Performance Enhancing Drugs - How Those Implicated Have Impacted Card Collecting

[iwantitiwinit]

I happened to dig out Joe Orlando's book the Top 200 Sportscards in the Hobby today and noticed something really interesting and disappointing. Of the 9 most recent inclusions in the baseball card section 5 have to date been implicated or associated in some way with Performance Enhancing Drugs. In chronological order they are:

1) Roger Clemens - 1984 Fleer Update
2) Mark McGwire - 1985 Topps
3) Greg Maddux - 1987 Donruss
4) Barry Bonds - 1987 Fleer
5) Ken Griffery Jr. - 1989 Upper Deck
6) Sammy Sosa - 1990 Leaf
7) Mike Piazza - 1992 Fleer Update
8) Derek Jeter - 1993 SP
9) Alex Rodriguez - 1994 SP

1 - Guilty, 2 - Guilty, 4 - Guilty (and in my opinion an arrogant self righteous egotistical outcast), 6 - Guilty (no hablo), 9 - Guilty.

Orlando mistakenly states..."this list will inevitably change over time but the majority of the cards featured on the list will be part of the top 200 for generations to come". They should be on a list alright the list of top superstar frauds. Total disgrace. I never realized how many of the perceived greatest players in the game CHEATED.

[LanceRoten]

Being a human being, I feel as though i'm imperfect and in a glass house 24/7 so, doubtful I judge or throw stones. On a side note, if anyone has any high grades of the following and morally feel they can't hold onto the cards any longer LMK:

84 Fleer Update Roger Clemens
85 Donruss Roger Clemens
85 Topps Mark McGwire
all 86 and 87 Bonds
94 SP Alex Rodriguez

Just shoot me a PM

[teetwoohsix]

I'm not sure how much of an impact it had on card collecting, but it had to have an impact on the value of those certain cards. The sad thing is that these players were great without the PED's.

[LanceRoten]

it's had impact. though all of those cards mentioned of the players with the cloud over them still sell. it's not like people are so high and mighty and riding the high horse that they give away gem 10 McGwires or A Rod's. Though from many or most comments you would think people were giving away BGS 9.5 94 SP A Rod's to the first people who pay for shipping. The almighty dollar still rules, though most would like people to believe otherwise.

[stadiumechoes]

Although I agree that the value of the cards of those connected to PEDs have been greatly impacted (although the general knowledge of the mass production of these cards certainly hasn't helped), I am of the opinion that many years from now, the individual accomplishments will be looked at in a better light than they are today. I honestly feel that as time goes by, this era will be known as the steroid (or PED) era, and the feats will not be looked upon with such a "scarlet letter" as they do today.

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by stadiumechoes

I honestly feel that as time goes by, this era will be known as the steroid (or PED) era, and the feats will not be looked upon with such a "scarlet letter" as they do today.

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

[LanceRoten]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

Yeah that James piece is floating around a few sites. I often get ripped, not on here that I know of yet, because i'm a Bonds fan. And have been since the Arizona State days. If you've got a favorite player or two, and legit like the player, it's hard to turn that off regardless of what you hear or read. I choose to look it at like Bill James or , there's another author i forget the name who had some ped thoughts also. I believe Bonds, McGwire, whoever, they're grown men. They didn't take ped's for my benefit, or any fans benefit. They didn't take them to hurt me as a fan, or any fans. They were looking for competitive advantage. It would be extremely naive of me to think that if a Hank Aaron or Willie Mays were in this particular era that they wouldn't have been interested in a little improvement. And to close on Bonds. If we take the years that most assume he was clean, well, he was arguably the second or third best player in the majors from his breakout 1990 - say, what 99? So lets say he dabbled a bit in the steroid game. He went from being on par or better with those (Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc) who were likely using, to being significantly better than anyone for a few years there. He was nearly as good as the users before possibly using, and a few levels above the other users with Ped's. As for the card prices, eh, I like being able to pick up virtually any Bonds graded card I want for considerably less than I would have 6-8 years ago. And the record book says, all time HR King

[bobbvc]

Originally Posted by LanceRoten

I often get ripped, not on here that I know of yet, because i'm a Bonds fan.

I often get ripped too, because I'm a Guinness fan. Hate Bonds and all the other users, not because of their use really, but because they tended to be arrogant, self centered jerks. That's just personal preference. Few cards post 80's were going to have any long term value anyway so the bad pub the druggies got just sped up their card price decline. (Like a speed user who ages 30 years after 5 years of use). The real culprits in the steroid era were the owners. They knew it was happening, and let it, because they needed to build the fan base back up after the missed World Series and work stoppage.

[ls7plus]

I tend to think the "pioneer" proposition will prove to be correct, although I don't think anyone will feel that a direct comparison can be drawn to statistical performance pre-PED and PED. Personally, I used to love to watch Mark McGwire, and despite his inablility to acknowledge that steroids enhanced his HR prowess, there is no question that it did--that 370 foot out becomes a 410 foot homer, with the increased bat speed. However, I believe that McGwire also does have a point when he talks about the credit that should be given to the evolution of his swing. That swing went from rather long and loose to the sweetest, most compact, lightning quick stroke I ever saw. And when he hit them--wow! The scoreboard in Cleveland; high off the scoreboard to the opposite field in Shea! I was at Tiger Stadium for an interleague game in '99, when the Tigers played the Cards, and we got there early for batting practice. Big Mac hit four over the roof in left, including one in left center! Those that only made the upper deck in left, where we were sitting, we're still coming at us like cannon shots, even at the end of their flight, while balls hit by other players just came looping towards us in the same area. We decided we wouldn't want to even try to catch one of McGwire's balls bare-handed! Plus, PED or not, the guy generally carried himself with class. I've got a '92 game-used bat of McGwire's with extremely heavy use that I will probably never part with. I must admit that I am now conflicted about him: that performance in the late '90's amazed all of us who were naive, and now we know it wasn't at all real in the same sense that the accomplishments of players like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, the Babe and Maris were real.

I also liked to watch Bonds, even though by that time everyone knew his performance wasn't legit. It was just that I'd never seen anyone make major league pitching look like slow-pitch softball before. I thought he was such a jerk, but he gave one an idea of what it must have been like to face the Babe or Ted Williams in their primes.

Perhaps a more interesting question: the Mets clubhouse attendant wrote a book wherein he took credit for supplying hundreds of players with 'roids during that time period. What do we do with these guys as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned? Build a cheater's wing? And if we do that, how do we really know who to place where? Pudge Rodriguez is not usually classified as a PED cheater, yet while he was a Tiger, he lost about 26 pounds on a supposed "diet" that he couldn't even attempt to explain to the local news reporters! With those pounds, went his power forever.

Is it just hero to zero, or is there a return trip that's going to be there for these guys? They also DO have some cards that are scarce or even rare enough to have some significant value--both of their Topps Tiffany rookies had only a 5,000 print run, while Big Mac had a Topps refractor commemorating #70 that they only printed 15 of. PSA had graded 7 last time I checked (I haven't submitted mine). Bonds has a 2002 refractor commemorating his #73 in 2001, which I purchased because it is indeed part of baseball history, and I can thus hold that part of the history right in my hands. And A-Roid has a Sportfics Artist's Proof rookie with a print run of maybe 200 max. Food for thought. I have all these cards, and I'm not tossing 'em, regardless of value. For better or worse (on which I remain conflicted), they are still part of the game I treasure so much--I played for many, many years as well as I could, then I watched it, and then I collected it.

Good thread.

Larry

[insidethewrapper]

Talk about today's high production. Many of the cards today are produced in lower numbers than surviving T206's. Demand is the problem of many of today's cards not supply. Many are under the 5000 production with several 1 of 1's.

Could you imagine in the coin hobby, if coins were printed less than 100 or 1 of 1 the prices would be enormous. There are millions of State Quarters and people collect these.

[iwantitiwinit]

In some cases it is true that production of some specialty sets or cards are very limited, however often their appeal is also minimal. What appeal does a 1 of 1 card have when only a single person can own it, especially if it is simply a picture of an existing player. I can simply take a photo of that individual. I can no longer take a picture of Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. These limited edition sets have not survived the test of time, and perhaps more importantly the test of sustained value, T206's have.

[drc]

"I've never seen a less innocent person in my life," Donald Trump on OJ Simpson.

Just made me chuckle when I read that.

[stadiumechoes]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Bill James thinks they will be looked at as pioneers in the future, due to society taking more drugs in general to prolong youth, etc. Find the article if you can, it's a thought provoking read. I hope he's wrong, but wouldn't bet against him.

I will definately look for the article.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

In some cases it is true that production of some specialty sets or cards are very limited, however often their appeal is also minimal. What appeal does a 1 of 1 card have when only a single person can own it, especially if it is simply a picture of an existing player. I can simply take a photo of that individual. I can no longer take a picture of Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. These limited edition sets have not survived the test of time, and perhaps more importantly the test of sustained value, T206's have.

That's an excellent point, and one that's often overlooked in collectibles. Some stuff is too rare to be valuable. There has to be just enough supply that someone can figure it's possible to own the item. After that it's mostly PR creating demand. The Wagner isn't rare, but it is expensive because it hits all the right points - Just rare enough to be difficult, but not nearly impossible, great player, and a great story that plays well in the press wether it's true or not. Now how many of us have cards that are harder to find. How many of us have several cards that are more rare than the Wagner? Probably quite a few. I think I probably have somewhere around 15 -20 tougher cards. And only one is a modern 1 of 1. The whole assortment wouldn't even make a downpayment on a Wagner. They nearly all suffer from being too obscure for most people to care about at all. The 2 prewar ones crossover from sports to non-sports, and at the moment only 2 are known of each. They've been on the BST with very little interest, priced roughly like a VG T206 HOF player. NOT griping, just using them as an example of rare cards that don't have much value because there's no demand.

The PED stuff hasn't affected my collecting aside from making a few cards cheaper. And I'm still not sure that is A PSD thing, or just that people figured out the stuff just isn't that hard to find.

Steve B

[quinnsryche]

I will not myself own any cards of admitted or suspected (beyond a reasonable doubt) steroid/PED users. I also will not allow my 11 yr. old son to own any either. What I WILL do is continually tell him that cheating is unacceptable in any aspect of life (including sports). Hopefully it sticks with him and he never idolizes any of these scumbag drug cheats. Is it just a coincidence that users of PEDS tend to be the biggest PUDS of the era?

[ls7plus]

With regard to Steve B's point, rarity is relative to the amount of collectors seeking the item. Many collect T206; other deep pocket collectors collect iconic items; many collect hall-of-famers and strive for their best cards to the extent $$ permit. Hence, Wagner is rare relative to the number of people who want one. You're right that many members of this board have cards that are rarer than the T206 Wagner in an absolute sense--I can think of at least 5 or 6 pre-war cards that I have that fit that bill right off the top of my head, and there are probably more. And I know with certainty that many board members have collections in that respect that literally dwarf mine--I've seen them here on a continuous basis. But rarity alone has never had a direct correlation to value--condition and significance (or popularity, if you like--I consider popularity a subset of significance) are also necessary factors in the equation. Not too many collect the 1933 Butter Cream set, but a lot of people collect Babe Ruth, and only two or three of the Babe's cards from that set are believed to exist. If a card from that set was a common and that rare, under those circumstances, its value would not be expected to be very high. But because the rarest is the Babe, REA recently sold a VG-Ex example for $111,000.

By analogy, a good example in coins is the 1895 proof Morgan silver from the Philadelphia mint, an issue that was available only in proof, and 880 were struck. Now, we wouldn't consider a card with a surviving print run of 800+ to be rare, but the 1895 [plain, no mintmark, Philadelphia mint] Morgan silver dollar in proof is, because no examples whatsoever were struck for circulation, and many thousands of people collect Morgan silver dollars by date and mintmark. The consequence is that even one in off grade can easily fetch $40,000 or more.

As far as Tony's post is concerned, a very large part of me is in agreement, which is why I am so conflicted about McGwire now, a player I truly loved to watch play. I wouldn't even look at any of his cards for years. But I'm also reluctant now to be so judgmental--I certainly wouldn't want my whole life to be judged based on some of the things I've done, and wouldn't do over again. And younger generations are not nearly as concerned with the tie baseball tradition has to statistics, a tie that the 'roid guys did their best to throw out the window. That's why I think that the pioneer theory might have some future merit.

Best regards,

Larry

[ls7plus]

Does anyone believe that the chemists aren't once again ahead of the testors? Exhibit "A"--Jose Bautista; utility journeyman up to two years ago, and now a slugger to rival the likes of Mantle and Mays in their primes??? 74 homers in his last 2008 at bats preceding 2010, or an average of about 19 per full season; then 64 HR's in just 671 at bats during 2010-2011. This, from a guy who just turned 30 last October. Maybe the Mick's been reincarnated into the Bautista body; or more likely, what looks like a pig, walks like a pig, and is covered with pig feces just like a pig IS a pig! Like he thinks were all born yesterday! Hook him up to a polygraph and let the truth come out!!!

Larry