson, Seaver, Carlton, etc. just my two cents.

With that in mind and as a quick analogy, look how critical a great relief pitcher has been weighted over the past 30+ years. If a legendary pitcher such as Mariano Rivera was so valuable to a team’s success (which he was), then imagine how great pre-1980 HOF pitchers truly were because in reality and by today’s standards, they were literally “saving their own wins”! There is NO substitute for the value of a starting pitcher who completes what he starts which is why comparing starters from the past 30+ years versus their pre-1990 (give or take) peers is becoming a near-imposdible comparison.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The game has changed. Judgments have been made that for the most part a team is better off using the bullpen even when the starter is going strong. It's not the pitchers' fault or a case of they don't make em like they used to. If the great pitchers of today had lived earlier, they would have been pitching complete games. Maybe someone like Pedro who was unusually small for a flamethrower is an exception, but in general there is no reason at all to suppose pitchers in general were better back then.

[Vintageclout]

Piggybacking off of my last post, Pedro Martinez pitched 18 years and averaged only 157+ innings pitched per season. During his sensational 5-year stretch he had one 241 inning season (his most ever), one 230 inning year and 3 seasons with less than 220 innings. Minimal workload for sure for a team’s ace in the A.L. where there is no pinch hitting for a pitcher. Once again, Pedro was a truly spectacular pitcher but I’ll take the “other” spectacular pitcher who either gets me thru 8 innings or completes what he starts. A MAJOR difference between the two.

[profholt82]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Piggybacking off of my last post, Pedro Martinez pitched 18 years and averaged only 157+ innings pitched per season. During his sensational 5-year stretch he had one 241 inning season (his most ever), one 230 inning year and 3 seasons with less than 220 innings. Minimal workload for sure for a team’s ace in the A.L. where there is no pinch hitting for a pitcher. Once again, Pedro was a truly spectacular pitcher but I’ll take the “other” spectacular pitcher who either gets me thru 8 innings or completes what he starts. A MAJOR difference between the two.

True, but Pedro threw an insane amount of strikeouts in those innings. More per 9 innings on average than Bob Gibson or Greg Maddux ever did.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by profholt82

True, but Pedro threw an insane amount of strikeouts in those innings. More per 9 innings on average than Bob Gibson or Greg Maddux ever did.

Maddux was never a strikeout pitcher so that’s a given. True about Pedro’s K’s; definitely a sensational ratio. However, my point is when a pitcher is “coddled” like many of the Post-1990 starters, it allows them to unload their best stuff for roughly 7 innings. ZERO concern over pacing themselves for the 9 inning journey. If anyone thinks that is not a HUGE advantage for the Post-1980 pitcher, they are fooling themselves. For example: Watching the Met-Yankee game last tonight, I noticed deGrom finally pitched into the 8th inning. And what happened? Gardner unloaded a 2-rum HR To beat him. Point being deGrom literally NEVER goes past the 7th inning. Welcome Jacob to the world of the pre-1980’s pitcher!

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Pedro was a truly spectacular pitcher but I’ll take the “other” spectacular pitcher who either gets me thru 8 innings or completes what he starts. A MAJOR difference between the two.

I don't understand penalizing a guy because he dominated in 1997, not 1907. Dominant is dominant, no matter the era.

Do you really think any of the elite pitchers of the past 20 or 30 years couldn't "complete what he starts" if they pitched in the early 1900s? The players back then did it because that was how managers managed.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I don't understand penalizing a guy because he dominated in 1997, not 1907. Dominant is dominant, no matter the era.

Do you really think any of the elite pitchers of the past 20 or 30 years couldn't "complete what he starts" if they pitched in the early 1900s? The players back then did it because that was how managers managed.

What I’m saying is as great as Seaver, Gibson, Koufax, Palmer, Marichal (just to mention a few great 60s/70s pitchers) were, imagine if their mentality was “I can go into overdrive for the first 7 innings because I don’t need to get the final 3-6 outs”. True, it’s not Pedro’s fault he was pulled either due to a pitch count or closer. BUT, if you honestly think Pedro could have threw 95-97mph CONSIDTENTLY for 250+ innings per season over a 7-10 year period with his fragile frame you are greatly fooling yoursel. There was a reason the Red Sox carefully monitored his workload/innings. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rats60

Walter Johnson in 1913. 36-7 1.14 ERA 11 shutouts ERA+ 259 WHIP .78.

+1. Best season ever. My second choice would be Maddux in 1995 or Gooden in 1985.

[kcohen]

Ron Guidry 1978 in the discussion