Lee Smith & Harold Baines??

[ejharrington]

Jack Morris, Harold Baines, Lee Smith, and Trevor Hoffman are in.

That means that Keith Hernandez, Curt Schilling, and Rusty Staub, three of my all-time favorites, need to be in.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!

Reports are that Baines was "surprised" he got elected. I don't view him as a Hall of Famer but he didn't campaign (like Gossage and Santo) and certainly didn't want this negative attention. From all reports, Baines is a quiet and good man. I think he was an outstanding ballplayer, just not Hall of Fame worthy.

[sgbernard]

I'm surprised Jerry Reinsdorf didn't vote himself in.

[packs]

I can't believe we live in a world where Harold Baines and Lee Smith can get into the HOF but Gil Hodges and Mike Mussina can't.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

There was never a time when I thought, Harold Baines defined his generation.

I missed where the rules say you have to “define your generation” to be a Hall of Famer. It’s not just the Hall of Household Names.

You have the Ruths, Aarons, and Seavers in the HOF and then you also have the Pie Traynors, Rabbit Maranvilles, and Rube Marquards. It’s made up of all of them. It’s been this way almost literally since the beginning.



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[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I hate the negativity toward these players I've been seeing. It's not like they asked to be elected. Now everyone is crapping on them...

Amen. Very good point.


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[darwinbulldog]

Seems like everybody who really deserves it gets in eventually. (By my reckoning, the 7 best players not yet in the Hall of Fame have all played in the current century.) In order for that to be true the system has to be loose enough that some questionable choices slide in too. I wouldn't have voted for Baines or Smith, but I understand why the people who are allowed to vote don't include me.

[clydepepper]

The following article helps put this into focus:


http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...ines-lee-smith

[MCyganik]

While I definitely question Baines being in the HOF, there have been some good points to attempt to justify his inclusion including underrepresentation of his era and his longevity stats.

It is sad that some other great guys (Allen, Minoso, Hodges etc) are still shut out but I do enjoy the fringe guys getting in. It shows that the HOF is imperfect and human and always will be. Anyone who dumps on Baines right now and calls his selection the reason the HOF is "watered down" but goes out and spends $$$ on cards/autos of guys like Marquard, Bresnahan, Jennings, Maranville, Kelly, Traynor, Schalk, Ferrell, Hafey, Haines, Combs, Bottomley, Lindstrom, Travis Jackson et al because they are "vintage Hall Of Famers" needs a comparative history lesson of how the HOF isn't some sacred place reserved for the upper echelon of players.

Congrats to Harold and Lee!

[timn1]

Well said, Glynn. I’m happy for Harold, one of the nicest guys in baseball.

Originally Posted by glynparson

Sorry missed where it says great in the name. Honestly the place is a museum to tell the games history. I have no problem with a guy with 2866 career hits getting in or a player who was considered at one time to be the games best closer. But then again I believe in a large hall and have no problem with relief pitchers. Good for both gentlemen and I hope they can enjoy the honor with out receiving too much hate from the peanut gallery.

[sycks22]

At least we don't have to question if Baines was a juicer. Similar to Lance Johnson the bat swung him.

[drcy]

My 2 cents-- or perhaps it worth 1-1/2 cents-- is, yes, Baines is not deserving, but Smith is a fair choice. Smith was the all time saves leader at one point, and was acknowledged during his playing days as one of the best relievers. His election certainly doesn't offend my senses.

I agree the HOF should be more exclusive. Perhaps not as exclusive as some would want, but more exclusive than it is. Wouldn't offend me if they retroactively took the rake and removed some outliers-- though I assume that would never happen.

The funny thing is the Pro Football HOF is much more exclusive. There are regular complaints that deserving and candidates are shut out by the numbers game. The people who do get selected each year are almost the genuine cream of the crop.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Cooperstown is replicating Canton. If a former FB player can tell the diff between a golf ball and a football, well, he's in at Canton! Case closed . . .

I played high school football and I can tell the difference between a golf ball and a football. My problem is that I can't always find my golf ball, but I have never lost a football.

CANTON here I come.

[bbcard1]

If relievers belong in the hall of fame, then I think Lee Smith is a fair choice. The irony is that the longevity for which we often (and perhaps fairly) leads to an indictment of the Baines/Sutton types as "compilers" is very elusive for closers. While you get an occassional Thigpen or Mark Davis, Smith had more than 30 saves eleven years in a row. You could argue the value of a save, but it's a fairly globally accepted measure of productivity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Metrics of course aren't everything, but sheesh Baines ranks as the 74th best right fielder of all time according to JAWS. He's so far down the list it isn't even funny. Exactly what did he do other than play a long time at a decent level that offsets the tale told by that metric?

I think guys like Allen, Belle, Oliva, Murphy, Garvey who were among the top few best players in the game for a stretch of 5-7 or so years are more worthy.

[packs]

I don't think anyone would say Lee Smith was better than Rollie Fingers or Dennis Eckersly, both of whom overlapped with his career. He was left out for a reason. Nothing has changed in the time between.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Closers only pitch one inning..usually only in the game half an inning..or only 3 outs worth

At least Baines got 4-5 at bats in a game.

I always felt closers besides elite elite like M. Rivera are guys that are one or 2 bad seasons away from being the 25th guy like Axford and the list goes on..

Being a DH is fine to be in the HOF as long as they let closers in ....any number 2 starting pitcher could of been a decent closer i believe..

[ramram]

The simple fact is that the Hall of Fame voters, or at least enough of them, had signed Harold Baines rookie cards in their collections.

Rob M

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think anyone would say Lee Smith was better than Rollie Fingers or Dennis Eckersly, both of whom overlapped with his career. He was left out for a reason. Nothing has changed in the time between.

Part of that reason was that he was unpopular with the sportswriters and did not have a dandy memorable thing like a handlebar Finger's handlebar mustache or Gossage's mutton chops or Hoffman's Hell's Bells.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know W-L isn't that meaningful for a reliever, but Smith was 71-92, that has to be the worst percentage of any HOF pitcher, no?

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

[CENTER]I played high school football and I can tell the difference between a golf ball and a football. My problem is that I can't always find my golf ball, but I have never lost a football.

So, with that qualification, can we expect your imminent enshrinement next summer in Canton? How's the speech coming? And, can I get a reduction on your pre-HOF auto?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Do not feed the troll!!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by gregr2

Gotta agree with the watering down comment. Doesn’t seem like either of these guys made that significant of a contribution and/or had a real HOF career. High level contributors but not HOF.


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If they are in the HOF, Roger Maris should be in the HOF......just saying.

[Tony Gordon]

From the perspective of a White Sox fan in Chicago, I absolutely love the choice of Harold Baines for the Hall. For a team that has been around since 1901, the White Sox have had a long history of lousy outfielders. Baines is actually one of the best outfielders in the history of the team -- we're talking over 100 years! I've had to suffer through the likes of Wayne Nordhagen and Dan Pasqua. The Sox have nothing for 2019. Baines election to the Hall is all Sox fans have to look forward to in 2019. Stop hating on Harold. There are a lot of folks in these parts that love the man.

[keithsky]

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

[packs]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by packs

Maybe you should take a look at his numbers, pal. I watched him play every day. The game was essentially over as soon as he entered it. Even more so in the post season. Inning per inning he is probably the greatest pitcher of all time. I can not think of a single name I'd rather hear coming into any game in any era on any planet other than Mariano Rivera.

+1 from a Red Sox fan

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Metrics of course aren't everything, but sheesh Baines ranks as the 74th best right fielder of all time according to JAWS. He's so far down the list it isn't even funny. Exactly what did he do other than play a long time at a decent level that offsets the tale told by that metric?

I think guys like Allen, Belle, Oliva, Murphy, Garvey who were among the top few best players in the game for a stretch of 5-7 or so years are more worthy.

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

[commishbob]

IMO Rivera is a no-brainer HoF inductee and this comes from a guy who is no fan of the Yankees. He was just ridiculously effective as a closer. When you are in the conversation re:the best ever at your position you have to be in the Hall.

I also this Lee Smith has a sold case. Baines, not so much. Not while Hodges, Allen, McGriff, & Mattingly are on the outside looking in.

Hall of Fame debates are always interesting to me. As long as they remain civil.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I am hoping this was tongue in cheek?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by riggs336

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

If Baines is in, the door is wide open IMO.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by keithsky

I just could never figure out the obsession with Mariano Rivera. The guys who's he's pitching to have played nine innings out in the 90 plus degree heat. He comes in for a half inning all refreshed from sitting around a whole game not in the heat pitching to guys who are tired playing a whole game and all of a sudden he's an elite pitcher. Give me a break.

I hate the Yankees, but really? Compare him to his contemporaries who were pitching in the same "easy" conditions you posit. Hoffman is the only one in his neighborhood, and he's on the outskirts.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by riggs336

Two names I haven't seen listed here really deserve consideration IMO:
Ken Boyer and Vada Pinson.

Good names, the list of guys like this is almost endless. Reggie Smith and Willie Davis actually stack up well (far superior to Baines) even by modern metrics. So does Boyer. Pinson is pretty comparable to Baines, as is a wide selection of guys like Al Oliver, Tommy Davis, and Cesar Cedeno

[BicycleSpokes]

Yes, these are two very unfortunate additions, in my humble opinion. Wow...

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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Good names, the list of guys like this is almost endless. Reggie Smith and Willie Davis actually stack up well (far superior to Baines) even by modern metrics. So does Boyer. Pinson is pretty comparable to Baines, as is a wide selection of guys like Al Oliver, Tommy Davis, and Cesar Cedeno

Dave Parker. Much more feared hitter than Harold Baines IMO.

[Tony2311]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Someone that averages .289, 22hr, 93 rbi's as a right fielder/dh and played in a single world series is not a hall of famer in my opinion.

+1 Tony

[Peter_Spaeth]

Just to be perverse, Yaz was 22-90-.285

[packs]

Compare that to Albert Belle:

40-130-295

Not a HOFer though, apparently.

[MK]

If Baines is HOF material, then next year they need to add another 300 or so new members as the bar has been lowered substantially. In fact, why not just put everyone in who has played at least one year in the bigs. That way we don’t overlook anyone. It’s so watered down anyway it’s lost all of its prestige.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I got this from SB Nation


Martinez won two batting titles, led the American League in on-base percentage thrice, doubles twice, and led once each in OPS, OPS+, runs scored and RBI. He was named a Silver Slugger as the best hitter at his position seven times.

Baines won a Silver Slugger once (1989), and led the AL in slugging percentage once (1984). That is the extent of the black ink on his Baseball-Reference page.

Baines was a compiler over a long period of time, which absolutely has value, to be productive over 22 years in the majors. His hit total is relatively high (2,866), good enough to rank 46th all-time. He has 619 more hits than Martinez, which is a lot.

But to put this in perspective, Baines reached base in his career by hit, walk, or hit by pitch 3,942 times, a big number. Martinez reached base 3,619 times, closing the hit gap quite a bit. While Baines did reach base 323 more times than Martinez, he did so in 2,418 more plate appearances. Martinez would have to go 1,513 plate appearances without reaching base to lower his OBP to Baines’ level; that’s nearly three full seasons’ worth.

For now at least, only one of those two is a Hall of Famer. Shocking, indeed.

[vintagewhitesox]

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

more hits than jeter????? not quite!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

So proud of Harold. Richly deserved.

I do find it funny how some people are shocked/outraged that he made it.
More hits than Jeter, more RBI than Schmidt, Mantle, Speaker, Hornsby, Dimaggio, Matthews, Rice.

Consistent hitter, quiet, just did his job. The anti-White Sox bias is strong still in the national media.

Cubs/Sox fan here, and never once did I think of him or Lee Smith as HOFers during their careers or when they ended. A HOFer is a no brainer, you don't need to think on it, they just are. Both were good players, but never great.

By your reasoning you'd have Frank Tanana and Jamie Moyer in over Sandy Koufax. Longevity doesn't mean you were great.

[vintagewhitesox]

Not OVER, but along with.
It's a museum, the more the merrier.

If RBI and HRs dont matter or are not good arguments, whats the point then?

Here's a video of Harold clinching the AL West in 1983. Winning Ugly indeed.

https://youtu.be/qp2XWfMOCLY

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Marchillo

Lots of these guys (I’m sure Baines is one) politic to be hall of famers. I personally don’t think these two are hall worthy but I get your point on crapping all over them. You have to be good enough to be considered and they both were. But I think it gets dicey when your former manager is on the committee and I’m sure friends etc.

Didn’t Rick Ferrell get in because someone asked people to vote for him so he wouldn’t get shut out and be embarrassed by getting no votes? That’s not how the hall of fame should work.

I collect hof signed baseballs (I grabbed these two last night lol) and all of their Topps Base Cards. Looks like I have some searching todo for some 80’s-90’s Baines/Smith cards!

I hope they have JSA certs with the signatures...

[brianp-beme]

In Harold Baines's case I believe the Hall of Fame was looking to concoct a rhyming trio of DH Harold Baines batting for pitcher Jesse Haines, with pinch runner Tim Raines ready on the bench.

Brian

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

In Harold Baines's case I believe the Hall of Fame was looking to concoct a rhyming trio of DH Harold Baines batting for pitcher Jesse Haines, with pinch runner Tim Raines ready on the bench.

Brian

Rex Harrison would like that.
Raines runs for Baines whenever we start Haines.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Rex Harrison would like that.
Raines runs for Baines whenever we start Haines.

Nice...that's music to the ears, my fair lady.

Brian (lady does not refer to Peter)

[riggs336]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That really isn't a good argument. Omar Vizquel had more hits than Gehrig. So what?
Sad Sam Jones and Jerry Reuss had more wins than Pedro.
Could do that sort of comparison forever.

The JAWS metric tries to give equal weight to career stats and peak period, and again, Baines is the 74th best RFer by that metric.

They can put his plaque next to Freddie Lindstrom whose JAWS rating
is 74th among third basemen.