Jeter SP Foil auction

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's rational.

Good packaging is worth a $40,000 premium

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So are you saying 100K for an autographed rookie would be rational?

It would be interesting to see what a psa 10 card and auto grade would sell for. I'm not sure it would be any more than the non auto.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Good packaging is worth a $40,000 premium

And one can only imagine if they overnighted it.

[steve B]

On the more reasonable side, there's this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Signat...QAAOSwwwRa7lcf

Population either 6 or 4. (Not sure what D.G. Grade only means)

if it's not a 10 it seems to have settled in the 150-200 range.

So a lot less common to begin with, on-card signature, and a smaller population in a 10. In fact, there are only 22 nines too so not all that common in ether grade. And only 144 in any grade..

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the more reasonable side, there's this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1994-Signat...QAAOSwwwRa7lcf

Population either 6 or 4. (Not sure what D.G. Grade only means)

if it's not a 10 it seems to have settled in the 150-200 range.

So a lot less common to begin with, on-card signature, and a smaller population in a 10. In fact, there are only 22 nines too so not all that common in ether grade. And only 144 in any grade..

while that card is very nice it is unlicensed and Yankees not being on card is big to people. Not really to me but I would love to own a Mantle or a Mays in a minor league uniform. Idk if this is just a air brushed Yankees uniform.

I don’t know about everywhere but, when this came out everyone was suspicious of the autos.

This is more like the 52 Topps Mantle. It’s the image and the set. It’s the fairy tale of the card. 1993 SP Derek Jeters fairly tales is that it was printed with so many defects and soft paper stock. If you look at it wrong it bends. And out of the millions printed we have 22 psa 10s.

1993 sp set was pushed as a” highend” product. With lesser print run because of how premium these cards stock was.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

while that card is very nice it is unlicensed and Yankees not being on card is big to people. Not really to me but I would love to own a Mantle or a Mays in a minor league uniform. Idk if this is just a air brushed Yankees uniform.

I don’t know about everywhere but, when this came out everyone was suspicious of the autos.

This is more like the 52 Topps Mantle. It’s the image and the set. It’s the fairy tale of the card. 1993 SP Derek Jeters fairly tales is that it was printed with so many defects and soft paper stock. If you look at it wrong it bends. And out of the millions printed we have 22 psa 10s.

1993 sp set was pushed as a” highend” product. With lesser print run because of how premium these cards stock was.

Signature rookies was as licensed as any other minor league set at the time.
I think the uniform shown is the minor league affiliate, but I could be wrong.

The SP would be airbrushed, since he didn't play for NY till 95.

I was around to buy both when they were new. Bought a bunch of SR, and some how kept getting that darn kid from the Yankees system. Ended up with three. Got about what they'd sell for now almost a decade ago. Maybe a bit more since they weren't graded.
I didn't buy much SP, they just didn't do much for me, especially the main part of the set. They didn't seem any touchier than any other UD product at the time. Sadly, no Jeter. The ones I have are still just fine, even the ones in the box without sleeves

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by steve B

Signature rookies was as licensed as any other minor league set at the time.
I think the uniform shown is the minor league affiliate, but I could be wrong.

The SP would be airbrushed, since he didn't play for NY till 95.

I was around to buy both when they were new. Bought a bunch of SR, and some how kept getting that darn kid from the Yankees system. Ended up with three. Got about what they'd sell for now almost a decade ago. Maybe a bit more since they weren't graded.
I didn't buy much SP, they just didn't do much for me, especially the main part of the set. They didn't seem any touchier than any other UD product at the time. Sadly, no Jeter. The ones I have are still just fine, even the ones in the box without sleeves

Yeah the 1993 didn’t feel much different. I think 1995 was a set that was also banged up. They had the hologram on one side. But the 93 foil was also like that. 1993 Bowman also has foil cards that were very easily damaged but no premium for that. I’m nit saying I agree with the Derek Jeter fairytale it just is. Like the 52 Mantle being more rare because of the Topps dump. But it was a double print to begin with.

[WillBBC]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I like Jeter. Think he played the game the right way. But the love fest that the modern fan has with the guy makes me scratch my head. And $100,000 for a non autographed rookie is the height of insanity. I don't care what the grade is.

He got 3,000 hits, so he should be in the Hall. But outside of hitting for average (.310 is good, I will give him that), tell me what Derek Jeter did that was exceptional?

I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Not saying I would pay $100k, but Jeters numbers are impressive, not to mention he played his entire career for one team and played only one position his entire career (he played more games at SS than Robin Yount and Ernie Banks added together).

And yet, in his prime, he was nowhere near the shortstop Yount or Banks were in theirs. Banks won two MVPs. Yount won two, also. One at shortstop, another in center field.

Originally Posted by BLongley

A five-time World Series champion, Jeter is regarded as a central figure of the Yankees' success of the late 1990s and early 2000s for his hitting, baserunning, fielding, and leadership.

LOL at mentioning Jeter's fielding as being part of the reason the Yankees were successful.

First of all, regarding his base running, he was decent on the bases. Let's not make him out to be Rickey Henderson as a base stealer, or Stan Musial with the doubles and triples, because he wasn't. Stealing 356 bases in two decades, and 4,717 times on base, isn't that great. That he leads the Yankees all-time shouldn't be surprising, as the Yankees have historically been a team built around power. Rickey Henderson stole 326 in five years with the Yankees, so he nearly equaled Jeter. Henderson also had a 135 OPS + those five years with the Yankees. Jeter had one season in twenty (1999, 153) with an OPS + over 135. That's why Henderson's considered an all-time great. Jeter just didn't get that many extra base hits, either. His last fifteen years, he averaged 28 doubles, 2 triples and 13 home runs, or 33 doubles, 3 triples and 16 home runs per 162 games played, in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts. In 1996, his first full season, there was a league average of 5.39 runs per game, the third highest in the 117 years of American League history. Between '96 and 2005, there were an average of 5.01 runs scored per game. Compare that to the last five years, when there were an average of 4.46 runs per game. When you consider what other premier hitters were doing, Jeter's offensive numbers look downright paltry.

Originally Posted by BLongley

He is the Yankees' all-time career leader in hits (3,465), doubles (544), games played (2,747), stolen bases (358), times on base (4,716), plate appearances (12,602) and at bats (11,195). His accolades include 14 All-Star selections, five Gold Glove Awards, five Silver Slugger Awards, two Hank Aaron Awards, and a Roberto Clemente Award. Jeter was the 28th player to reach 3,000 hits and finished his career ranked sixth in MLB history in career hits and first among shortstops.

Games played, times on base, plate appearances, at bats. Compiled stats from a long career.

Hits? The last five years, Jeter was downright awful. He combined for 4.9 WAR, worth less than one win a season. If his name weren't Derek Jeter, the Yankees would have (and should have) canned him. Only a decent 2012 where he hit .316 salvaged the last quarter of his career from being a complete embarrassment. Like Rose at the end of his career trying to top Cobb, Jeter was clearly just trying to get to 3,000 hits and beyond. He got 718 hits those last five seasons, with a 94 OPS +. He was 6% below league average with the bat, and abysmal defensively.

And, I know the awards. All Star Games are popularity contests, so a guy playing in (by far) the most populous city in America being sent 14 times, when in a handful of those seasons he clearly wasn't deserving, doesn't impress me. Robin Yount wasn't even an All Star in 1989 when he won the MVP. The most deserving players don't always go, and sometimes, a player goes just because their name is Derek Jeter, even when they were worth 0.2 WAR for the whole season. Same with the Gold Gloves. He was at best an average shortstop in his prime, and awful otherwise. The Silver Sluggers? Somebody at every position has to win one. Jeter won one in 2008 with a 102 OPS +. The position in the American League was abysmal that year, so he was the least undeserving player. The award shouldn't have even been handed out that year because American League shortstops were pathetic. The other four seasons he put up pretty good numbers.

Originally Posted by BLongley

The only players with more career hits than Jeter are Pete Rose, Ty Cobb, Hank Aaron, Stan Musial and Tris Speaker. And you have to remember all of Jeters postseason records, all time postseason hits leader, etc.

Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker are immortals of the game. Jeter doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with those other men. And Rose? Well, Rose and Jeter are a good deal alike at first glance. They played long careers, and put up some monster compiling numbers. Jeter was a career .310 hitter in 12,602 PAs. In 12,935 PAs, which covered the period 1963 to 1980 (when Rose turned 40, the age at which Jeter retired), Rose was also a .310 career hitter. Jeter had a 115 career OPS +, and Rose, at the same point, was at 124. And they had similar career WAR. But unlike Jeter, Rose actually won three batting title, and he led the league in doubles five times. He led the league in hits seven times (Jeter did it twice), and in runs scored four times (once for Jeter). He also led the league in OBP twice.

And the postseason records? He was a member of the Yankees for two decades, a franchise that was in the playoffs nearly every year. He should be at or near the top in many categories, don't you think? Again, games played, at bats, plate appearances, hits-when you play a long time on a team that is incredibly successful, you amass those numbers. He was a .308 hitter in the post season. Pretty good, but hardly spectacular. He had some great post season series, and he had some terrible ones. Overall, he was a pretty good player in October. But is he close to being one of the best performers in playoff history? Nope.

Derek Jeter is worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. But his "greatness" as a player is totally overblown. The second half of his career, he was a slightly above average offensive player, and awful defensively. The last seven years (or, one third) of his career, he had a 101 OPS +. That's league average, folks. I know WAR isn't the ultimate metric, but if we're going by that for a quick eyeball test, and 5 + WAR is considered All Star level, from age 26 on, the last fifteen years of his career, Jeter had exactly three seasons that were All Star caliber. 2001 was a 5.2 WAR, 2006 was a 5.4, and 2009 was a 6.6 WAR. He had one other fringe All Star caliber season with a 4.6 in 2000. Besides the 4.2 he put up in 2004, he failed to reach 4 WAR in ten seasons. By WAR, he was All Star caliber in six of his eighteen full seasons.

Jeter is in the Hall because he hit .310 lifetime with 3,000 hits, 75% of which were singles.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by WillBBC

I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!

But, he didn't put up rock solid production year in, year out.

Forgetting, for a moment, his defense, which was atrocious. Look at his offensive production, keeping in mind that 100 is league average for OPS +.

Excluding 1995 and 2013, as he played a combined 32 games, the years you could argue Jeter had "rock solid production" at shortstop:

1999 153 OPS +. Great season, MVP caliber, given his position.
2000 132 OPS +. Very good season, right?

In his second best offensive season, Derek Jeter was only the third best hitting shortstop in the American League. Alex Rodriguez put up a 163 OPS +, and Nomar Garciaparra put up a 156 OPS +.

Continuing.

2000 (128 OPS +), 1998 (127 OPS +), 2003, '05 and '09 (125 OPS +), 2001 (124 OPS +), 2007 (121 OPS +).

All solid, if unspectacular seasons. If you're a shortstop producing twenty percent above league average or higher, you're still valuable with the bat. Jeter had to keep this kind of offensive performance to continue being valuable to the team, because his defense is below average.

This next batch of seasons is where things get dicey, as his offensive production doesn't adequately offset his defensive deficiencies.

In 2004 and '12, he had a 114 OPS +. He was 30 years old in 2004. There were 77 batters in the American League with at least 500 PAs. Derek Jeter was 32nd in the AL in OPS +, and a very distant third best offensive shortstop, behind Carlos Guillen (143 OPS +) and Miguel Tejada (131 OPS +).

In 2002, his OPS + was 111. He was 28 years old. Of the 71 batters with 500 or more plate appearances in the American League, Derek Jeter was 41st overall. His OPS + was 7 points above Omar Vizquel's 104, who was not known as a hitting shortstop. Overall, he was the fourth best offensive shortstop in the AL, behind Alex Rodriguez (158), Miguel Tejada (128), and Nomar Garciaparra (127). By WAR, Derek Jeter was the fifth best shortstop in the American League (3.7), behind Alex Rodriguez (8.8), Nomar Garciapara (6.8), Miguel Tejada (5.6), and David Eckstein (5.3).

In 1997, his OPS + was 103. This is at least understandable, given his age, and Major League service time.

In 2008, his OPS + was 102. This is his age 34 season. He was a league average hitter. Fortunately for Jeter, the shortstops in the American League were terrible that year. Yet, he was still only the third best offensive shortstop, behind Mike Aviles (121 OPS +) and Jhonny Peralta (113 OPS +). And by league OPS +, of the 103 batters with over 400 plate appearances, Derek Jeter was 55th.

In 1996, his OPS + was 101. He won the Rookie of the Year
In 2011, his OPS + was 100.
In 2010, his OPS + was 90.
In 2014, his OPS + was 76.

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

But it's the other seasons just above those listed that are problematic. A 111 or 114 OPS + really isn't that good, either at age 28 or 30. Not for a Hall of Fame shortstop who got to Cooperstown solely on his hitting. I can forgive his 114 OPS + in 2012 because he was 38. But in the big picture, that's nine of eighteen full seasons where his OPS + was 114 or lower.

Was Derek Jeter ever the best shortstop in the American League? I'm not even including the NL, here. Just the AL.

[BLongley]

When it's all said and done you can make arguments about many HOFs. How many are still truly great near the end of their career... they all have bottoms and peaks... Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and others included... Willie Mays hit 1 HR in the playoffs...

Jeter got the nicknames Mr November and Captain Clutch, and yes went to the postseason consistently and that's why he has many postseason records. Do you think maybe he had something to do with them going to the postseason??? He played in one game in his entire career that was meaningless...the Yankees were in some sort of playoff contention in every other regular or postseason game that he played. He has won World Series MVP... How many for Banks, oh how many playoffs did Banks go to.... none.... his 500 HRs and MVPs never got his team to the playoffs? How many World Series for Yount....none.... Yount never lead the league in any of the triple crown categories....which to you was a big knock on Jeter... One could argue Banks is only in the Hall because he hit 500 HRs... he was a terrible defensive SS.... but he won 2 MVPs, was Mr Cub and was beloved by many...but he barely hit .250 in any of his last 10 seasons, but to you he is amazing? I think he is amazing too, but more for than what just his stats say... most HOF players are more amazing than their stats say...

What means more to you? Having your favorite player win an MVP? Or you favorite team winning the World Series? Jeter played in a steroid induced era (hence his annual AL SS offensive numbers being 3rd behind ARod and Tejada, both known steroid users) and didn't cheat. Derek Jeter played consistently in the playoffs and in the biggest games, Jeters play to get Giambi at home, his dive into the stands vs the Red Sox, his HR in the 96 ALCS are the plays people remember...they don't remember that he hit only .250 in a postseason series, etc....

I'm a Yankees fan and Jeter was my favorite player... I have been to dozens of regular season games and I have been to World Series games watching him...the entire nation watched him numerous times on TV during the playoffs. Sure he had good and bad postseasons, back to Willie Mays... who was terrible in his few post season appearances...does that make Willie Mays less of a player? Based on your analysis it does....

You don't have to like him, or the Yankees.

Apparently there are many more people with lots of money that believe Jeter is one of the greats and value his rookie cards... especially his 93SP.... the money talks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A Rod was by far the superior baseball player, but he was a steroid user, an egomaniac and a whiner who also was prone to prodigious playoff slumps. The contrast IMO is a huge part of why Jeter was so popular despite lesser abilities and accomplishments. Imagine if Ripken, who IMO was much better than Jeter, had played in NY.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Rod was by far the superior baseball player, but he was a steroid user, an egomaniac and a whiner who also was prone to prodigious playoff slumps. The contrast IMO is a huge part of why Jeter was so popular despite lesser abilities and accomplishments. Imagine if Ripken, who IMO was much better than Jeter, had played in NY.

Well said , I’m a Yankees fan I don’t get either. Idk who you give your team is but I watched a lot of jeter. I liked him but he wasn’t always my favorite or the best player on the field. If I had to make a argument it would be that he played in the steroid era clean. He played against pitcher and defensively that were roided out like never before. I guess if you take that into account his star didn’t shine as bright. When people are mashing homers and throwing gas all day to look at jeter and say he a all time great is hard to do.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Nice argument until you said his defense was "atrocious".

See the flip play. His jump throws. Him diving into the seats.

Was he great defensively? No of course not.

But "atrocious" defenders dont play the position for 20 years....

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But, he didn't put up rock solid production year in, year out.

Forgetting, for a moment, his defense, which was atrocious. Look at his offensive production, keeping in mind that 100 is league average for OPS +.

Excluding 1995 and 2013, as he played a combined 32 games, the years you could argue Jeter had "rock solid production" at shortstop:

1999 153 OPS +. Great season, MVP caliber, given his position.
2000 132 OPS +. Very good season, right?

In his second best offensive season, Derek Jeter was only the third best hitting shortstop in the American League. Alex Rodriguez put up a 163 OPS +, and Nomar Garciaparra put up a 156 OPS +.

Continuing.

2000 (128 OPS +), 1998 (127 OPS +), 2003, '05 and '09 (125 OPS +), 2001 (124 OPS +), 2007 (121 OPS +).

All solid, if unspectacular seasons. If you're a shortstop producing twenty percent above league average or higher, you're still valuable with the bat. Jeter had to keep this kind of offensive performance to continue being valuable to the team, because his defense is below average.

This next batch of seasons is where things get dicey, as his offensive production doesn't adequately offset his defensive deficiencies.

In 2004 and '12, he had a 114 OPS +. He was 30 years old in 2004. There were 77 batters in the American League with at least 500 PAs. Derek Jeter was 32nd in the AL in OPS +, and a very distant third best offensive shortstop, behind Carlos Guillen (143 OPS +) and Miguel Tejada (131 OPS +).

In 2002, his OPS + was 111. He was 28 years old. Of the 71 batters with 500 or more plate appearances in the American League, Derek Jeter was 41st overall. His OPS + was 7 points above Omar Vizquel's 104, who was not known as a hitting shortstop. Overall, he was the fourth best offensive shortstop in the AL, behind Alex Rodriguez (158), Miguel Tejada (128), and Nomar Garciaparra (127). By WAR, Derek Jeter was the fifth best shortstop in the American League (3.7), behind Alex Rodriguez (8.8), Nomar Garciapara (6.8), Miguel Tejada (5.6), and David Eckstein (5.3).

In 1997, his OPS + was 103. This is at least understandable, given his age, and Major League service time.

In 2008, his OPS + was 102. This is his age 34 season. He was a league average hitter. Fortunately for Jeter, the shortstops in the American League were terrible that year. Yet, he was still only the third best offensive shortstop, behind Mike Aviles (121 OPS +) and Jhonny Peralta (113 OPS +). And by league OPS +, of the 103 batters with over 400 plate appearances, Derek Jeter was 55th.

In 1996, his OPS + was 101. He won the Rookie of the Year
In 2011, his OPS + was 100.
In 2010, his OPS + was 90.
In 2014, his OPS + was 76.

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

But it's the other seasons just above those listed that are problematic. A 111 or 114 OPS + really isn't that good, either at age 28 or 30. Not for a Hall of Fame shortstop who got to Cooperstown solely on his hitting. I can forgive his 114 OPS + in 2012 because he was 38. But in the big picture, that's nine of eighteen full seasons where his OPS + was 114 or lower.

Was Derek Jeter ever the best shortstop in the American League? I'm not even including the NL, here. Just the AL.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Nice argument until you said his defense was "atrocious".

See the flip play. His jump throws. Him diving into the seats.

Was he great defensively? No of course not.

But "atrocious" defenders dont play the position for 20 years....

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

This is pretty great - reads like a perfect Michael Shur argument right off the Poscast...

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-...eters-defense/

[pokerplyr80]

I'm not sure now many collectors care about stats like war and ops+, but I can tell you that I sure dont.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'm not sure now many collectors care about stats like war and ops+, but I can tell you that I sure dont.

Those are old metrics now, try the new ones like BABIP, FIP, etc.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

And yet, in his prime, he was nowhere near the shortstop Yount or Banks were in theirs. Banks won two MVPs. Yount won two, also. One at shortstop, another in center field.



LOL at mentioning Jeter's fielding as being part of the reason the Yankees were successful.

First of all, regarding his base running, he was decent on the bases. Let's not make him out to be Rickey Henderson as a base stealer, or Stan Musial with the doubles and triples, because he wasn't. Stealing 356 bases in two decades, and 4,717 times on base, isn't that great. That he leads the Yankees all-time shouldn't be surprising, as the Yankees have historically been a team built around power. Rickey Henderson stole 326 in five years with the Yankees, so he nearly equaled Jeter. Henderson also had a 135 OPS + those five years with the Yankees. Jeter had one season in twenty (1999, 153) with an OPS + over 135. That's why Henderson's considered an all-time great. Jeter just didn't get that many extra base hits, either. His last fifteen years, he averaged 28 doubles, 2 triples and 13 home runs, or 33 doubles, 3 triples and 16 home runs per 162 games played, in an era where offensive numbers were off the charts. In 1996, his first full season, there was a league average of 5.39 runs per game, the third highest in the 117 years of American League history. Between '96 and 2005, there were an average of 5.01 runs scored per game. Compare that to the last five years, when there were an average of 4.46 runs per game. When you consider what other premier hitters were doing, Jeter's offensive numbers look downright paltry.



Games played, times on base, plate appearances, at bats. Compiled stats from a long career.

Hits? The last five years, Jeter was downright awful. He combined for 4.9 WAR, worth less than one win a season. If his name weren't Derek Jeter, the Yankees would have (and should have) canned him. Only a decent 2012 where he hit .316 salvaged the last quarter of his career from being a complete embarrassment. Like Rose at the end of his career trying to top Cobb, Jeter was clearly just trying to get to 3,000 hits and beyond. He got 718 hits those last five seasons, with a 94 OPS +. He was 6% below league average with the bat, and abysmal defensively.

And, I know the awards. All Star Games are popularity contests, so a guy playing in (by far) the most populous city in America being sent 14 times, when in a handful of those seasons he clearly wasn't deserving, doesn't impress me. Robin Yount wasn't even an All Star in 1989 when he won the MVP. The most deserving players don't always go, and sometimes, a player goes just because their name is Derek Jeter, even when they were worth 0.2 WAR for the whole season. Same with the Gold Gloves. He was at best an average shortstop in his prime, and awful otherwise. The Silver Sluggers? Somebody at every position has to win one. Jeter won one in 2008 with a 102 OPS +. The position in the American League was abysmal that year, so he was the least undeserving player. The award shouldn't have even been handed out that year because American League shortstops were pathetic. The other four seasons he put up pretty good numbers.



Cobb, Aaron, Musial and Speaker are immortals of the game. Jeter doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with those other men. And Rose? Well, Rose and Jeter are a good deal alike at first glance. They played long careers, and put up some monster compiling numbers. Jeter was a career .310 hitter in 12,602 PAs. In 12,935 PAs, which covered the period 1963 to 1980 (when Rose turned 40, the age at which Jeter retired), Rose was also a .310 career hitter. Jeter had a 115 career OPS +, and Rose, at the same point, was at 124. And they had similar career WAR. But unlike Jeter, Rose actually won three batting title, and he led the league in doubles five times. He led the league in hits seven times (Jeter did it twice), and in runs scored four times (once for Jeter). He also led the league in OBP twice.

And the postseason records? He was a member of the Yankees for two decades, a franchise that was in the playoffs nearly every year. He should be at or near the top in many categories, don't you think? Again, games played, at bats, plate appearances, hits-when you play a long time on a team that is incredibly successful, you amass those numbers. He was a .308 hitter in the post season. Pretty good, but hardly spectacular. He had some great post season series, and he had some terrible ones. Overall, he was a pretty good player in October. But is he close to being one of the best performers in playoff history? Nope.

Derek Jeter is worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. But his "greatness" as a player is totally overblown. The second half of his career, he was a slightly above average offensive player, and awful defensively. The last seven years (or, one third) of his career, he had a 101 OPS +. That's league average, folks. I know WAR isn't the ultimate metric, but if we're going by that for a quick eyeball test, and 5 + WAR is considered All Star level, from age 26 on, the last fifteen years of his career, Jeter had exactly three seasons that were All Star caliber. 2001 was a 5.2 WAR, 2006 was a 5.4, and 2009 was a 6.6 WAR. He had one other fringe All Star caliber season with a 4.6 in 2000. Besides the 4.2 he put up in 2004, he failed to reach 4 WAR in ten seasons. By WAR, he was All Star caliber in six of his eighteen full seasons.

Jeter is in the Hall because he hit .310 lifetime with 3,000 hits, 75% of which were singles.

This is outstanding. I agree with everything here. I am not a Yankees fan (Red Sox, in fact), but I respect Jeter and the way he played the game and am glad that he's retired now so I can openly express that respect. But 'Stache is correct.

However, Jeter had a penchant for "moments" and was able to build a legend that way. I believe there's an unquantifiable merit to that and it is in that merit that naysayers and Yankees fans reach an impasse. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Arthur

[Dpeck100]

I think all of the super hot chicks he got to spend quality time with also has helped his legacy.

Jeter is the guy that has it all!

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-...eters-defense/

I'll see your link and raise you one:


http://www.highheatstats.com/2014/03/owar-and-dwar/

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

This is outstanding. I agree with everything here. I am not a Yankees fan (Red Sox, in fact), but I respect Jeter and the way he played the game and am glad that he's retired now so I can openly express that respect. But 'Stache is correct.

However, Jeter had a penchant for "moments" and was able to build a legend that way. I believe there's an unquantifiable merit to that and it is in that merit that naysayers and Yankees fans reach an impasse. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

Arthur

That's it, it's about the "moments"... nobody remembers that Koufax struggled his first 6 years of his 12 year career... everyone remembers his refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur, and leading the Dodgers to world championships... who cares about the fact Koufax only had 6 great years...

How about the guy that in 1999 batted .324, 47 HRs, and 148 RBI's. The same guy for his career had 3,020 hits, 569 HRs, 1835 RBIs, and batted .288.

What was his WAR in 1999? Should this player be in the Hall?

Can you guess who the player is.... Rafael Palmeiro....

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

I'm not a Jeter guy at all, but I'll respectfully disagree with you. A league average hitter at shortstop is very valuable, but Jeter provided above average production for approximately 2/3s of his career, which has tremendous value.

Jeter finished a career OPS of .817, which ranks 7th all tie for SS based on MLB's sortable stats table. And that is more impressive considering that table includes Hanley Ramirez and Nomar Garciaparra above him on the list - two guys who played significantly less at short than Jeter did.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by BLongley

That's it, it's about the "moments"... nobody remembers that Koufax struggled his first 6 years of his 12 year career... everyone remembers his refusing to pitch on Yom Kippur, and leading the Dodgers to world championships... who cares about the fact Koufax only had 6 great years...

How about the guy that in 1999 batted .324, 47 HRs, and 148 RBI's. The same guy for his career had 3,020 hits, 569 HRs, 1835 RBIs, and batted .288.

What was his WAR in 1999? Should this player be in the Hall?

Can you guess who the player is.... Rafael Palmeiro....

Eh...I think it is disingenuous to post Palmeiro's stats without naming him, then asking if the player should be in the Hall of Fame. Palmeiro is one of the most notorious steroid guys of his era. There is a gigantic reason he is not in the HoF, and it has nothing at all to do with his numbers.

[BLongley]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Eh...I think it is disingenuous to post Palmeiro's stats without naming him, then asking if the player should be in the Hall of Fame. Palmeiro is one of the most notorious steroid guys of his era. There is a gigantic reason he is not in the HoF, and it has nothing at all to do with his numbers.

You think Palmerio would be in the Hall if he put up those numbers and didn't take steroids? I can't remember any big game moments with him and I grew up watching him and others... should Fred McGriff be in the Hall? He hit 493 HRs same as Lou Gehrig...

Palmerio proves my point exactly and there are others we can find and use if you want... Jeter played during an Era of steroid users and batted against pitchers taking them too... two players that Stach mentions as being better short stops than Jeter are notorious roid users too... Tejada and ARod...my point is that it's not all about the numbers and I did name Palmerio at the end... I'm just trying to let you all know how I'm thinking...

[steve B]

A few random thoughts on the last several posts.

Big game moments..... Meh, otherwise I'll be happy to see Kirk Gibson in the hall. Some of Jeters "big" moments were I felt overrated. he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does.
dive into the stands after a ball? Yep, same deal.
Both very good plays, and on the other side, I saw another Yankee player in the late 70's early 80's make an almost identical dive into the stands at Fenway and lose the ball, his hat, glove, and nearly jersey.... Yes, Jeter got a bit more respect. they also got out of the way, which is why he hit his head on the seat.... Hmmm ... respect?

Banks and Yount didn't win world series etc.
Don't you think that says more about their teams than them?
If it was all about one guy, the 78 series could have been decided by the Allstar break, instead of after that other shortstop who won't be named hit just his 5th HR of the year in the last game/extra game of the regular season.

There's a reason we chanted "Nomars better" as much as a year or two after Nomar got traded, even at the point where he just wasn't better anymore.


I do have to say that even though he was a Yankee, I did respect Jeter and how he played the game as well as his overall attitude. When he was asked about being booed in Boston for so long he said the fans of the two cities were a lot alike, and that being booed meant that the fans of the other team recognized you were actually pretty good as they usually didn't bother doing that to the bad players. It's pretty hard to dislike a guy who plays hard and seems to understand the fans too.

[BLongley]

"he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does."

Go watch those plays again and I'd be curious if you said the same thing...

As I mentioned I'm a Yankee and Jeter fan so I know I'm biased, but I will recognize other great plays by players when they are great!

[WillBBC]

I always found this play by Jeter to be his most impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Yt8r9ybS8

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BLongley

You think Palmerio would be in the Hall if he put up those numbers and didn't take steroids? I can't remember any big game moments with him and I grew up watching him and others... should Fred McGriff be in the Hall? He hit 493 HRs same as Lou Gehrig...

Palmerio proves my point exactly and there are others we can find and use if you want... Jeter played during an Era of steroid users and batted against pitchers taking them too... two players that Stach mentions as being better short stops than Jeter are notorious roid users too... Tejada and ARod...my point is that it's not all about the numbers and I did name Palmerio at the end... I'm just trying to let you all know how I'm thinking...

500 HR and 3000 Hits, yeah Palmeiro is in no doubt.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BLongley

"he backed up a play and didn't lose focus staying with the play. Yep, that's what a major leaguer does."

Go watch those plays again and I'd be curious if you said the same thing...

As I mentioned I'm a Yankee and Jeter fan so I know I'm biased, but I will recognize other great plays by players when they are great!

Most pros can make really great plays. Didn't catch the time on many of them, but the ones at 1:06 and 2:10 are particularly nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRUu7yNmLXo

A few more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qbaKuai7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U5Yu8y0LmU

The one here at 1:13 is really similar to another play of Jeters that was raved about as the "greatest play ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDgL91zBVLo


None of that is to say that Jeter wasn't an excellent player and fielder. Some of the plays that are his best were I think a product of having a lot of awareness of where the throw or play in general was going and the ability to both see that and put himself in the place he needed to be to have any chance of making the play work. That's something that isn't really teachable and doesn't always rely on raw athletic ability.

[BLongley]

Ok, here is Jeter just backing up the relay in the ALDS (Yanks down 2 games to 0 on verge of elimination)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ApoJk9X7Vto


Here is an ALCS play
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzR0RKRWTQ

I get it you don't want to post Jeters, you want to post the top plays from around the league over different years. You're a Red Sox fan it's tough to do! But it is a compliment to Jeter that you had to search for greatest plays in history to find similar plays.

The dive against the Red Sox:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=seC63AEk4-8

Originally Posted by steve B

Most pros can make really great plays. Didn't catch the time on many of them, but the ones at 1:06 and 2:10 are particularly nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRUu7yNmLXo

A few more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5qbaKuai7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U5Yu8y0LmU

The one here at 1:13 is really similar to another play of Jeters that was raved about as the "greatest play ever"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDgL91zBVLo


None of that is to say that Jeter wasn't an excellent player and fielder. Some of the plays that are his best were I think a product of having a lot of awareness of where the throw or play in general was going and the ability to both see that and put himself in the place he needed to be to have any chance of making the play work. That's something that isn't really teachable and doesn't always rely on raw athletic ability.

[BLongley]

And here is Jeter making a tough play on Big Papi at second

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KKGs-Jzy09M

[steve B]

It's probably more appropriate for the sports watercooler, but since we're here...

Plays like that one on Ortiz are some of my favorites. That both players could kid each other after says a lot about them. I can't ever recall Ortiz being accused of being a great baserunner... Good enough, but not exactly a speedster. That might just be Jeters greatest play ever!!!!!

The flip play was the one I was thinking of most when I mentioned awareness. I believe most pros, especially shortstops and second basemen could make the play physically.
What was hard was knowing the throw was going to be past the firs baseman and off line, and getting over to be in position to make the play. That's the part of it that impresses me.
Looking at the slow motion of the tag, at the end of that video, I think the ump called it wrong. But that's practically ancient history and it was very close. Sometimes I think there's a "great play" fudge factor to some calls. and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The jump and long throw was good, maybe a bit better than most. But for a while, it was almost routine for AL shortstops. Jeter and Nomar made plays like that regularly, and Arod, and Tejada weren't far behind. I looked for Garciaparra highlights, but most focus on his hitting.

The dive is what it is. It's a bit above and beyond what most players would do, but most of the great ones have that focus on getting the ball and making the play.

On the videos I found, one that stuck out was Boone? and Rose. Catcher and 1b pursue a foul, catcher just misses it but the 1b is there to grab the ball. Jeter made a nearly identical play and it was hyped for days. Great play, yes! greatest play ever as some writers claimed? Nope. It's that hype that always bugged me.
I used the compilations for a couple reasons. One was that it was quicker and I was a bit lazy. The second was that they showed a lot of excellent plays many of them from players who aren't exactly all time greats.

But yeah, even as a Sox fan, you had to respect Jeter. He always played hard, maybe even a bit extra against the Sox. And I can't really recall him ever complaining about much of anything.

[steve B]

I like this dive into the stands a lot more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQGmWv57klQ

[CW]

I was fortunate enough to pick up a PSA 9 of this card many years ago when they were only a few hundred bucks. Wish I had bought more, but such is life.

I also recently received this custom sketch card as a gift from a very cool Twitter user, IDrawBaseballCards. Check out his feed -- he has some cool creations. This card just puts a smile on my face.

[WillBBC]

Haha, I love that sketch! Following that ID now!

[irv]

One to watch.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...Auction-120115

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by irv

One to watch.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...Auction-120115

I don't think it will hit the reserve.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think it will hit the reserve.

I wonder if they attempted to cross to a 10?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think it will hit the reserve.

Beautiful card but I don't see an SGC Gem selling for 50k. I know this is a pro SGC board and PSA sucks but in the real world PSA is king and anyone paying huge money for this card wants it in a PSA 10 slab.

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

PSA would never put that in their own 10 holder. That would be admitting SGC is just as good as them. I've got a better chance of flapping my jellybag and making it to the moon than that card has of getting into a PSA 10 slab on a crossover.

And I don't think anyone has the cajones to crack and submit raw. Nope, that card is destined to make the AH rounds, changing hands with people that fall in love with the 1-of-1 and think they'll be able to flip it for a profit, only to end up unloading it for (hopefully) what they got it for or a little less, all while reminding everyone that SGC < PSA (in this instance).

If I've seen it once I've seen it a million times.

Arthur

[Neal]

Originally Posted by HasselhoffsCheeseburger

PSA would never put that in their own 10 holder. That would be admitting SGC is just as good as them. I've got a better chance of flapping my jellybag and making it to the moon than that card has of getting into a PSA 10 slab on a crossover.

And I don't think anyone has the cajones to crack and submit raw. Nope, that card is destined to make the AH rounds, changing hands with people that fall in love with the 1-of-1 and think they'll be able to flip it for a profit, only to end up unloading it for (hopefully) what they got it for or a little less, all while reminding everyone that SGC < PSA (in this instance).

If I've seen it once I've seen it a million times.

Arthur

pretty much that

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think it will hit the reserve.

It sold for $60,000 including the juice. Quite a gap between the last "10" sale.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...Auction-120115

[AGuinness]

Here we go again. Interested to see where this auction ends up after the others...

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53...gAAOSw8fJbkv6O



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[CW]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Here we go again. Interested to see where this auction ends up after the others...

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53...gAAOSw8fJbkv6O



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Link goes to eBay front page for some reason, Garth. I am guessing you were pointing to this PSA 10 offered up by PWCC, ending in a few hours

LINK

I wonder if the small white specks on the scan are from the scanner bed, the holder, or card itself.



€hû¢k Wölƒ

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by CW

Link goes to eBay front page for some reason, Garth. I am guessing you were pointing to this PSA 10 offered up by PWCC, ending in a few hours



LINK



I wonder if the small white specks on the scan are from the scanner bed, the holder, or card itself.







€hû¢k Wölƒ

That’s the one. Thanks for the link!


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[irv]

Remember when we were all shaking our heads, myself included, at this card receiving/being sold for a $100 g's?

Wow! What's the next sale, $250,000 G's?
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=60829

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by irv

Remember when we were all shaking our heads, myself included, at this card receiving/being sold for a $100 g's?



Wow! What's the next sale, $250,000 G's?

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=60829

Holy ——


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Lol