Commy Comiskey 1887 Old Judge PSA 2 (MK)

[Zone91]

Nice card (looks better than a 2 I guess the mark makes it a 2) of a well know hall of fame player. I think he was the coach of the team that made the baseball scandal in 1919 and a player before that based on what I have read...correct me if I am wrong.

Please do not worry this will be my ONLY post for today!!!

Link:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/310642180038?...84.m1497.l2649

[AMBST95]

Comiskey owned the White Sox in 1919.

[Zone91]

AMBST95

So he was the owner I guess that makes more sens I imagine he was been super cheap with salaries hence the gambling scandal.

[Sean]

Charles Comiskey was the owner of that team (1919 White Sox). His low pay and insulting treatment of his players contributed greatly to their decision to take bribes to deliberately lose the 1919 World Series.

There was a good movie about them about 25 years ago-Eight Men Out. I'm not sure how factually accurate it is, but it is entertaining and gives a pretty good account of what went on.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Nice card (looks better than a 2 I guess the mark makes it a 2) of a well know hall of fame player. I think he was the coach of the team that made the baseball scandal in 1919 and a player before that based on what I have read...correct me if I am wrong.

Please do not worry this will be my ONLY post for today!!!

Link:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/310642180038?...84.m1497.l2649

You may not be Peter Chao, but you do one heck of an impression of him.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Sean

Charles Comiskey was the owner of that team (1919 White Sox). His low pay and insulting treatment of his players contributed greatly to their decision to take bribes to deliberately lose the 1919 World Series.

There was a good movie about them about 25 years ago-Eight Men Out. I'm not sure how factually accurate it is, but it is entertaining and gives a pretty good account of what went on.

Your point about Eight Men Out is well taken. This Shoeless Joe Jackson book is also an amazing read for understanding the dynamics of the scandal and its ramifications. This book really takes the halo off Shoeless Joe's head.

According to the book, Comiskey actively covered up the scandal because he did not want to hurt his attendance. Meanwhile, the players continued throwing games into the 1920 season, either because they were being blackmailed or because they were just looking for some easy money.

http://www.amazon.com/Shoeless-The-L...ss+joe+jackson

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

Your point about Eight Men Out is well taken. This Shoeless Joe Jackson book is also an amazing read for understanding the dynamics of the scandal and its ramifications. This book really takes the halo off Shoeless Joe's head.

According to the book, Comiskey actively covered up the scandal because he did not want to hurt his attendance. Meanwhile, the players continued throwing games into the 1920 season, either because they were being blackmailed or because they were just looking for some easy money.

http://www.amazon.com/Shoeless-The-L...ss+joe+jackson

I read another good book on the scandal about 15 years ago: Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball. The author apologized way too much for Joe's actions, but it included a copy of Joe's grand jury testimony.
Joe was asked by the D.A. whether he hit, fielded, ran the bases, etc. with the intent to win at all times, and each time Joe answered that yes, he did.
About 5 pages later Joe was asked if he took part in a meeting with gamblers in which throwing the Series was discussed. Joe replied that he did. He was asked if he was promised money to throw the Series. Joe said that he was promised $10,000, but that he only received $5000. "We got the screw" was his exact quote.
Jackson appeared to believe he hadn't done anything wrong because, although he took the bribe and conspired to lose, he had actually played to win, making him either really dumb or really naive IMHO.

[Zone91]

Is the Comiskey a popular card in the Old Judge set or just a regular guy?

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Is the Comiskey a popular card in the Old Judge set or just a regular guy?

Are you really asking if a HOFer is the same as a regular guy?

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Sean

I read another good book on the scandal about 15 years ago: Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball. The author apologized way too much for Joe's actions, but it included a copy of Joe's grand jury testimony.
Joe was asked by the D.A. whether he hit, fielded, ran the bases, etc. with the intent to win at all times, and each time Joe answered that yes, he did.
About 5 pages later Joe was asked if he took part in a meeting with gamblers in which throwing the Series was discussed. Joe replied that he did. He was asked if he was promised money to throw the Series. Joe said that he was promised $10,000, but that he only received $5000. "We got the screw" was his exact quote.
Jackson appeared to believe he hadn't done anything wrong because, although he took the bribe and conspired to lose, he had actually played to win, making him either really dumb or really naive IMHO.

I am familiar with the book you mentioned. I have not read it, but that was one of the choices I looked at when I was looking for a Shoeless Joe book. I ultimately went with the book I did because the reviews talked continually about how the David Fleitz book goes down a far different road than Eight Men Out or Field of Dreams in that it doesn't paint Shoeless Joe as a saint or a martyr, but provides a lot more balanced profile of the man's positives and negatives.

One of the points the Fleitz book really drove home was that Shoeless Joe may have been an illiterate country boy, but he definitely understood what money was and was motivated by such a fact. The grand jury testimony of Jackson that susbsequently disappeared always seems very damning. A lot of Shoeless Joe books and movies simply gloss over that fact.

[Zone91]

bn2cardz

Yes because they say he was a so so ball player with a batting average of only .264 and 1530 hits....to me that does not seem like much compared to say a modern player like Derek Jeter with over 3000 hits and a much better bating average. I was just wondering.

[Zone91]

So is a batting average of .264 and 1530 hits good stats for players back in his day? I may be wrong when comparing to today's players.

Or is he better known because of the 1919 scandal?

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by Zone91

So is a batting average of .264 and 1530 hits good stats for players back in his day? I may be wrong when comparing to today's players.

Or is he better known because of the 1919 scandal?

He is most known for the 1919 Black Sox scandal, and that permanently tarnished his image. But he is in the HoF because he also had 10 years as a manager and 30 years as an owner. Between his playing career, managing and owning, he had 50 years in the game. Only a handful of people can say that.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Zone91

bn2cardz

and a much better bating average.

I'd say your bating average is growing with every post.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Zone91

bn2cardz

Yes because they say he was a so so ball player with a batting average of only .264 and 1530 hits....to me that does not seem like much compared to say a modern player like Derek Jeter with over 3000 hits and a much better bating average. I was just wondering.

Originally Posted by Zone91

So is a batting average of .264 and 1530 hits good stats for players back in his day? I may be wrong when comparing to today's players.

Or is he better known because of the 1919 scandal?

I am sorry but there is so much information that can be found about the history of the game that it seems lazy to just come here and ask if such an influential person in MLB history is worth more than an average person.

It is like asking about Connie Mack's cards values or why Branch Rickey's Cracker Jack card is worth more.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/8fbc6b31

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'd say your bating average is growing with every post.

You overestimate, I am sure....

[Zone91]

Leon

I kept the same figures....Thanks guys appreciate the input on this player...50 years in a career anywhere is a big thing so now I understand why he is a hall of fame player.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Are you really asking if a HOFer is the same as a regular guy?

I hear he was sort of a regular guy - if you asked him for money, he generally said "no". He enjoyed a good meal, he liked to go to baseball games.

Oh yeah, and he had two major league baseball parks named after him.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I hear he was sort of a regular guy - if you asked him for money, he generally said "no". He enjoyed a good meal, he liked to go to baseball games.

Oh yeah, and he had two major league baseball parks named after him.

But the real question is- "was he on Twitter?" ....

[Zone91]

Runscott

I guess that would help a lot having 2 baseball parks in his name. Thanks.

[jcmtiger]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

You may not be Peter Chao, but you do one heck of an impression of him.

+1

Joe

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Leon
...50 years in a career anywhere is a big thing so now I understand why he is a hall of fame player.

Originally Posted by Zone91

Runscott

I guess that would help a lot having 2 baseball parks in his name. Thanks.

You really are not wanting to put in the time to do the research yourself are you? Did you bother reading the link I provided you with? You are trying to simplify his inclusion into the hall of fame without fully understanding the impact he made on the game.

[Zone91]

bn2cardz

Yes I am reading up on this player and I understand he did a lot for the game of baseball, maybe I do not see the whole picture yet but yes I am reading up on him myself (I do not own a specific book about this player).

I purchased about 10 baseball books in the last 2 weeks and learning a lot. Finished the books on Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth and Christy Mathewson (Learned he died later in life from complications from the war effort...chemical weapons) and now reading about Walter Johnson then it will be Hugh Duffy. I also read the book called T206 The Monster.

Looking forward to reading Cap Anson's book.

Please do not say I am not doing my own work I simply have yet to get to reading in detail about this specific player.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Zone91

bn2cardz

Yes I am reading up on this player and I understand he did a lot for the game of baseball, maybe I do not see the whole picture yet but yes I am reading up on him myself (I do not own a specific book about this player).

I purchased about 10 baseball books in the last 2 weeks and learning a lot. Finished the books on Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth and Christy Mathewson (Learned he died later in life from complications from the war effort...chemical weapons) and now reading about Walter Johnson then it will be Hugh Duffy. I also read the book called T206 The Monster.

Looking forward to reading Cap Anson's book.

Please do not say I am not doing my own work I simply have yet to get to reading in detail about this specific player.

Adrian I commend you on your enthusiasm and I'm impressed with the number of books you have read in the last two weeks.

I've been reading Crazy '08 since Christmas! Half way thru it..... I usually muster about 2 paragraphs each night before I konk out.

It's been interesting to follow your journey the last couple of weeks or so. I don't recall anyone yet giving you the advice "it's a marathon, not a sprint". That advice is usually given to people who are chasing the monster, but I think it applies to alot of things.

Tony

[Zone91]

tonyo

I appreciate your comment very much!!! I am use to reading a lot but before baseball it was mostly science books (the last 10 years or so of my life I would read about 1-2 books a week and the long long books maybe 1 a month).

I would say I read a minimum of 50 books a year now my OCD (Obsesive compulsive disorder) has been focused on the history of baseball. I truly love reading and learning.

[tonyo]

Originally Posted by Zone91

tonyo

I appreciate your comment very much!!! I am use to reading a lot but before baseball it was mostly science books (the last 10 years or so of my life I would read about 1-2 books a week and the long long books maybe 1 a month).

I would say I read a minimum of 50 books a year now my OCD (Obsesive compulsive disorder) has been focused on the history of baseball. I truly love reading and learning.

One book I read (more quickly than Crazy '08) when I started collecting pre-war is "The Celebrant" - by recommendation of the board.

Also, and I think someone has suggested this to you, The Glory of Their Times - both the book and the audio version.


Take it easy....

Tony

[Zone91]

tonyo

I have ordered the glory of their times and I will also look into the other one. I love knowing there is SO much to learn it is great for my mind.

[AMBST95]

Zone,

It's just kind of weird for someone to not know much about baseball history on a forum developed for hardcore baseball card collectors. I too would recommend using google for a lot of the basic historical questions.

I don't discourage questions about cards, like your initial question of did anyone win this card, but adding a reason to know why is helpful. Do you think the pricing is unfair on this because VCP shows XYZ? Do you feel it was misgraded and why? Just asking if someone won one of a million cards on eBay really adds little to the conversation.

Then comparing his playing stats to Jeter's and basing this on his hall of fame credentials shows a real lack of knowledge of the game AND the ability to find simple answers on the internet. You don't need to be a Comiskey expert to learn why he was inducted in to the hall in 5 minutes with a web browser.

Again, I feel discussion on the cards is great. My advice to you would be to do the cursory research first, then ask your question. Otherwise, you're going to get eaten alive on these forums by some of the more senior and knowledgable members. I think the issue has not been the number of new posts, but their lack of substance at times.

I hope the advice helps and I wish you the best in your collecting,

Ambst95

[Zone91]

AMBST95

Just started liking baseball last year when I turned 32 (I mean the whole world knows about Mickey Mantle: 536 home runs and Babe Ruth: 714 home runs....but not Tris Speaker, Tim Keefe or Hugh Duffy for example) I knew all the names of the famous players from 1909 onward but never ever learned the ones before that date....here in Canada it is ALL about hockey unless you live in Toronto...where I live no one talks about baseball at all never and that is why I know nothing about the golden age of the game. I only compare using new players because I have NO idea what good stats looked like back in those days.

Here in Canada 99% of the time when you start talking about baseball people simply just change subjects after a few minutes.

If you want to talk hockey then I know all the stats by heart almost of every player since 1952. I watch hockey almost every day (since 1989) and know a lot about that sport.

You guys have your national sport and us ours....but I was getting tired of hockey and getting a bit older I was able to actually watch a whole baseball game without getting bored or changing channels.

As far as my question goes in my research this card last sold for double what it just sold for the EXACT same card so it made me wonder maybe someone knew more about the player at double the price than it's new owner.

[Zone91]

AMBST95

People in Canada again 99% do not even know anything about hockey before 1952 so imagine their knowledge of baseball. Most people do not even know that hockey trophies take their names from hockey players in the early 1900's that actually played hockey in the NHL.

[Dto7]

Here are some interviews of players from 1915 -1940 made by Dr. Eugene Murdock from 1973-1987 on tape. Not the greatest sound but they are free at the Cleveland Library.

Baseball interviews on tape

[Zone91]

Dto7

Thanks!!

[AMBST95]

Originally Posted by Zone91

AMBST95

Just started liking baseball last year when I turned 32 (I mean the whole world knows about Mickey Mantle: 536 home runs and Babe Ruth: 714 home runs....but not Tris Speaker, Tim Keefe or Hugh Duffy for example) I knew all the names of the famous players from 1909 onward but never ever learned the ones before that date....here in Canada it is ALL about hockey unless you live in Toronto...where I live no one talks about baseball at all never and that is why I know nothing about the golden age of the game. I only compare using new players because I have NO idea what good stats looked like back in those days.

Here in Canada 99% of the time when you start talking about baseball people simply just change subjects after a few minutes.

If you want to talk hockey then I know all the stats by heart almost of every player since 1952. I watch hockey almost every day (since 1989) and know a lot about that sport.

You guys have your national sport and us ours....but I was getting tired of hockey and getting a bit older I was able to actually watch a whole baseball game without getting bored or changing channels.

As far as my question goes in my research this card last sold for double what it just sold for the EXACT same card so it made me wonder maybe someone knew more about the player at double the price than it's new owner.

I think you hit on it right there. If you had included the pricing info on your initial post and your question about it, you probably wouldn't have caught any or as much bull from the others.

I am a hockey fan and root for the Penguins. I went to school in Pittsburgh in the dark years before Lemieux took ownership, tanked a season, and got us Crosby. I know very little of hockey history, buy find it to be the best pro sport to watch live.

As the earlier poster said, try to enjoy the ride. It's a lot to learn. Have you ever watched Ken Burns's documentary entitled Baseball? If you want a good lesson on the history of the game, I'd highly suggest it. It's an 18 1/2 hr history of the game that should help bring you up to speed.

[Matthew H]

Comiskey's Old Judge cards don't seem to be as popular as some other HOFers. There seems to be plenty of them available, by OJ standards. I also don't know of any specific Comiskey collectors, although I'm sure they're out there... He doesn't seem to be one of the more popular HOFers to collect, regardless of his contribution to the game. With that being said, the price seemed about right for a faded, not so widely collected player. It was definitely more than I would pay for that particular example.

[Zone91]

Matthew H

I know the EXACT same card sold for 1050$ in 2009 same MK.

Link:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...791&grade=auth


That is what I was wondering if the new buyer got a really good deal or did the previous buyer know a lot more about this player and appreciated him more...I guess the answer would most likely be yes. Any how I was wondering why such a price change on the very same card.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Zone91

If you want to talk hockey then I know all the stats by heart almost of every player since 1952. I watch hockey almost every day (since 1989) and know a lot about that sport.

You guys have your national sport and us ours....but I was getting tired of hockey and getting a bit older I was able to actually watch a whole baseball game without getting bored or changing channels.

do you think the b's getting jagr at the trading deadline is enough offense to knock off the pens? or is the pens just too strong all-around? maybe their achilles the goaltending will rear its ugly head in the playoffs?

[Zone91]

chaddurbin

Crosby will be weak for little while eating threw a straw he will lose a lot of muscle and power....if Malkin can stay healthy and Ignila can be the leader he was in Calgary I say the Pens stand a good chance. The question is who is going to beat Chicago. I love the Pens since 1989 they have been my favorite team with the Montreal Canadians. I truly do not like Boston and Philadelphia way to many goons and much less pure talent. Both will be hard to beat in the playoffs because no other team has as much brute strength (they will tire other teams out and cause injuries as well). I have always liked Jarg (1682 points) but he is over 40 and I think by playing in a rough and tuff team like Boston he will get hurt because the players juices will be flowing and tempers will rise and the weaker/older bodies will get hurt. But I hope not would love to see him get 2000 points (He would be only the 2nd ever to do so...if not he will most likely finish his career 2nd all time with points ahead of Gordie Howe (1850 points) and Mark Messier (1887 points)...Mario Lemieux was going to get well over 2000 points but to many injuries and illnesses plagued him) in his career in the next couple of years....wish he came to Montreal (lots of talent but no super star and a older and wise player to lead them).

[triwak]

Comiskey sometimes gets a little extra love (as opposed to other executives in the HOF), because he was the player/manager of the St. Louis Brown Stockings of the American Association (another Major League) during the 1880s. They won 4 straight pennants under him (1885-88). This is important stuff if you are a St. Louis CARDINAL fan, since this is the team that eventually became the current Cardinals. (Although you wouldn't know that, if you only listened to the current team's media reports - for SOME reason, they don't acknowledge the team's history prior to 1892).

[Zone91]

triwak

That is very interesting!!! Thanks!!!

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Matthew H

I know the EXACT same card sold for 1050$ in 2009 same MK.

Link:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...791&grade=auth


That is what I was wondering if the new buyer got a really good deal or did the previous buyer know a lot more about this player and appreciated him more...I guess the answer would most likely be yes. Any how I was wondering why such a price change on the very same card.

It's hard to judge a cards value based on a BIN. Like you've probably already read, anyone can ask whatever they want for something, and there might even be someone willing to pay that much, will it ever happen again? Who knows.

As far as the buyer just being more appreciative of Comiskey than others... I doubt it, since he no longer owns the card.

[Zone91]

Matthew H

True that had not crossed my mind.

[Zone91]

Well so seems that my brother actually purchased the card for me as a gift...I am lucky to have a brother like him!!! Looking forward to seen the card in person.

It was my ultra late Christmas gift...lolllll. I was talking to him about the card about a week ago and he decided to jump the gun and pick it up for my collection.

He was either going to buy this one or the Hugh Duffy...glad he chose this one because for 500$ the Hugh Duffy looks really bad.

Duffy link:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/261098390264?...84.m1423.l2649

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Well so seems that my brother actually purchased the card for me as a gift...I am lucky to have a brother like him!!! Looking forward to seen the card in person.

It was my ultra late Christmas gift...lolllll. I was talking to him about the card about a week ago and he decided to jump the gun and pick it up for my collection.

He was either going to buy this one or the Hugh Duffy...glad he chose this one because for 500$ the Hugh Duffy looks really bad.

That is pretty cool. I wish I had a sibling that would buy me a HOF Old Judge card.

[Zone91]

bn2cardz

Thanks!!!

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Zone91

AMBST95.. I mean the whole world knows about Mickey Mantle: 536 home runs and Babe Ruth: 714 home runs....but not Tris Speaker.

It's a shame that Tris Speaker relatively gets the shaft as compared to Matty/Cobb/Wags/Young/etc.. he was one of the first HOF class (with Wajo, Matty, Cy young, Cobb, etc) and even though primarily a dead ball player, his stats hold up incredibly.. especially doubles and triples totals. Also, I know it was a different game and centerfielders could play much shallower, but just check out his OF assists as compared with assist numbers today. The guy was a flat out stud.

[terjung]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

It's a shame that Tris Speaker relatively gets the shaft as compared to Matty/Cobb/Wags/Young/etc.. he was one of the first HOF class (with Wajo, Matty, Cy young, Cobb, etc) and even though primarily a dead ball player, his stats hold up incredibly.. especially doubles and triples totals. Also, I know it was a different game and centerfielders could play much shallower, but just check out his OF assists as compared with assist numbers today. The guy was a flat out stud.

No argument that Speaker was a stud.

For the sake of clarity though, he wasn't in the first HOF class and neither was Cy Young, for that matter.

They both made the 2nd class though.

1936 Class: Cobb, W. Johnson, Matty, Ruth, Wagner
1937 Class: Bulkeley, B. Johnson, Lajoie, Mack, McGraw, Speaker, Wright, Young

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by terjung

No argument that Speaker was a stud.

For the sake of clarity though, he wasn't in the first HOF class and neither was Cy Young, for that matter.

They both made the 2nd class though.

1936 Class: Cobb, W. Johnson, Matty, Ruth, Wagner
1937 Class: Bulkeley, B. Johnson, Lajoie, Mack, McGraw, Speaker, Wright, Young

Oops, my bad... From memory I'd thought Wajo, Wagner, Cobb, Ruth, Matty, Speaker, Collins, Cobb, Sisler, Mack, McGraw, Young were in that first class... I think because they all took a group shot together in Cooperstown. Now that I think about it, I think that may have been a centennial HOF shot they took in 1939?

PS- I'm old school in that I always took pride in remembering stuff/stats I'd read in my first total baseball encyclopedia, and still feel disappointed when I have to google. In my world, Ty Cobb still batted .367, Billy Hamilton stole 937 bases, and Hack Wilson drove in 190 runs in 1930

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Leon

I kept the same figures....Thanks guys appreciate the input on this player...50 years in a career anywhere is a big thing so now I understand why he is a hall of fame player.

He wasn't inducted as a player, he was as an executive/pioneer. Not meant to shove you down, I just don't know if you have read into it that much as to his induction.

[Zone91]

HOF Auto Rookies

No I have yet to get there in my reading I just started Cap Anson's book called

''The Grand Old Man Of Baseball''

I have just found a book about Comiskey on amazon and will go ahead and buy it.

I will then read about Hugh Duffy...just purchased his book called ''The Heavenly Twins of Boston Baseball: A Dual Biography of Hugh Duffy and Tommy McCarthy''.

Any how I am glad I now own this card (Comiskey 1887 Old Judge) he seems to be a big deal in baseball and that makes it all the more fun to own this card...and piece of baseball history (A gift from my brother I found out yesterday).

[auggiedoggy]

Originally Posted by Zone91

Nice card (looks better than a 2 I guess the mark makes it a 2) of a well know hall of fame player. I think he was the coach of the team that made the baseball scandal in 1919 and a player before that based on what I have read...correct me if I am wrong.

Please do not worry this will be my ONLY post for today!!!

Link:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/310642180038?...84.m1497.l2649

What? Post as often as you want. You're a member here!

Nice card! Nice brother!!