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  #1  
Old 07-03-2019, 12:32 AM
jackwesq jackwesq is offline
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Default 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in PWCC Auction

Hi everyone. My apologies as this is post WWII card, but PWCC has the below 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in their next auction. Will be interesting to watch the bidding.

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  #2  
Old 07-03-2019, 02:49 AM
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That exact card was just sold in Heritage's auction on Feb 24, 2019 (less than 4 1/2 months ago), for $456K.


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  #3  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:07 AM
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Unimprovable condition!
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  #4  
Old 07-03-2019, 05:58 AM
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#becausewetried

Nice card; consignor must be tone deaf or unaware of the current scandal.
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  #5  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
#becausewetried

Nice card; consignor must be tone deaf or unaware of the current scandal.
The consignor might be aware of the current situation and not care. It could be a planned sale. It could be sold for a number of reasons.

This scandal is going to blow over just like every storm in the hobby has up to this point.

I am surprised so many people think this is going to be the demise of high grade trading cards.

The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is the ultimate symbol of Americana and the price might be higher or it might be lower but you are never going to see the demand for this card evaporate.

There are some who have been calling for PWCC to cancel all of their auctions and others who hope Brent ends up in jail. This might be the ultimate FU saying we still get the goods.

One revelation from this recent situation we have confirmed is that you can use a hidden reserve on PWCC auctions so the odds of this going cheap are quite low I believe.
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  #6  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
This might be the ultimate FU saying we still get the goods.
I still believe this will go lower than the Heritage auction. The consignor will lose a big chunk of money and think to himself, "Why the hell did I consign with them? I don't need any help in losing money". That's just my prediction though.
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  #7  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:39 AM
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My opinion...

Dont delude yourself. Its Brent's card. Like any crook he was going to try the ultimate caper, only now it's getting sold to pay his attorney.
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  #8  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:41 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is online now
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Who knows..

but a lot of times you will hear a collector after a big ticket purchase just trying to get their money back to 'focus on a new direction' in their collection

It seems like this new 'focus' happens after a big ticket purchase...
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  #9  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:42 AM
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#becausewetried

Nice card; consignor must be tone deaf or unaware of the current scandal.
thus far not that big of deal....ask 50 random people at the National. how many will think they are 'victims', how many will even know about this scandal...survey says....

Heck how are they supposed to know about the double secret probation

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 07-03-2019 at 06:49 AM.
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  #10  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:47 AM
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My opinion...

Dont delude yourself. Its Brent's card. Like any crook he was going to try the ultimate caper, only now it's getting sold to pay his attorney.

So what you are saying is he bought it in the Heritage auction and now is forced to liquidate it to pay attorneys fees. Correct?
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  #11  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:54 AM
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So what you are saying is he bought it in the Heritage auction and now is forced to liquidate it to pay attorneys fees. Correct?
Makes as much sense as "this will all blow over"

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  #12  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:56 AM
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Makes as much sense as "this will all blow over"

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Do you still collect autographed cards?

I assume you do.
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  #13  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:00 AM
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Here’s a crazy idea .... how about just deciding based on their track record that you will stop doing business with PWCC (if you ever did). Chronicling on a daily basis their alleged fraud for your remaining time on this spinning orb seems a little wasteful.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 07-03-2019 at 07:01 AM.
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  #14  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:04 AM
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Do you still collect autographed cards?



I assume you do.
Sure do, but narrow it to Only SGC graded t206s with shaky signatures.

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  #15  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:06 AM
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My opinion...

Dont delude yourself. Its Brent's card. Like any crook he was going to try the ultimate caper, only now it's getting sold to pay his attorney.
My thoughts too.
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  #16  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:11 AM
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So what you are saying is he bought it in the Heritage auction and now is forced to liquidate it to pay attorneys fees. Correct?
this is certainly possible!
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  #17  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:16 AM
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And please dont compare Apples to Eron David, I give you more credit than that.

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  #18  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Here’s a crazy idea .... how about just deciding based on their track record that you will stop doing business with PWCC (if you ever did). Chronicling on a daily basis their alleged fraud for your remaining time on this spinning orb seems a little wasteful.
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  #19  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:25 AM
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And please dont compare Apples to Eron David, I give you more credit than that.

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The obvious point is there have been loads of issues with autographs and people still collect them. I believe the same will prove to be true with cards.

A comment was made in a thread I read last night about the range of alterations and what is okay and what isn't okay. I for one as I have said was surprised when I learned that soaking and spooning were all deemed acceptable so it is clear there is a wide range of opinions on what constitutes alteration.

The card that was presented that Sotheby's expert had "restored" gives further credence to the art and antique car analogies. I wonder how many of the collectors that purchase these relics actually care. It might be a lot it might not be as many as people think.

I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post

This scandal is going to blow over just like every storm in the hobby has up to this point.

I am surprised so many people think this is going to be the demise of high grade trading cards.

The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is the ultimate symbol of Americana and the price might be higher or it might be lower but you are never going to see the demand for this card evaporate.

There are some who have been calling for PWCC to cancel all of their auctions and others who hope Brent ends up in jail. This might be the ultimate FU saying we still get the goods.

One revelation from this recent situation we have confirmed is that you can use a hidden reserve on PWCC auctions so the odds of this going cheap are quite low I believe.
It will not be the demise for graded, but I think a correction is on the way. It won't be overnight.

In general, yes, the 52 Mantle will always be a symbol of Americana. Demand will not evaporate. This particular Mantle's final sale price is tainted, as well as ALL of PWCC'S prices.

Bobby at VCP should remove all PWCC sales prices from their services. Keeping the sales data on his site is knowingly selling false data to his customers. At the very least there should be a PWCC disclaimer. The push for this is coming.

It's not an "FU" to those who want justice. To my knowledge, this Mantle wasn't advertised like previous high "calibur" cards. A 52 Mantle PSA 8 would be pushed on all social media outlets, email blitzes, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it just popped up on their next auction with little to no push? It's likely a Brent card being sold to pay attorney fees and reimburse customers for cards THEY altered.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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Bobby still has a PWCC ad covering his front page.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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So what you are saying is he bought it in the Heritage auction and now is forced to liquidate it to pay attorneys fees. Correct?
What would the card need to reside in a '10' holder? sharper corners?? It's a big gamble, but if you have done all this "so far", I don't see why not.
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  #23  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:36 AM
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It will not be the demise for graded, but I think a correction is on the way. It won't be overnight.

In general, yes, the 52 Mantle will always be a symbol of Americana. Demand will not evaporate. This particular Mantle's final sale price is tainted, as well as ALL of PWCC'S prices.

Bobby at VCP should remove all PWCC sales prices from their services. Keeping the sales data on his site is knowingly selling false data to his customers. At the very least there should be a PWCC disclaimer. The push for this is coming.

It's not an "FU" to those who want justice. To my knowledge, this Mantle wasn't advertised like previous high "calibur" cards. A 52 Mantle PSA 8 would be pushed on all social media outlets, email blitzes, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it just popped up on their next auction with little to no push? It's likely a Brent card being sold to pay attorney fees and reimburse customers for cards THEY altered.

Removing PWCC sales from VCP would be a horrible idea. There are thousands and thousands of legit sales that must be taken into consideration that would be removed. This would give an even more false sense of card values.

I am not sure where you guys come up with these theories. There is a lot of speculation out there that to me is dangerous and inflammatory.
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  #24  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:38 AM
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What would the card need to reside in a '10' holder? sharper corners?? It's a big gamble, but if you have done all this "so far", I don't see why not.
Yes the lower left corner is clearly an issue.

There are lots of quick flips that take place in trading cards that work and many that don't.

I just think it is very speculative to assume that this is Brent's card and he is selling to pay for his potential legal issues.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:40 AM
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I must be missing this, why do people think it's Brent's card? Is it because nobody would consign it to him in this environment?
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-03-2019 at 07:41 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MULLINS5 View Post
It will not be the demise for graded, but I think a correction is on the way. It won't be overnight.

In general, yes, the 52 Mantle will always be a symbol of Americana. Demand will not evaporate. This particular Mantle's final sale price is tainted, as well as ALL of PWCC'S prices.

Bobby at VCP should remove all PWCC sales prices from their services. Keeping the sales data on his site is knowingly selling false data to his customers. At the very least there should be a PWCC disclaimer. The push for this is coming.

It's not an "FU" to those who want justice. To my knowledge, this Mantle wasn't advertised like previous high "calibur" cards. A 52 Mantle PSA 8 would be pushed on all social media outlets, email blitzes, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but it just popped up on their next auction with little to no push? It's likely a Brent card being sold to pay attorney fees and reimburse customers for cards THEY altered.
If he is buying back all the bad cards does anyone else think that PSA could be taking care of him on the back end??
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:42 AM
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There are some who have been calling for PWCC to cancel all of their auctions and others who hope Brent ends up in jail.
I am one of these people. Every time they continue to sell a tainted PSA card, they increase PSA's liability against the grade guarantee. They are conspiring against PSA by selling their cards. I'm not saying it's bad to sell a PSA 8 Mantle right now; I'm saying it's bad to consign it through PWCC.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:45 AM
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If he is buying back all the bad cards does anyone else think that PSA could be taking care of him on the back end??
When I emailed Steve Sloan to recommend he have the buyers of PWCC cards return them to Brent, I gave him the reasoning that if the sale never happened, the grade guarantee doesn't come into play. Why would PSA pay off cards that were doctored and submitted by Moser or Brent if they didn't have to? Wouldn't that be a fiduciary issue their stockholders would want to know about?
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2019, 07:49 AM
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I must be missing this, why do people think it's Brent's card? Is it because nobody would consign it to him in this environment?
For me it's just an educated guess. Could be wrong.
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  #30  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:03 AM
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When I emailed Steve Sloan to recommend he have the buyers of PWCC cards return them to Brent, I gave him the reasoning that if the sale never happened, the grade guarantee doesn't come into play. Why would PSA pay off cards that were doctored and submitted by Moser or Brent if they didn't have to? Wouldn't that be a fiduciary issue their stockholders would want to know about?
PwCC and mosers contentions will be they had no idea we didn’t doctor any cards, prove it! You guys are supposed to be the Experts with the guarantee ...you slabbed them. Make it right....See in my mind both companies are at fault PSA can’t consistently miss that many bad cards, if they are they really suck at their jobs…… Both companies are covering their asses... It’s going to be very hard to prove that PWCC Or Moser
Allegedly doctored any cards........

Last edited by Johnny630; 07-03-2019 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:12 AM
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The consignor might be aware of the current situation and not care. It could be a planned sale. It could be sold for a number of reasons.

This scandal is going to blow over just like every storm in the hobby has up to this point.

I am surprised so many people think this is going to be the demise of high grade trading cards.

The 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is the ultimate symbol of Americana and the price might be higher or it might be lower but you are never going to see the demand for this card evaporate.

There are some who have been calling for PWCC to cancel all of their auctions and others who hope Brent ends up in jail. This might be the ultimate FU saying we still get the goods.

One revelation from this recent situation we have confirmed is that you can use a hidden reserve on PWCC auctions so the odds of this going cheap are quite low I believe.
David- I don't expect the hobby to collapse over this scandal, but I would likewise be shocked if this entire matter was swept under the carpet and ignored.

PSA needs to acknowledge that they have to produce a better product, and as many collectors as possible should know about this. Then they can decide how they want to proceed. If they want to continue paying world's records for everything, at least they will be doing it with their eyes open.
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:13 AM
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Unimprovable condition!
OK, that was funny.
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  #33  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:28 AM
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Hi everyone. My apologies as this is post WWII card, but PWCC has the below 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in their next auction.
Do you have a source for this?
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:51 AM
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Do you have a source for this?
It is on their website. Starts July 5th I see.
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  #35  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:58 AM
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I am one of these people. Every time they continue to sell a tainted PSA card, they increase PSA's liability against the grade guarantee. They are conspiring against PSA by selling their cards. I'm not saying it's bad to sell a PSA 8 Mantle right now; I'm saying it's bad to consign it through PWCC.

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/curr...page=50&page=1


I guess. There are nearly 400 Mantle cards coming for sale this week.

Must be a lot of stupid people out there.
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  #36  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:00 AM
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https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/curr...page=50&page=1


I guess. There are nearly 400 Mantle cards coming for sale this week.

Must be a lot of stupid people out there.
I see it everyday. Just listen to a politcal forum for proof.
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  #37  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:15 AM
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https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/curr...page=50&page=1


I guess. There are nearly 400 Mantle cards coming for sale this week.

Must be a lot of stupid people out there.
Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Only ~15 (I may have counted incorrectly) of the Mantles are blessed with stickers.

Does that mean only 15 are "conserved"?

Are the folks that bid on the stickered cards the stupid ones?

or ......

Are the 385 folks who didn't get their Mantles conserved the stupid ones?

or .....

Are the 385 folks hopeful that Moser will bid on their card(s)?

or ......

Are both true and all 400 people who buy them stupid?

If I don't bid with PWCC, am I stupid?

Are there any contingency plans to increase the size of the Vault in the near future?

Alex, I'll take PWCC for $1000

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  #38  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:38 AM
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This guy from Blowout sums it up perfectly.

"You have to be mentally challenged to buy from pwcc"
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  #39  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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This guy from Blowout sums it up perfectly.

"You have to be mentally challenged to buy from pwcc"
Nothing Will Change....People are Naive and Ignorant.....

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Old 07-03-2019, 10:25 AM
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I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.
I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:36 AM
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Nothing Will Change....People are Naive and Ignorant.....

A Fool and His Money Are Soon Parted
Is anyone else tired of the narrative that "if you don't think or act exactly as I do, you must inherently be less intelligent than I am?"
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:37 AM
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I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

Last edited by Dpeck100; 07-03-2019 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:40 AM
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Is anyone else tired of the narrative that "if you don't think or act exactly as I do, you must inherently be less intelligent than I am?"
Of course but I have dealt with differing opinions from the second I started posting online about cards and just expect it. It hasn't proven to be too smart to take the other side of my arguments.

Last edited by Dpeck100; 07-03-2019 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:44 AM
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You are clearly the foremost wrestling card collector on the forum.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:44 AM
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Is anyone else tired of the narrative that "if you don't think or act exactly as I do, you must inherently be less intelligent than I am?"
No one else--just you. You're a moron.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:16 AM
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I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.
Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:32 AM
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Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

Yes the timing was poor.

I admittedly do not know what to think about it. Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

Brent makes it very clear in that video that there are quite a few cards that have been "conserved". He has a very matter of fact look on his face and with being so connected to the hobby and seeing thousands upon thousands of cards I think it is clear he is right. Whether one thinks it is the right opinion or belief appears to be up for debate.

I do find it odd that some who are totally okay with soaking which in my view is attempting to improve the cards appearance or restore it is okay but other methods are worthy of the death penalty.

In life many try and justify wrong doing by saying well others do it or it is not as bad as killing someone etc. but once that line is crossed it is crossed and now you are in new territory.

I can't get in the head of someone buying these cards so I will leave what is okay or acceptable up to them and as I said there may be many of these collectors that are perfectly fine with "conservation" and would rather look at a much nicer card. I have to assume that many of these same collectors have exposure to other high end collectible asset classes and trading cards appears to be the only area where it is taboo but yet still accepted.

Very complicated topic that is for sure.
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  #48  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:44 AM
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Yes the timing was poor.
Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.
As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town around me back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 07-03-2019 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:47 AM
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As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:51 AM
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I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.
I started in '86 at age 9. Collected just Topps wax for a year or so before biting hard into vintage (back then just called "old") cards. EX range was super nice for a '50s or '60s card, tobacco cards were virtually never seen unless you were at a huge show, and then they were not in great shape. It does seem odd to me even before the PWCC mess that seemingly so many prewar cards in ridiculously high grade seemed to come out of the woodwork, but at the time I thought well, we have the internet now. The market is able to allocate more efficiently. But where were all those cards back at shows circa 1990? I'm admittedly small town, never went to the National or anything. But the whole thing still seems kind of odd.
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Last edited by jchcollins; 07-03-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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