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  #51  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:49 PM
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[quote=Johnny630;1907749]Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......itís all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!
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  #52  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:26 PM
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[quote=ullmandds;1907752]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
Even after all the fraud and manipulation has been exposed I can no longer invest my time and money in a industry/system that makes no sense to me.
People do not get it .......it’s all about money and a slab with fake opinionated numbers on them oh and high end Stickers.

Shills, Investors, Doctors, Salesmen, Opinion Givers ugh yuck

and this is your prerogative...BUT...it seems most DO NOT CARE!!!!!!!!
You’re correct Pete they don’t care so the vast majority will remain happy selling, pushing, pumping, shilling, and manipulating all along while bragging about their PSA graded cards.

It’s garbage...total trash.

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-12-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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  #53  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:35 PM
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Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" Iím more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they donít. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and thatís everybodyís elseís are too high. If it is fake thatís concerning but I donít get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."
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  #54  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
Someone on facebook was showing off his new acquisitions from one of the big AH's this past weekend...one card looked really bad to me...totally overgraded and likely altered higher grade Goudey Ruth. His response to me was:

" I’m more of the camp of the system is what it is. Collectors either believe in the system or they don’t. Nobody thinks their cards grade high enough and that’s everybody’s else’s are too high. If it is fake that’s concerning but I don’t get caught up in trying to degrade. Appreciate the insight."
That attitude is why I’m out of this Industry....I can’t stomach it....What about all the people that have done it right over the years? What a big up yours to them…… The new generation only wants to gamble they could care less about quality it’s only about the label of the Newport Beach Slab.
To many people are making money....Nothing is going to change except more agreed in the industry

Last edited by Johnny630; 08-12-2019 at 03:41 PM.
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  #55  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:43 PM
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Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better.

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........
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  #56  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:48 PM
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Before TPG all of the altered cards were raw, at least now you have a choice of how you like them, raw or slabbed.
Slabbing certainly appears to have made it a higher paying profession.
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  #57  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:05 PM
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If you had a used car to sell and the best lot in town had been shown to sell cars with rolled back mileage and/or altered CarFax reports resulting in bringing the most money. Would you consign your car there?
No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much

Last edited by Paul S; 08-12-2019 at 04:08 PM. Reason: had to had a 'r' to "nice"
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  #58  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:10 PM
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Coin vs Conscience, a struggle as old as man
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  #59  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
That attitude is why Iím out of this Industry....I canít stomach it....
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
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  #60  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
Itís like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.
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  #61  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:58 PM
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As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....
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  #62  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:01 PM
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As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....
minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.
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  #63  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
Youíre correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.
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  #64  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:11 PM
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Youíre correct my stomach does need a break...this will be my last post about this.
Please don't stop posting about it. If everyone stops posting about it the scum bags win because it will go away.
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  #65  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Here is what I don't understand:

You and several other regular posters on this site claim to be totally "out of this industry [because] you can't stomach it". If this is the case, then why are you (and those several others) some of the most frequent and angry posters on a chat board about an industry you are out of and cant stomach? Seems your time and efforts may be better served being directed at something you are into. At the least, perhaps your stomach would enjoy the break. Just sayin......
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post
Itís like a bunch of vegans barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.
I donít like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that Iíve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, thatís their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.
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  #66  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:15 PM
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I donít like the fraud, but the Hamlet act some of the posters here are putting on about leaving the hobby is getting old. I accept that this is a billion dollar a year unregulated industry, and so there are fakes everywhere, including probably in my collection. I sleep well at night knowing that Iíve done my due diligence to make that a number I can live with. If other members do not feel that way, fine, thatís their prerogative, but then when they keep making posts about being done with the hobby, with nothing new or constructive to add, I get irritated.
Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I donít wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.
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  #67  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
As I have said since Moby Dick was a minnow, PWCC and Ebay are going nowhere, period.....Look at some of the 50's cards PWCC has ending tonight, unfreaking believable at some of the prices....Brent and Joe O continue to laugh their collective asses off....
Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.
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  #68  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:38 PM
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Soooo, Joe has been selling off his stock and maybe this is Brent's way of selling off his stock to? Wonder what percentage of cards are from consignors compared to family/friends.
Joe sold some stock to cover the tax obligations on options that vested.
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  #69  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:41 PM
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Everything I have said has been constructive, I think most would agree on this board. I donít wanna piss off anyone. It is what it is at this point.
I donít think that losing interest is a reason to stop posting. Wanting things fixed is a noble cause, and perhaps these call-outs will help in some way. I read that Law Enforcement does frequent this site quite often. So while some donít like the negativity, it doesnít hurt to voice your opinion. Plus it just feels good to vent!

I happen to agree with your insights and opinions, but can understand the other side as well. I see how the repeated gloom and doom could be a big buzzkill to dedicated collectors. I personally still love collecting, but feel like weíve been taken to the cleaners over the past few years. Iím sure people roll their eyes at my comments, and I did stop posting for about a month. But then realized that if I canít vent here, where the hell can I? My wife doesnít get it, and my friends donít care. The Beagle is the only one whoíll listen... and then even he starts howling!
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  #70  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:42 PM
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minnow huh? funny you were PSA's biggest fanboy until very recently Kevin.
Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 08-12-2019 at 05:44 PM.
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  #71  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:47 PM
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Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...
Ever heard of Anger Management, Kevin? Did I say something that was/isn't true?
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  #72  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:53 PM
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I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry
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  #73  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:03 PM
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Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you canít always be the exact same can it?

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I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry
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  #74  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:10 PM
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No, I would only consign it to a lot that used the term "Pre Owned"...sounds much nicer than "Used Car", and you get a little sticker saying as much
My ebay ID is used-cards. I guess I should have chosen "pre-ownedcards". All these years I must have been sending out the wrong impression about my condition challenged cardboard vehicles. What in the heck was I thinking 15 years ago?

Brian

Last edited by brianp-beme; 08-12-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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  #75  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:12 PM
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So what's going to happen if a new TPG comes into being using advanced methods to weed out alterations, the result being for a card to hold its value a seller will be forced to have it re slabbed by this new company? Is the government going to shut down this new company because PSA is too big to fail?

The point is that the people who will decide the fate of PSA are not the people currently invested in it, but the new buyers who will be needed to sustain the hobby. And IMO no rational new buyer will opt for a currently graded PSA card if word has gotten out that they might be tainted and there is another grading alternative. Given the startup costs to create such a new TPG, I think one can safely assume that if this new company is successfully launched, its founders will have been smart enough to have budgeted that which is necessary to effectively market its product and make clear its superiority to current grading methods.
Sounds great theoretically, but I donít see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I donít know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary itís really is tough to tell.
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  #76  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:12 PM
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Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......
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  #77  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:13 PM
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Is there a reason the temper meter always goes from 1 to 10 instantly? The annoyance presented to you canít always be the exact same can it?
Don't even get me started with you.....Better go take a nap
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  #78  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:17 PM
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Sounds great theoretically, but I donít see it happening. If anything, computer aided authentication may be added to PSA or SGCs current analysis. Having said that, I donít know how it would work. Take an area I know a little about-Old Judges. Please tell me what you would have the machine look for to detect a rebacked card? As long as no trimming was necessary itís really is tough to tell.
I also wonder how a machine would look for a factory edge especially where some of the elite doctors are now able to do a passable job of simulating them? Maybe but sounds awfully futuristic.
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  #79  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:25 PM
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I don't cheat....therin lies the rub. You want to piss off a bunch of collectors and hobbyist because of the greed of Moser and Brent. I tell you what. YOU get out of the hobby, and I will be right behind you. Since it's all corrupt anyway.
I already am fruitcake, your still pooping...
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  #80  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Pete, For the record, let's please get this right for a final time. Do I think PSA is innocent and none of these accusations true? Absolutely not....I have argued on this Board about grading preference by all of the TPG's, not just PSA....I have seen T206s graded PSA 8 by a "reputable" dealer on Ebay that look like 6's. I have also seen SGC graded key rookies in a grade of 98 (1963 Topps Rose for one) that look like they should be 84's, again, by a "reputable" dealer. In simple terms, you can easily take a T206 HOFer that is encased as a 7 (1500-2000 card) and easily get it into an 8 holder (10K or better) if the grader is crooked and the company corrupt....That's huge bucks. I have always argued corruption to some degree with grading among all TPGs.....So please, leave your limited perception of PSA on the doorstep......
Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"
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  #81  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:43 PM
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Interesting that you always favored ultra high grade vintage in light of your "comments?"
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?
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  #82  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:44 PM
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My brother has been a mechanic for over 40 years so I have learned a little, though not much, about cars and engines. Bored means that the cylinder was bored out to increase the size. This means you also use larger pistons. This increases the total displacement of the engine. In your case it was increased from 454 cubic inches to 464. You get the displacement by getting the volume of each cylinder by measuring the displacement between when the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder to the top. You multiply by the number of cylinders to get the total displacement. Stroked means that you modified the crankshaft so that the piston travels farther into the cylinder which creates greater displacement and power. Those numbers are no longer used as all manufacturers have gone to liters. A 400 engine would be 6.6 liters, a 464 would be around 7 liters..
I did not know that, thank you very much. I do know that I still managed to make it to Malibu today AND with the 600HP, IT WAS STILL FAST. I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!! VROOMMMMM. Still. I'm feeling empty inside because I have no stroker and I really really wanted one. Just like I wanted PSA to tell me if a card has been trimmed....I had the feeling I couldn't trust them but they soaked me for a bundle the last 2 years alone anyway. I am a schmuck. I blame myself. I knew it but was under the spell.

That doesn't mean I will continue to get my teeth kicked in, like so many other dopey mc dope dopes that can't quit it.

Have a little pride and give it a rest for a while. Just say no & quit popping. It is very stupid and not very useful anyway, IMHO.
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  #83  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:46 PM
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i have no hard on...atleast none for anything having to do with you, Kevin.

I just find it funny how you are bragging about having said this or that forever...when PSA/TPG'ers are at the core of this problem...and you have been about as big a fan boy for it/high grade as long as I can remember. That's it!

Back to the ice...oh wait it's summer!
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  #84  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:49 PM
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PWCC is alive and well
Itís just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poemís trimmed, another dud.
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  #85  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bocabirdman View Post
Of course guys, one point that hasn't been made is that if you eliminate TPGs, the card doctors only streamline their deception. Buy a card, screw with it and resell it. I am not sure that it much better.

Also, in the pre-TPG world there was an on-going problem with individual grading opinions. One guy's VG/EX was another's VG ...... or EX. In addition, there were unscrupulous vendors pulling straight up bait and switches. It was tough to prove it where it was one raw card substituted for another. The TPG world is not perfect but I am not sure things would be better without them.

I wonder if there are any possible technical advances available that could actually put card doctors out of business. The U.S. Mint sure has a helluva hard time staying one step ahead of the forgers.........
I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.
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  #86  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:00 PM
Goudey77 Goudey77 is offline
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
I keep forgetting about your ice fishing hobby and it numbing your ass....Sorry
Whereís 🍿 emoji. Iím just here for the entertainment...
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  #87  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:03 PM
Goudey77 Goudey77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
I certainly agree with you 100. The problem with the PSA system is that has create a billion dollar fraud you otherwise would never of had with out them. Maybe just in the millions.
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys.
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  #88  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:17 PM
Paul S Paul S is offline
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? C'Mon Pete.....I'm am naming cards that I was familiar with....What exactly is your hard on about? Just wondering.....PSA? PWCC?
Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument
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  #89  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:17 PM
wondo wondo is offline
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Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys.
Welcome to the Net54 boards.
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  #90  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:51 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is offline
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Originally Posted by frankbmd View Post
PWCC is alive and well
Itís just the hobby going to hell
Forum members just getting sicker
While the usual suspects bicker
How about another scanner thread?
I think the last one is nearly dead
The forum really needs some new blood,
Shit, this poemís trimmed, another dud.
Amazing.

What kind of scanner do...
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  #91  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:51 PM
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ullmandds ullmandds is offline
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Pete can't go ice fishing in August - so there goes your argument
if we're setting any records straight here...I have lived in MN 20 years...I have gone ice fishing ONCE!!!!!!!!!
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  #92  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:55 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
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Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys.
Martin, I 100% agree with you. Those guys need to get the scandal to go away as fast as possible to protect their altered high end cards values.

The cards are in the industries most respected slabs. That should be all that matters, that and PWCC brings the best prices in their amazing completely honest auctions.
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  #93  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:32 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by jhs5120 View Post
Itís like a bunch of vampires barging into a stake house to claim moral authority.
Fixed that for you! I think.... I might have fixed the wrong word, but I'll stand by my fix...
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  #94  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:35 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 View Post
Get a life Pete, they are still the best in the game. I'm backing what I always said about PSA, they are the best in the Hobby. If you dont think SGC has similar issues, you've got major brain damage....I simply said PSA isn't going anywhere...
If they're the best, I really should find someone who is organized and start my own service.
They've set the bar so low....
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  #95  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:39 PM
BigBeerGut BigBeerGut is offline
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The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!
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  #96  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:40 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuddjcal View Post
I could hardly keep the wheels on the ground!!!
Then you need to have a serious talk with your tire and suspension guys. You're leaving sooo much speed on the table!!!
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  #97  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:58 PM
MULLINS5 MULLINS5 is offline
Patr1ck Mu111N5
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I'm one that has said they're out of the [graded] hobby.

PWCC, PSA, Brent, Joe, FBI, eBay, et cetera - who knows what will happen. I'm sitting back and

I've been building some pretty nice raw sets lately and having more fun than I did before
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  #98  
Old 08-12-2019, 11:02 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Originally Posted by BigBeerGut View Post
The guy who says *Stuff trumps all* is very cool I think. He is so right!
PWCC sales were higher this past month. Brent will never go to jail I am sick over this!
Who this man could be I just don't know.
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  #99  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:54 AM
RedsFan1941 RedsFan1941 is online now
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Originally Posted by Goudey77 View Post
It amazes me how persistent you guys are. Talking about the same things. Same lines over and over between the 5-10 guys.
this is the most spot-on accurate post in months. so much huffing and puffing here while the real work is being done elsewhere.
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  #100  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:01 AM
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Goodsport40 Goodsport40 is offline
Rob.ert He.rd
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Legal type question:

If the authorities are able to prove that Moser and Brent knowingly committed fraud by selling altered items as authentic(at higher grades due to trimming, etc.) would each item sold be considered one count of fraud each?

My apologies if this has been covered in another thread. Thanks.
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