What do you guys think about..........Cardtarget

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I think it's kinda cool. It's not for me, but it's kinda cool. Just another business concept.

This quote in Mike's explanation is the key, IMO: "We wrap it into a nice interface to make it more fun, pretty, and interesting and give users the look and feel of stock trading software, but it's still a sports card. "

I don't think anyone would go to that website and think it's something that it's not. It's people chipping in and buying a piece of a baseball card. It looks like the stock market, IMO, the same way that Monopoly looks like real estate. It's modeled after the basic concept, has a lot of the same bells and whistles, but I can't expect a dividend on a '39 Greenberg any more than I can move my family to my house on St. James Place.

Want a '52 Mantle but can't afford one? Chip in with 100 other people and buy a PSA 7 for $500.

To me, it seems more like timeshares than the stock market.

Not for me at all, but I can see how someone might think it's a cool concept. The world is filled with business models that appeal to some and yet not to others.

-Al

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Posted By: jay behrens

The big difference between this and Monopoly is that you stand to lose real money with this "diversion". At least I don't think anyone here plays Monopoly for real money.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

I understand that, Jay, but I also think that with any business that sells things, a certain level of responsibility lies with the consumer to make educated decisions about how they spend their money.

I have a cousin who just destroyed an entire storage locker full of rookie cards he bought as "investments" in the 80s - thousands of Kevin Seitzer and Gregg Jeffries cards, all burned in a big Long Island bonfire. I see very little difference, other than the fact that my cousin actually had possession of the cardboard, and that it was absolutely worthless.

Given a choice between buying a thousand Robinson Cano rookie cards and a fraction of a PSA 8 Ruth, if there were no other choices and someone was holding a gun to my head, I'd pick the Ruth.

I think.

-Al

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Wouldn't it be easier to just make side bets on SMR price changes every month?

Just another sign of the apocalypse.

I'd hate to be this guy's lawyer in a couple of years.
So many ways for it to go bad...

What if the secondary market trades at a discount (like almost all closed end funds)? Can the promoter buy up shares, sell the card and pocket the difference? Who can sell the card? Can the promoter sell the card and distribute the proceeds to the shares even though all shareholders may have purchased at different prices? And even if this results in a loss to some or all shareholders? Shares being sold primarily to unsophisticated investors (Gee, Mr. Keating, I thought these holding company bonds were federally insured bank deposits!).

The only way this doesn't end in a train wreck is if it never leaves the station. End this thread and run away-NOW.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree with Mike that the network54 board is not his target audience but also agree with Richard that too many things can go wrong here. The real target audience probably knows very little about baseball cards, and that is the problem right there. I'm going to predict in the short run this company will entice a large number of clients but the enterprise will ultimately come to an unhappy ending.

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Posted By: Joann

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You can securitize almost anything; remember when David Bowie issued securities on the future royalties of his music?

Focusing on the Federal law exclusively is incorrect. Nearly every developed state has a Blue Skies Law that prohibits the sale of "securities" in the state absent either state or Federal registration. You asked for specifics. OK:

California's Corporate Securities Law of 1968 (Corporations code 25000 et seq) defines security to include "any note; stock; treasury stock; membership
in an incorporated or unincorporated association; bond; debenture;
evidence of indebtedness; certificate of interest or participation in
any profit-sharing agreement; collateral trust certificate;
preorganization certificate or subscription; transferable share;
investment contract..." [25109] and a whole host of similar vehicles.

The definitions are not exclusive; the courts look through the transactions to determine what is really going on. There are cases going all the way back to the 1920s that find securities to exist where the investors put up cash and rely on the efforts of the cash recipients to hold the assets and make them money later on. Here are some examples:

Contracts for the purchase of chinchillas from a corporation, together with agreements of that and another corporation to care for the animals so as to enable the purchasers to share in the profit to be realized from the breeding and the sale through the corporations of the animals and their pelts, constituted investments not only in the animals but also in a service. Hence they were "securities" within the purview of the Corporate Securities Act and of the federal Securities Act of 1933 (15 USCS §§ 77a, 77e), and were void where the corporations had not procured a permit from California or filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission the statement required by the federal statute. Hollywood State Bank v Wilde (1945) 70 Cal App 2d 103, 160 P2d 846."

Where defendant, by instruments in writing agreed that each of certain persons who advanced money to him should "have one-twentieth interest in all of the gold and other values recovered from" a mining claim leased by defendant, and that when he incorporated the copartnership such persons should receive one-twentieth of the stock, each instrument constituted a "security" within the meaning of § 2(7) of the Act. People v Claggett (1933) 130 Cal App 141, 19 P2d 805.

Where corporation, which purported to operate brokerage service assisting qualified citizens to acquire oil and gas leases from federal government on tracts smaller than 640-acre minimum leased by government, entered into transactions involving trust arrangements, wherein purchaser's money and title to lease were held in trust by corporation or its representative until transaction was consummated, corporation, as trustee, issuing confirmation slip to purchaser, confirmation slip constituted certificate of interest in oil lease and hence "security" within this section. Oil Lease Service, Inc. v Stephenson (1958, 2nd Dist) 162 Cal App 2d 100, 327 P2d 628.

Under Corp. Code, § 25019, defining a security to include "evidence of indebtedness" and "investment contract," installment notes bearing interest and providing for payment of a percentage of the gross income generated by the debtor's business were securities, where the investors in the notes provided defendant with money with which to operate his business and in return were promised a share of the gross income, where defendant managed, controlled and operated the business, where the investors had no authority in its conduct and the profit on their investments depended solely on defendant's expertise, skill and honesty, and the investors could be described as "relatively uninformed" regarding the operation of defendant's business. People v Coster (1984, 2nd Dist) 151 Cal App 3d 1188, 199 Cal Rptr 253.

If a unit issued by an individual represents the division of the assets of a business carried on for profit, or in the distribution thereof, of the right to participate in the profits, earnings or income derived from such assets, it is a security under the definition of Corporate Securities Act § 8 subd 2. People v Oliver (1929) 102 Cal App 29, 282 P 813.

Definition of security as "any transferable share, investment contract, or beneficial interest in title to property, profits, or earnings" is designed to embrace speculative schemes to attract risk capital, no matter how ingeniously designed, and courts will look through form to substance to achieve this end. Sarmento v Arbax Packing Co. (1964, 3rd Dist) 231 Cal App 2d 421, 41 Cal Rptr 869.

Policy of state is to subject to regulation all schemes for investment, regardless of forms of procedure employed, that are designed to lead investors into enterprises where earnings and profits of business or speculative ventures must come through management, control, and operation of others and which, regardless of form, have characteristics of operations by corporations, trusts, or similar business structures. People v Rankin (1958, 2nd Dist) 160 Cal App 2d 93, 325 P2d 10.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I appreciate the citations.

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Posted By: BcD

he prints th e stuff!

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Posted By: Lee Plummer

As a member of both eTopps and CT, just wanted to chime in and give an opinion based on the target audience.

I have been collecting Baseball cards for over 20 years. Those who like this idea of owning, if even a small part, classic ball cards are normally the average joe. To say that we are not sophisticated or saavy enough to know what we are doing is, well, boorish. You would actually be surprised at what some of these collectors do for a living. All I ask is not to look down your noses at us. Not everyone makes 6 or 7 figures a year.

I watch the markets of pre-war and post war cards, but I also have to dream of the day I hit the lottery so I would be able to actually OWN one. Not with this market. I do not ever expect to become rich from this idea, as the card value is pretty much based off those cards that have sold or will sell in the future. Not a very large margin for profit. I will tell you that there are some only interested in turning a buck though.

I view it as a way to SLOWLY accumulate enough shares to actually own it, someway that would not "break my bank". Is that so wrong? I guess you can view it as a lay-away plan for card purchases. If he never allows for a card to be released, well then, we may have a problem. I also doubt, for the fella willing to plunk down $3,000 bucks, you would get even 50% for that. The guys who have been playing the eTopps game for awhile are kind of wily in this market. As for 51% ownership, I, too, wonder what the legal leg would be for possession. Would you own it in name only, since more shares are on the market, or do they retain possession until 100% ownership is reached? One would definitely have controlling interest of the card at 51%

As for the legal aspects of it, seems some of you would know more about that than me. Although, the securities trading aspect of this did cross my mind.

As for the CT staff, they are very well-respected members of the eTopps community, and I highly doubt they would do anything underhanded that would besmirch the reputation they have worked very hard at attaining. No different than that of those who regularly post to these forums. Could it happen, sure, again just like it could here. Unlike taking it to court though, I think we would be looking for a pound of flesh "wink wink".

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Posted By: jay behrens

I make less money than anyone ont his board except for the teenagers and my meger salary is not an excess to keep from buying cards. You say you do this to buy bits and pieces of a card until you can actually afford the whole thing. Why not just buy t206 or 33 Goudey commons. You wille ventually ahve enough to sell off and buy a big ticket card. You will most likely get a better return and you will certainly have much more liquid market for those cards than you would for imaginary bits of a card. You also get to hold some real cards in your had rather imagine what it would be like to hold 33 Goudey Ruth. I can do that without having to pay someone money.

Pieces of these cards still available for sale. As you can see, good bits are still available and I'll send you an acutal piece of the card



Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Lee Plummer

I do happen to own a t206 of Emil Batch, several 51 Topps Red Backs, but the bulk of my collection is from 70 on up. I am also working on a 68 Topps set in PSA 8 or better. My problem is not so much funds, but the fact I collect in set form. Putting $10+ a week into say the graded 39 Williams will not keep me from buying other cards. However, dropping $900 to $1500 for an ungraded one would, and for quite some time.

Everyone collects differently, we all know that. What may be within your qualifications may not make mine. Eye appeal is most important to me, so my problem lies in finding cards that match what I am willing to purchase within my price range. I also have a problem with letting cards go after I get them. I do understand what your saying about collecting the commons, would be a great way to peicemeal a set together.

By the way, nice collection there.

Note - edited to add a few things, including the last statement

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am known as the King of the Crappy Commons and those are actually some of the better looking cards I own

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: The Golden Ticket

The beginning of this idea was for 15 investors to put forth some money while being guaranteed at least enough shares to cover more then 25% of each IPO. That is why no votes can occur unless 75% or more vote on it. I know I was part of the beta group. The idea behind this market was to make liquid funds for everyone involved. We are up to $25,000 soon to be at $33,800. We will use this money to fund the eTopps booth at the National show this year since eTopps has pulled all funding. We hope to find some nice “RAW” cards while there which we can have graded and make more liquid assets. I hope people on this board see the potential we are trying to share with you on how to make easy free money.

The best part about selling this product on our board is we can edit and change any and all replies that do not benefit our site. Someone points out the flaws and we delete them and lock their account. There is no record of; where the card is kept, who the owner of the card is, who it is insured to, who it is insured by, where Cardtargets’ business is located, who the owners of the site are and/or a whole other complete list of legal issues. Things should be dealt with. Most of you are Lawyers can you lend any legal advice?


-Vernon

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Posted By: dstudeba

Free money....no records...sounds like a lot of businesses and business people in the Bahamas...HAHA!

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Posted By: The Golden Ticket

http://forums.etopps.com/etoppsForum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=70133&whichpage=1

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Posted By: jay behrens

"...an easy way to make free money."

Boy that instills all sorts of confidence in me about this venture. I run as far adn fast I can when I hear words like that when it comes to making money.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: The Golden Ticket

The last page of that post is the best. It talks about how the investors and owners of CTM feel about this site and it's users. Now really, have any of you passed the bar or is their post correct that you are all just beginning law students?


-Vernon

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"If I believe in the profitability of Microsoft the reason I buy shares is that I can't afford the whole company, and it's probably not for sale."

No, you invest in a stock gambling that it will increase in value. The main reason why you can make that investment with confidence is that the shares are liquid on a ready market that is open and regulated, and your account is held by insured, highly regulated entities, meaning that it is virtually certain that you will get what you pay for when you want your assets. Cardtarget essentially reverses 100 years of hard lessons for investors and asks you to give your money blindly to some guys who say that they have a card and say that they will make good on your share of that card when the time comes. Where is the third party escrow holding the cards and the cash and certifying the existence of either or both? Where is the insurer who can verify that the company has a fidelity bond to cover against its officers stealing the cards and money, or even casualty insurance on the purported collection it professes to hold for you? Nevermind the unregulated, illegal securities questions already raised, anyone stupid enough to hand over money to people they don't know on a promise that they now own shares in something that none of them ever will see with no external controls deserves to lose it. I suspect that the end of this situation will not be a nice one for those who put their money into it.

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Posted By: leon

On this board when we are talking about this kind of stuff it is mandatory to put your first and last name. I am not sure if your question about "are they really lawyers" was tongue in cheek or not. My guess is that we have approximately 150-200 "real" lawyers that visit this board each day. That is what our last poll showed...24% were lawyers and there are approximately 800 folks a day on this board currently. Certainly not all post but I do get a count of hits and unique IP's. On the weekends there are about 850 so that is the number I use. During the week the count is higher as folks go from work to home and login....now back to your name. If you don't care to post it then please don't post anymore in this thread....It's just the rules...best regards

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Posted By: The Golden Ticket

The name is Vernon Brittingham. I am a marketing representative for Sams Club. I ask because when I first read this thread I was under the understanding that you guys knew the legal aspects of this idea. Then I read the thread on their board and they made you all out to be a bunch of Clowns. I was just looking for any information as to how to find out the information listed above in my post. Owners, addresses, insurance papers. The owners of that site refuse to give the information to anyone. They would not even disclose the bank the cards were kept in claiming that it may cause the bank to get robbed. I also have a fax and telephone if you need further proof of who I am.

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Posted By: leon

All I wanted was to know who you are..We are good.....Believe me we have folks coming on here making wild accusations and if the maker of those accusations remained anonymous how could the board be taken seriously? 99.99% of the folks on this board are good, honest folks....even the lawyers . There are a lot of them that's for sure.....I think lawyers, doctors, business owners, and professors/educators were the top professions on the board in the last poll....Personally I sell technology for a living.....thanks for your understanding and by all means continue to post....regards

edited to say...it will be a cold day in hell when I give someone money, that I don't know, for something I can't see, don't know where it is...etc etc.....see Adam's good post for the rest....

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Posted By: Josh K.

Though I have remained silent as to the securities issues because Im not a securities lawyer, I am one of the many actual lawyers on this board - if anyone, including the clowns trashing lawyers over at CT or Etopps want to know whehter I graduated law school, passed a bar exam, clerked for the Supreme Court of North Carolina or anything else about me when I post a legal opinion, go to my firm website and look me up. www.maupintaylor.com

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Posted By: Vernon Brittingham

So no-one knows how to find the information on the company or how to assure the cards are where and what they say?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't think too many members of this board are all the concerned with this company since it is not something the vast majority of us would ever get involved with. If eTopps pulled their backing and you are having this much trouble finding out anything about this company that would give you confidence in it, I'd say you'd best run as far and fast from this operation as possible.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: bobbie

Hi, I would just like to take a minute to explain from the Buyers side. I have been buying and selling etopps cards for about 3 years. (without holding hundreds of cards) Cardtarget offered us a site to quickly (one click) without an ebay auction to buy and sell our cards. We would have an account where our money would be kept if we wanted to remove it at any time we could(also one click) I guess thats why we trust mike with our money. I have had no problem with there banking. As far as the cardtarget shares right now I have Basicly transfered my etopps cards into shares of what I consider to be better cards. I only have about $500.00 worth, by investing about 430.00 and if I decide to get out tomorow there are many buyers offers. I would make about 475.00 on a quick sell like this but for many of us this is much better then what we are used to with etopps. Plus in the future we will vote to sell the card and devide it's sale bu the shares and many of us feel the value will be enough to make us a little money. I know it must be hard for most people who are not used to dealing with virtual cards but I just thought i would try to explain a little where were coming from. Also i would like to add that since cardtarget started this project I have gained alot of interest in the lower grade cards and bought some. Thats what brought me to this forum in the first place. My stupid question about my first cracker jack card. I have started a little collection of old cards and am sure I'll buy more. This can't be bad advertising for the vintage card market. I'm sure this type of market is not for everyone but it can be alot of fun for some of us and it really does draw alot of interest in some great cards that many of us have never even looked into before. Thanks!

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Posted By: dennis

i have read the pros of this concept. i just don't get it. i can not get by the fact that anyone would want to own a share of a card? or a card only on an internet site? etopps is a bust. to say that this does not appeal to everyone is an understatement?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...you could have purchased on ebay last week for under $475, i.e., that you could have owned outright, as opposed to virtually.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-CY-YOUNG-PORTRAIT-HOF-CLEVELAND-SGC-30_W0QQitemZ8772434919QQcategoryZ57993QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-WALTER-JOHNSON-PITCHING-SGC-40-VG-HOFer-t-206_W0QQitemZ8776300009QQcategoryZ57993QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-T-206-JOHN-MCGRAW-HOF-SGC-60-EX-5_W0QQitemZ8778493095QQcategoryZ57993QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

Is there any doubt that these cards are not only more fun to own, but also a better investment?

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Posted By: bobbie

Sure that would be nice to own one of them but please also realize I spent the money over the last 5 weeks, Besides those cards made me interested in real vintage cards. At least my option to sell off quickly and buy somthing else on ebay is there. I do this quite a bit. I see somthing I want on ebay and sell enough virtual cards to pay the bill. I just check the items I can make the best deal with and sell them. I don't mean to bash items in hand By any means, i have alot of things. I have a great Mantle BB that I get out and look at quite a bit, I was just trying to show the ability to sell at any time if you need the money or someone posts an offer you like.
I'm sure I'll learn more about the vintage cards and buy more. They are really very cool. I have alot to learn however before i would know what $500 card to buy!

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Posted By: steve f

What's to prevent CT from selling shares of a hijacked scanned card? With them e-cards at least Topps has some history.

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Posted By: bobbie

Realy nothing other then we have the links to where they were purchased and like I said many of us have had thousands of dollars in accounts with them for a long time. I'm sure if you checked there message boards you would find some very large dealers involved with cardtarget for a very long time. They use cardtarget to automacilly buy etopps cards at a price they have preset into the system and then have thousands shipped for sale in there shops and on ebay. Say a card online is worth about $5.00 they put a buy price at 3.50 then someone who wants to sell quick sells to them then they take inhand and sell in there store for sometimes much more.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...your not putting down $500 before doing some research. What I would recommend is finding a vintage set that you like, and then tracking sales of those cards in SGC holders on ebay. You will come to understand the market for those cards, and then can start bidding on them. I would also recommend that you start with lesser dollar cards so that you can acquire a good understanding of what those cards look like in person -- so as to avoid fakes, trim jobs, etc.

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Posted By: bobbie

well I saw somthing to take a chance with on ebay and bought it tonight. When the cards come I'll have to send some good scans and see what people think. I'll only have a few days after they arrive to send them back. I'm kinda worried about them but I guess us virtual card people are used to taking chances and acting on spur of the moment decisions

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Posted By: steve f

cut n paste the auction here for us to have a looksee.

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Posted By: bobbie

Heres the pictures. I tried to checkout a few on the old cardboard site. They looked like nice cards, I can't wait to get them in my hands and check them out.

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Posted By: bobbie

oh by the way the players names are :
Players are: ADRIAN ANSON, CHAS. W. BENNETT, R.L. CARUTHERS, CHAS. W. BENNETT, JAS. H. FOGARTY, MIKE KELLY, JOHN M. WARD, JAMES RYAN, JOHN CLARKSON, VERNON "LEFTY" GOMEZ, FRANK J. "LEFTY" O'DOUL, PEPPER MARTIN, CHRISTOPHER MATHEWSON, ARTHUR FLETCHER, DAVID JONES, "JIM" DELAHANTY, FRANK BAKER, and EDDIE COLLINS

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Posted By: Zach Rice

Sorry to break it to you, but all of those cards are fake aka reprints.

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Posted By: leon

all of them....good luck

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Posted By: steve f

counterfeits

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Posted By: bobbie

you can tell that quickly just from the pictures?

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Posted By: leon

YES

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Posted By: Joann

Anyone else's heart kind of sink as soon as you saw the scans?

You seem pretty decent Bobbie - get them returned, and get some of the real deals. I'd hate to see your enthusiasm dampened at this point. I may be biased like some of the others, but once you actually own a real vintage card it's hard to imagine that anything virtual would be the same.

And yes, people can tell just by looking. How? The beauty of this board is that if you read it long enough you will know how to tell just by looking. After awhile of reading and seeing scans and "listening in" to the experienced collectors comparing real to fake, etc, you just kind of get a feel for it. Then all of a sudden you can start picking out some of them just by pictures.

Tell the seller no dice, and move on to the good stuff!

Joann

Edited to correct accidentally sounding cryptic and cagey the first time.

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Posted By: bobbie

What would you do? This guy is trying to pass them off as real tobacco advertising cards. I have not paid him so maybe I won't. I've never not paid for somthing on ebay and have about 2400 feedback rating, so what could they do?

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Posted By: leon

Just point him to this board and tell him they are fakes and you don't want them....any questions have that seller email me....I will explain further....you should NEVER have to pay for something that you are buying, when it is purported as real, and isn't.....

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Posted By: dstudeba

Don't pay, take your neg, and feel fortunate that you got off lightly.

You have a lot of reading to do on this board, but the best part is it is fun. After watching for a while, you can go back and dip your toe in, but try some PSA, SGC or GAI graded cards first to get a feel for it. If the cards you won were real, there is no way your bid would have picked them up. Even if the auction title was "1978 TORO gas powered lawnmower", if they were real Zach and others would have found them.

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Posted By: Anonymous

would you guys like to see some of his auctions? I feel pretty stupid but there were about 9 or 10 auctions some over $500. The ones with star players etc.

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Posted By: dstudeba

No, we see too many of these auctions already.

Don't feel stupid, just learn from it. There is a lot to learn in this hobby, it really is fun.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

All Fake!

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

This is really unfortunate. The amount of time it took us to determine if those cards were fake could be measured in nanoseconds - not because we are forensic experts, although a couple of us probably are, but just because we have been around the block a few times.

I got back into the hobby as an adult during the year of Fernandomania and Donruss. If I remember right, the 1952 Topps Mantle had just surpassed the insane plateau of $3000(!). I had become friends with a couple of guys who owned a local card shop and ran a monthly show with about 30 dealers. Through them I saw (and held) my first T206, Old Judge and Goudey cards. I waited quite a while to buy any, but when I did, I knew one when I saw one. The internet and grading services have their place, but there is no substitute for experience and knowledge.



My first N172 - $30.