Card doctoring...

[DeanH3]

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument. Those who are named would obviously deny the accusation and we'd go round and round. Jeff L. warned us of Mastro and he denied everything until he got busted by the Feds. Might make for an epic net54 thread though.

Not to hi-jack your thread as this might be a little off target, but pertains to card doctoring. I've wondered about the time line of progression of the sophistication of alterations. What kind of alterations were being done 20, 15, 10 years ago vs 5 years up to current techniques? Where alterations much "simpler" so to speaker 15 years ago which made them "easier" to detect? Could that mean earlier graded cards actually being less likely to have some kind of alteration due to the types of alterations being done at that time easier to detect? Could be a totally naive thought, but a thought popped into my head.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument. Those who are named would obviously deny the accusation and we'd go round and round. Jeff L. warned us of Mastro and he denied everything until he got busted by the Feds. Might make for an epic net54 thread though.

Not to hi-jack your thread as this might be a little off target, but pertains to card doctoring. I've wondered about the time line of progression of the sophistication of alterations. What kind of alterations were being done 20, 15, 10 years ago vs 5 years up to current techniques? Where alterations much "simpler" so to speaker 15 years ago which made them "easier" to detect? Could that mean earlier graded cards actually being less likely to have some kind of alteration due to the types of alterations being done at that time easier to detect? Could be a totally naive thought, but a thought popped into my head.

Dean others would know the answer better than I do. I suspect that since we're only talking about cardboard, this isn't an evolving science to any significant extent. The famous VCBC 7 article from 1996 quotes Dan Desmond as saying good alteration is undetectable, and even if that is not the case, I suspect part of the problem is that for your 8 or 15 or 25 dollar fee you aren't buying a crime lab, you are buying a quick look. I think the TPGs are very good for the most part at what they do, but with a number of motivated and capable card doctors, and not much time or technology to review, and human error, you are going to get your fair share of altered cards that get through the process, even if you don't buy a more nefarious theory of TPG.

PS One reason the very early grades might be more reliable even if more lax numerically is that there were so many more raw cards to send in for the first time. So many submissions now are stuff being recycled. But again I don't really know.

[Throttlesteer]

You're handcuffed in a way. The internet has brought accessibility to cards you probably wouldn't be able to find otherwise. The ability to identify alterations, prior to purchase, is impossible without having the card in hand. It doesn't matter if it's encapsulated or raw; Your chances of getting duped certainly go up if you buy raw from an unknown source. But, some of the more respected names still make mistakes. They turn an awful lot of cards in a short period time and, like many, also trust the grade without further examination. Does it make sense for sellers to break out the eye loupe for every graded card they sell? I don't like the doctoring any more than anyone else. But, it's hard to make a case against someone without firsthand proof, as Leon pointed out. It would be irresponsible to "out" someone and ruin a good reputation, simply because a single card graded by a respected grader ended up being altered. Just my two centavos.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Unless you had that incontrovertible evidence, naming names would only get you into an argument.

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Many of us have provided concrete examples (before and after pics) of cards slabbed by the TPA's - one of my examples showed the same altered card slabbed and re-slabbed by multiple TPA's as an experiment (not mine) to see what they could get away with. The answer was: 'anything'.

The result of my posting was that I was labeled a trouble-maker and basically told to shut up by more than one Net54 member. As long as there is money to be made, none of those who are profiting want to hear about it. Who's profiting? Most of those who collect slabbed cards.

The same is true on the autograph side, which is why you will see autograph experts going after the low-hanging fruit (blatant forgers who set up their own TPA's, which none of us profit through) and leaving the big TPA's alone. As long as the money keeps flowing everyone is happy.

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

Will never work. TPAs will Consider grading for commons, diluting the grading populations, and "prove" that less than 1% are altered. Then all slabs will say the grade is accurate with 1% margin of error. Kinda understood already since they do have a guarantee reserve on their financial statements.

Just like the law passed some years ago that certain companies must give employees 90-days notice if there may be a plant closure. Since then all employee paychecks give notice that there may be a plant closure.

[drcy]

I know it would likely never happen, but duly note that I said put the margin of error on the label, not a different number. The 1% example you use isn't the margin of error, it's a different calculation. That someone calls his dog a cat doesn't make it a cat.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by drcy

As I said, if a rule was instituted that the grading margin of error had to included next to the grade on the label, the card owners would protest far more than the graders. It's known as "protecting their investment."

That's rich. "Grading margin of error" would mean that if I send in a 6 it comes back a 5.5 or 5 and that's okay. It means that if a big auction house or a popular dealer sends in a 6, it comes back as a 7 and that's okay.

But I wasn't referring to margin of error in grading. I was referring to ignoring doctoring of cards for some submitters.

[rainier2004]

How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

How about we just stop trusting flips and make educated decisions for ourselves? It all comes down to capitalism in the end...I for one try to avoid doctored cards and whether its graded or not matters very little in my assessment.

I would turn this around and say for many folks, particularly newer collectors as I mentioned, their attitude is, "whether it's altered or not matters very little in my assessment."

When I see the praise being lavished on people I know to be card doctors or who are outlets for card doctors, because they deliver a card timely, it makes me kinda sick sometimes. Well, that's overstating it, but still.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would turn this around and say for many folks, particularly newer collectors as I mentioned, their attitude is, "whether it's altered or not matters very little in my assessment."

When I see the praise being lavished on people I know to be card doctors or who are outlets for card doctors, because they deliver a card timely, it makes me kinda sick sometimes. Well, that's overstating it, but still.

Peter, I think only time in the hobby can fix that. I know I have spent countless hours listening to stories. There are more altered cards in high grade holders than anyone wants to admit. If you collect high grade pre-war you should be aware you probably have some altered cards (*in TPG holders). It is a fact. But hey, that card doctor ships fast!!