Shoeless Joe in the Hall?

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Posted By: MVSNYC

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2958708

there is a lot of talk on ESPN.com today about cheaters...(steroids, gambling, fixing games, etc)...

thought this was an interesting article.

do we think all of the controversy surrounding the "steroid era" in baseball will overshadow and seem much worse then what Pete & Joe (supposedly) did? will this help or hinder players like pete rose & shoeless joe get into the HOF?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, taking steroids didn't do McGwire any good. We'll have to see how the Hall reacts when each of these cheaters becomes eligible.

Personally, I think Bonds will make first ballot.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Big difference between cheating and throwing games. I don't like cheating, but I can deal with cheating because it's done to win games. Throwing games is a whole other level of bad that is inexcusable.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't think it will have any effect at all on the gamblers who were booted out, and it shouldn't.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I truly believe that Joe Jackson belongs in the Hall of Fame.

For me, it's not really a matter of guilt or innocence. I can live with the fact that a mortal man made a grave mistake. I can live with baseball banning him for life. I CAN'T live with baseball banning him beyond his life and long into his death.

Selig should do the classy thing and reinstate all of the Black Sox players. Give Buck Weaver's spirit some peace for chrissakes!! And don't do some cheeseball 100 year Black Sox Pardon-Extravaganza...

I can live with Pete Rose being banned for life. He, too, belongs in the Hall though. Upon his death, he should be immediately reinstated and eligible.

I think Hal Chase belongs in the Hall. He apparently IS eligible and was never banned from baseball. Why no ballot appearance since the first couple??

Shawn

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Hal Chase was banned from baseball in 1921 by KM Landis...he had been informally banned since 1918, but Landis made it official.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Shawn, I take it you think wrestling is real too. I don't know about you, but I have a serious problem when the integrity of the outcome of a game is in question. Jackson was a great player but there are grave consequences for making grave mistakes.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Jay,

I will choose to ignore your pointless wrestling comment...

I do understand that grave consequences were then and are now required for game fixing. But unless you are a member of the Spanish Inquisition or kick puppies...I guess I can't fathom what your idea of punishment for Joe should have been.

His life, career, and joy were taken from him for the rest of his life.
Many, many games were fixed by a myriad of characters in the deadball era. Granted, this was on a grander scale, but the punishment should now be over.

Most murderers are released from jail eventually and deemed "forgiven" by society. Sure a few die in prison or are executed, but even then society moves onward.

A lifetime ban was an extremely harsh punishment and, possible, entirely deserved, but NOTHING more. Given the continual moral decline in this society, I have a hard time believing that we as a society can't forgive a gambling mistake after that person is DEAD when rapists, murders, etc roam free around us everyday.

Dan, I haven't been able to find definitive proof he was barred. In the Chase bio, the authors intimated he was never officially banned. Can you give me a source??

Shawn

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

.375 (or thereabouts)(Jackson's average in the 1919 WS)

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Doing a quick search, it seems Chase was never officially banned, but was blacklisted.

"Second, although much is learned about Hal Chase's life and times, I came away feeling that while I knew a great deal more about Hal Chase, I had no greater understanding of the Teflon quality that allowed him to slip through the myriad charges against him. I am still puzzled by the fact that he escaped the "justice" being dispensed by Judge Landis and was never banned from the game for life even though he was blacklisted. To suggest that Landis concluded it wasn't worth the trouble to ban Chase seems out of character for the mercurial Commissioner and showman of the bench."

http://www.haroldseymour.com/article.asp?articleid=43029

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Posted By: Chris Mc

It's O.K. to let drug addicts, wife beaters and worse in the hall. It's like telling the kids, do whatever you want so long as your stats are good and you don't gamble/cheat. It's a shame that Rose and Jackson are not in. IMO

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Posted By: Justin

Even Joe Jackson getting to the hall won't change his legacy. He will still be remembered primarily for his role in the fix. It will never be forgotten, and that is the price of his actions. Everyone dies, but their legacies live on. Joe's legacy was that he was a naive hick, with tremendous ability who conspired to throw the world series.

Plus there is a big difference between being punished by a private organization and serving time for breaking the law.

A private organization can set whatever rules it wants and enforce those rules in anyway it wants provided it doesn't infringe on people's rights in the society. Baseball is not a right.

And the issue with Jackson isn't that he threw the world series(it's debatable, and a high batting average doesn't tell the whole story), so much as he took money from gamblers, knew of the fix, sat in on meetings about the fix, and then didn't tell anyone about it. Ditto Buck Weaver(well not the money part but everything else).

That is why Landis banned him. There is nothing honorable about agreeing to throw a game and not throwing it.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Justin,

I see your angle and do appreciate your argument. I think it's flawed, however. If baseball were a "private" organization...why were the Black Sox tried before a grand jury rather than just an internal investigation. Why is congress involved in the steroids issue?? Why was Pete Rose tried in court?? Landis was a Judge!

Clearly, baseball needs societal law to mete out punishment and maintain a semblance of order. If a player in todays' game were acquitted and NOT proven guilty for a "crime" and subsequently banned for life--he would probably file a lawsuit for at least defamation of character, but most probably millions in damages.

Again, I have no real thoughts on Joe's innocence or guilt, but he is a Hall of Famer.

Shawn

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Posted By: Justin

The problem with the argument that Ty Cobb was a bad guy and shouldn't be in the hall is flawed because, then you have to look at everybody in the hall and assess some rigid standard on who should be in and who should stay out based on how good of a person they are.

Babe Ruth was a whore, John Clarkson killed his wife, Cap Anson was a bigot...ok these guys are the obvious ones, but how about Jackie Robinson being court-martialled, Rollie Fingers not paying his taxes, oh hey Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were banned from baseball because they appeared at casinos, Don Drysdale beaned people, Branch Rickey was misanthropic and unethical. Reggie Jackson didn't sign autographs, Gaylord Perry threw a spitball, Don Sutton has awful hair, Joe Morgan is a horrible broadcaster. It gets ridiculous. If you tried hard enough you could kick everyone out of the hall because of some infraction or another.

Both Jackson and Rose broke clear cut rules regarding the integrity of the game, which is essential to the survival of baseball. That is why they are banned, it is not a moral issue, or an issue of character, so much as it that they broke rules and clearly undermined the public's trust in the game.

And if kids are trying to choose between being gamblers/cheaters and being drug addicts and wife beaters, America has horrible problems.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I'm not sure how you got started with Ty Cobb, but your tongue-in-cheek references to other HOF'ers only reinforces that Jackson should be in.

He was NOT found guilty by anyone except one crusty old man. The entire Black Sox team played a full season AFTER the fact. The public obviously could care less. Not much faith undermined if you ask me...

Again, he technically broke no RULE because he was acquitted. Landis couldn't ban him for legal reasons so, it obviously DID come down to a question of morality and character he chose to focus on and if that is the argument then he is a SHOE in (pardon the pun).

Shawn

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well there seems to be conflicting info about Chase's banishment, but I found more than one website that claims KM Landis officially banned him in 1921 for "Consorting with gamblers".

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/halchase.shtml

But if Harold Seymour says he was never placed on the Permanently Ineligible list then that is the final word.

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Posted By: Justin

The public didn't know that the series was thrown. Rumors were around for the whole 1920 season, but most people dismissed them as hearsay and poor sportsmanship.

The reason again that Joe was banned was because he had knowledge of the fix, took money from gamblers and did not notify anyone about it. That undermines the integrity of the game. If fans knew the games were crooked, baseball would lose alot of its fanbase.

The Black Sox were found not guilty of defrauding the public, which is different from the allegations by Landis. Jackson is very obviously guilty of the things Landis accused him of, and that is why he was banned and isn't in the hall. The hall again is a private organization that can set its own guidelines for membership, it is exclusive, and has chosen to respect MLB's decision to ban Rose, Jackson, Cicotte et al.

I used to be like you, I was a member of the committee to get Shoeless Joe inducted into the hall of fame, but the more you read about the Black Sox scandal the more obvious it becomes that he was guilty. If Landis let the Black Sox play again, the culture of gambling and corruption would have continued to flourish. But by taking drastic measures Landis helped baseball overcome these problems and build the game we know and love today.

I really like Shoeless Joe, and he is infinitely more well known today because he is not in the hall. He would be pretty much forgotten otherwise. Seriously who talks about Bobby Wallace?

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Posted By: jay behrens

As horrible a person as Landis was, if he had been commish instead of Selig, I guarantee you that this whole steroid scandal wouldn't have happened. Mac who have most likely been banned when the andro was found and that would have been the end of the story because anyone else caught with PEDs would be getting banned too.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Steve f

I love Joe as much as anyone, but he doesn't deserve a plaque.

Page 4 Question 4;
http://blackbetsy.com/jjtestimony1920.pdf

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

If Landis were still commissioner today then the superstar players would still be earning about $10,000 year. He banned players for life for holding out on their contracts!

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Posted By: jay behrens

Sounds good to me and hopefully he would have given Scott Boras good old fashion whooping too

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Justin,

I, truly, appreciate your stance.

I am actually NOT a member of any kind of pro-Joe HOF group, but statistically knows he belongs and believe his punishment as well a all Black Socks should not extend past death. I am very familar with his role in the scandal and have a full understanding of others involved. That is not my beef.

If you read my earliest posts, my key argument is Joe was given a lifetime ban which he served and is now DEAD and has, thus, fulfilled his end of the bargain - being banned for LIFE. This banishment should NOT carry over past a persons death. I had (and have) no problem with his punishment. The Hall is really irrelevant to me (especially regarding Joe) as the details and extreme punishment was set into place years before the Hall was a twinkle in someone's eye. Same thing with Pete. When he dies, he should then be pardoned and eligible. Don't deny legions of fans and family the disservice of enshrinement for the sake of a continual humiliation of a man.

The steroids scandal will haunt baseball far more than this ever could.

Shawn

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Posted By: Justin

But Landis also fought against Branch Rickey locking up minor league prospects in his intricate farm system. Landis released dozens of prospects who he deemed either illegally signed, or whose path was stalled in the Cardinals system. He allowed the players to become free agents, thus allowing them a better oppurtunity to make a living.

Seriously Landis had a lot more going for him than you think. Oh and he wasn't the real problem in regards to the color line issue. Owners who wouldn't sign black players were. Plus the color line was in effect for 30+ years before Landis.

He had his faults, but he saved baseball man.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Baseball would have survived without Landis, but I think it's safe to say his iron fist regarding the 1919 series cleaned the game up and made it "on the level" more than it had ever been.

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Posted By: Justin

Really what is the point of enshrining someone who has been dead for so long(I think in general this is true, it's nice the George Davis got in, but what good does it really serve other than to drive up his T206 prices, people who know who he is already know).

It won't change history, and he won't see any benefit. I understand your point, but even if he is elected it won't change the facts of his case and it won't change his legacy. It would be a symbolic gesture, and I am afraid an empty one at that.

And again his story is much greater, more well-known and infinitely more compelling because he didn't get in, than if he did. So him being in the hall really serves no purpose other than to ease the minds of a small population of deadball era baseball fans. Casual fans know who he is because of the scandal, and with that his accomplishments get mentioned too.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It is my understanding that while Chase was never officially banned from baseball he was certainly blacklisted at the end of his career.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

I think anyone not enshrined just because they've been dead a long time would mean no more Veterans Committee...amd some deserving men going shamefully unrecognized for their excellence on the field.

I, also, think that to Joe's fans and especially his family it would mean everything for him to be reinstated and elected as a HOF. If it were your grandfather and you had grown up with the stigma of "gambler" "crook" etc bandied about your relative...you probably wouldn't be so cavalier in your dismissal of the importance of his enshrinement.

His is a compelling story, but Joe was a star. I think Buck Weaver's is the story that is more compelling by the scandal. Joe WAS already great. Buck had mysterious potential...

Shawn

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Interesting debate.

Personally, I do not think Jackson belongs in the Hall. He knew about the fix, took the gamblers' money, and was complicit in the entire conspiracy. While he did hit .375 for the series, and had the only homer, not every game was fixed.
In fact, Jackson hit his home run in a game that the Sox had not agreed to throw. While Jackson was a fantastic hitter and great fielder, his mistakes in 1919 preclude him from entry into the HOF.

What I'd give to see Matty's scorecard from the W/S.

Josh

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Posted By: James Gallo

I think it would be very hard to compare what Jackson and Rose did to what Bonds, Big Mac and all the other steroid heads did.

First off I think both Rose and Jackson belong in the hall of fame because of what they did on the field and those accomplishments could never be taken away from them.

Second I understand the issues around both and they are both guilty, however I will put this out there.

Bonds is likely never to be found guilty in a court, yet public opinion still holds him to be guilty of the crime and he has "paid" for it.

Jackson was found innocent in court and he is still held to be guilty in some peoples minds.

If Bonds gets in why shouldn't Jackson be in.

If you think throwing a game is so bad how is taking a drug to illegally enhance your ability not very similar to throwing a game. How many games did Bonds or McGwire win because they juiced. How is winning a game that you should have lost really that different then missing a catch to lose a game on purpose. IMO this is just as bad.

I think there needs to be some level to which ALL players are held to.

If players in this juiced era are allowed and voted into the Hall of Fame then players like Jackson, Rose and even Chance should also be in. The problem is that Jackson, Rose and Chance, have proven numbers, while the Steroid users really don't.

We don't know if Bonds would have hit 500 HR if he didn't juice, so we really don't have unbiased records for the last 20 years or so.

I would have no problem with almost none of the superstars of the last 10 years getting into the hall ever, but that will never happen. This includes pitchers like Clemens and so forth.

If Selig had even a tiny set of balls he would act on something, but he never does. Baseball is going to be stale until we get a real commissioner who will actually act and not sit behind a desk.

One of the sports shows I listen to said if you told bonds he could use illegal drugs and get into the hall of fame, but be labeled a cheaper or no use the drugs and maybe not get in that he would gladly accept the first choice.

I saw his reaction when he hit that 756 ball and it made me sick. He throws his arms up in the air like he is such a god.

Ahh if only Brady Anderson was still playing so bonds would have some competition for the dumbest player around.

Just my thoughts...

James G



Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I explained why juicing isn't comparable throwing a game. A player juices because he is willing to do anything to win. That doesn't change the integrity of the game. He wants to win. Throwing a game changes the integrity of the game. The player is trying to lose a game, that is why it is far worse than juicing.

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Before anyone seriously considers Jackson or Rose as Hall of Fame material, I ask them to educate themselves a bit.

First, read, The Fix is In, A History of Baseball Gambling and Game Fixing Scandals, by Daniel Ginsburg.

Then read The Beer And Whiskey League, by David Nemec.

Then read The Politics of Glory, by Bill James. The 1994 edition is the better one.


After that, consider the Dowd Report, you can Google and find the report and the exhibits.


Gambling was the ultimate evil for baseball. Look at what is likely with the NBA referee mess. He owes the gamblers money, does he change his calls for them to lessen his debt??? Gambling isn't like murder, drug dealing, cocaine, steroids, or anything else, when it comes to how it affects professional baseball. If you've read those books and understand the roots of the game, you'll then see that Joe and Pete were great players, fierce competitors, winners... players who do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

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Posted By: dennis

joe jackson's legacy is that he is NOT in the baseball hall of fame. if he were (and he never will be) he would not have the fame and great popularity he has attained today.let's pretend he died in 1918 and was elected to the hall,he would be about as famous/popular as addie joss,who did not cheat and was a great pitcher! this love of joe has been created in the last 20 years. most fans who followed the game back then thought of him and his teamates as cheats/crooks, why ,because that is what they were. it is a popular cause to believe joe jackson belongs in the hall of fame. he does not. remember O J Simpson was also found not guilty in a court of law.

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Posted By: PAS

Have you read Bill James' savage critique of the Dowd Report? I think it's in his latest Abstract. Interesting stuff. I am not immersed enough in the details to really assess what he says, but at a superficial level it is pretty persuasive.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I would have to agree that using steroids is not as bad -- not nearly as bad -- as fixing games, especially WS games.