E98 Old Put reprint

[caramelcard]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1182

Did one of you guys win this reprint?

If so, let's discuss it after you receive it.

Thanks.

Rob

[barrysloate]

Who in the world is reprinting these things?

[sb1]

There seem to be a couple of sellers(maybe one and the same) taking scans of real cards, overlaying them on a toploader and selling them as reprints. I am not sure what you receive, but I am certain it's not a real card and or a steal of a deal. Just a copy of the real item I imagine. They are not reprints, just copies.

Scott

[Jim VB]

Same guy. Different item.

http://cgi.ebay.com/t206-Ty-Cobb-Red...mZ180469123184


Hey Ted! Here's your T206 Red Cobb with a red Hindu back!

[D. Broughman]

Did you notice in his description of the Wagner he has Mantle as the player. Look for a fake Mantle next.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by D. Broughman

Did you notice in his description of the Wagner he has Mantle as the player. Look for a fake Mantle next.

Fake Mantle? - check!

http://cgi.ebay.com/1952-Mickey-Mant...mZ180469250666

[tiger8mush]

some of the reprints are getting pretty good to the point where the only way you can tell its a reprint (when looking at it online) is that the font at the bottom front of the card is a little off. If these people can get the rest of the card so exact, why aren't they scanning the font so that it too is exact?

Hopefully one can tell when holding the card that it is a reprint, such as the paper feels different or a black light makes it fluoresce. Otherwise it'll be difficult for the average collector to tell the difference.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

some of the reprints are getting pretty good to the point where the only way you can tell its a reprint (when looking at it online) is that the font at the bottom front of the card is a little off.

Rob, I agree, it's getting a little scary how good these reprints are becoming. Knowledge is the key though, knowing which backs don't appear with certain cards is something the forgers haven't zeroed in on yet.
That Wagner Old Put fake shows how easy it is to come up with an Old Put looking back stamp. Jeez, what's next, fake overprinted E94s?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tbob

Rob, I agree, it's getting a little scary how good these reprints are becoming. Knowledge is the key though, knowing which backs don't appear with certain cards is something the forgers haven't zeroed in on yet.
That Wagner Old Put fake shows how easy it is to come up with an Old Put looking back stamp. Jeez, what's next, fake overprinted E94s?

Tbob- I own a fake E94 overprint. It was mistakenly encapsulated by SGC. Upon review they bought it from the owner, or compensated the owner, and then I ended up buying it with full disclosure. It's not a very good reprint but I will leave it at that. As someone mentioned earlier it's best to keep some things off of the board, or at least not make every nuance too known....
I am very aware that certain scammers read this board almost every day. regards

[sb1]

This card in the scan is not a reprint, it is a scan of a real E98 Wagner OLD PUT, which you will not receive. You will get a "copy" of it. There is a difference between copy and reprint. None of these cards being sold are reprinted they are just stolen online images used to sell copies on ebay.

Scott

[caramelcard]

Thanks Scott,

Good point and thanks for clarifying. I haven't seen a lot of this. So you're saying the scan is just a scan of the real deal and the buyer is going to receive something that is an obvious and blatant color copy?

This is a different approach from the usual scammer. He says it's the "exact card" pictured, but then uses the word "reprint" because I guess he feels that it covers his butt.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but highly unlikely without someone spending a ton of cash that there's gonna be a reprinted card where the stamp looks as good as this one, not to mention the font and the rest of the card.

The card Leon mentioned before was not close to the real overprints and laughable that the all powerful SGC missed it.

Rob

[dm_sportscards]

I won this card to see what I would get. I have collected e98's for the last couple of years, the Chance was the first card my father gave me (hence the reason I collect e98). Thought it would be neat to have an old put card in the collection, even if it is fake.

[Tim Kindler]

Scott is correct. This is not a reprint or a fake E98 Old Put Back. It is simply a scan of my card. I won the only E98 Wagner with an Old Put Stamp in the 2007 REA auction. You can see a picture of the back of my Wagner on the SGC Registry with the rest of my Old Put Backs or go into REAs Archives. The scary thing is how real it looks. I know it is a scan of my card because of the chip above Wagner's head and the crease in the lower left bottom. Also, the Old Put Stamp is in the exact position as mine on the back, so we know it is a scan, not a fake stamp which was stamped on a reprint.

Here is my question? DM Sportscards, how thick is it? Is it on cardboard the thickness of a real E98? The back of it has been exagerated in its staining. My Wagner, the real one, is much whiter/cleaner on the back. It doesn't have a stain line where the crease is on the lower corner.

This is the reason why I had a thread going last May where we tried to document all existing Old Put Backs in existence. I tried to get a scan of all the existing ones out there as well. This will help all of us, buyers, sellers, auction houses, grading companies, etc. authenticate real E98s with an Old Put back. As I stated in that thread, I'm not saying that when one pops up in the future it is a fake, but it will have to be highly scrutinized without the provenance of its previous documentation.

This is where we left off with the thread. The names/owners of the cards are on the previous thread therefore, I put them on this post. If you have any to add or scans please provide:

5 Blues with an Old Put back
1. Clarke Leon's
2. Dooin Mine, I purchased from Rob A. this summer.
3. Dooin Collector who wishes to be anonymous
4. Kling Collector who wished to be anonymous


14 Reds with an Old Put back
1. Chance On the SGC Registry
2. Cobb Mine SGC 40 Bought REA 2009
3. Wagner Mine SGC 30 Bought REA 2007
4. Brown Mine SGC 30 Bought from Toby Peterson 2007, from H & S 2007
5. Brown Collector who wishes to be anonymous
6. McGraw Mine SGC 30 Bought 19th Century Only 2009, Used to be Rob
Adesso's I believe
7. Young Mine SGC 30 Bought from Scott Brockelman 2008
8. Collins Mine PSA 2 Bought from Mastro 2008
9. Bresnahan Leon's
10. Myers I saw it in a Festberg Auction around 2000 I think.
11. Clarke It was TBOB's but it was lost in shipping. (Sorry to bring that
up again Bob) If it comes up again, IT IS BOB's!
12. Vaughn Board member gabinus
13. Mack Bruce Babcock's
14. Mullin Board member Hal Kaplan provided a scan of it, but he stated
that it is not his card.

Well, that is 18 total confirmed. Of course there are probably more out there, but these are the ones our forum members have confirmed.

[barrysloate]

Tim- you might want to email the seller and ask him why he feels he has the right to steal your scan and then sell it as some kind of reprint. This is a bad trend that should be stopped.

[Tim Kindler]

Barry,
I totally agree with you that this is not a good thing happening in our hobby.
It is pretty sad. But I guess it has been going on for years. When I was a kid I used to get reprints of the classic cards in my elementary book orders that were reprints. Some company was making money of those images then.
The only difference here I guess, is that this is a one-of-a-kind which can be easily seen through the flaws on the card, not just a generic image of a classic card.

But really, what can I do about it? Yes it is my card, but the image is out there in cyberspace and on places like REAs site. I own the card, but do I own the image? Does anyone know what really can be done, if anything?

At least he said it was a reprint. Some Richard Cranium with the ID bigbadgodofwar1 on iOFFER was trying to sell a reprint of my card for $15,000. Of course after I confronted him with an email he put out there in cyberspace that I was threatening him and that I needed to back off, even though I never saw the card again on iOffer.

Tim Kindler

[barrysloate]

You're right Tim, there probably is little you can do. Even if he agrees to stop selling it, there are hundreds of others who will do the same thing.

[Kawika]

Richard Cranium. Good one. Hadn't heard it before. Reminded me of General Scheisskopf in Catch-22. The esteemed Rawoysterman has been doing the same thing with some of my cards as Tim's E98 guy. I posted about it last month (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=119646). No laws broken as far as I know, just a little more douchebaggery in a hobby lousy with it already.

[Leon]

I think the "other one" I was thinking of, on the Blue Old Puts, were those two that were documented before, the Kling and Dooin....which a board member sent me years ago and then again last time we were talking about it. So, you can edit that part of the blues. I don't think I have known of any besides those 2 and my 1...other than what you documented. I am sure there are more out there....

[iggyman]

Originally Posted by dm_sportscards

I won this card to see what I would get. I have collected e98's for the last couple of years, the Chance was the first card my father gave me (hence the reason I collect e98). Thought it would be neat to have an old put card in the collection, even if it is fake.

ARGH!!! Heaven knows I'm "nobody" to tell "anybody" on this planet (or any other planet) what to do with their money. But GOSH DARN FREAKING FRACKING @#$%@$@ SON-OF-A-HUMPT!!!!! Why buy anything from these peddlers of phoney baloney??? If you want an E98 CHANCE with an OLD PUT back and an upside down Cy Young ghost image. Then just make one for youself!!! It doesn't take alot of photoshop skills and the crappy Xerox copier at work will do.

Hey Bruce, I have a business idea for you. Start a website that will create authentic looking fake cards on request. Drive a stake through the heart of the "Rawoysterman" of the world. Heck, I will pay a membership fee just to see that.

You want a real looking "1915 M101-5 Babe Ruth" card to impress your mistress. Sure, I'll create one......that will be $79 bucks please. It got lost in the mail, no problemo.

Lovely Day!!!

[Wesley]

Originally Posted by Leon

Tbob- I own a fake E94 overprint. It was mistakenly encapsulated by SGC. Upon review they bought it from the owner, or compensated the owner, and then I ended up buying it with full disclosure. It's not a very good reprint but I will leave it at that. As someone mentioned earlier it's best to keep some things off of the board, or at least not make every nuance too known....
I am very aware that certain scammers read this board almost every day. regards

Hi Leon,
If this is the one that was on the BST, I seem to recall that the fake one was encapsulated by SGC but used a different font than the real one.

Is there any way you can show scans of both the real overprint and the fake one?
Thank you,
Wes

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Wesley

Hi Leon,
If this is the one that was on the BST, I seem to recall that the fake one was encapsulated by SGC but used a different font than the real one.

Is there any way you can show scans of both the real overprint and the fake one?
Thank you,
Wes

Hi Wes,
Yes, it is the same one. They are in my safe deposit box (even the fake one) as they are all together in a group, so I can't really show them right now. Suffice it to say it took me less than 1 second when seeing the fake one, for my heart to drop to my stomach. With all of the folks saying it's so easy to fake them I would say not much has gotten by. And remember, the most experienced collectors and auctioneers in the hobby have found these types of overprints in very original, unsearched collections. For anyone to say they are all fakes would be idiocy, imho....

[Wesley]

I have not heard anyone say all E94 overprints are fakes.

Still, it is scary to a fake overprint get past the graders at SGC.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Wesley

I have not heard anyone say all E94 overprints are fakes.

Still, it is scary to a fake overprint get past the graders at SGC.

There are only a few people that question ALL of the overprints. The main one was never allowed to be on this (new) board nor will he be.

As for the fake getting past SGC...I agree. They admittedly made a mistake and didn't do the necessary up front leg work on that one. They are human. I believe they have put steps in place so that particular type of mistake won't happen again.

[Smokey Joe]

Scan of fake overprint...