How to tell a Koester Bread from an E121 or W575?

[dougscats]

I ask this question only having learned about Koester Bread's last week, when I auctioned off an Ed Brown.

I have one card left from that lot, a Waite Hoyt, also with the same scrapbook/letter back that the Brown had, and I wonder if it's a Koester's.
I tried to do my homework this time, and Google brought me back to Net54:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...read+Babe+Ruth.

In this post, ellyn2005 maintains that the thickness of the card and the quality of the picture distinguish the Koesters from the W-575:

"... [Regarding] the differences between W575-1's, E121's and the 1921 Koester's Bread.

W575-1's..These cards have thinner stock, are grayer and do not have the clarity that E121's
or Koester's Bread [do] ... We do acknowledge that this 1921 Koester's Set is a similar issue to both,
kind of a hybrid but there are distinctive differences..

This subset [Koester's] had blank backs, similar to W575-1 but card stock is similar to E121..."

So, given the scan below, can you tell if this is a Koester's Bread?

It is thick, and the picture quality is pretty good, so, if ellyn2005 is right, I wouldn't think it's a W575.
I guess the only way I could tell whether or not it's an E121 would be to take the scrapbook/letter off the back.
But I hesitate to do that, being an amateur, thinking of using a handkerchief and a steam iron.

So, I put it to you, for your expertise and advice.

If it's a standard E121, I'm keeping it [in my eclectic hall of fame collection].
But should it turn out to be a Koester's, and presumably valuable, I'll most likely auction it right here, as good fortune would have it.

... Or maybe trade it for some T206's.

So, what do you think:

[bigfish]

Could you post a back scan?

[rhettyeakley]

The Brown card was easy because he was only found in the Koesters set--he wasn't printed at all by the American Caramel Co. as part of either the E121 series of 80 or 120.

The Hoyt was printed in both sets. The fact that they were found together probably means that the Hoyt is in fact a Koesters card (blank backed) but it is also entirely possible that the Hoyt could have an American Caramel back if it were to be soaked--as I can't tell through the thick paper if there is any printing on the back. So in short likely a Koester's card BUT it could be a E121 Series of 80 (if it is somewhat thicker) or E121 Series of 120 if the card is thinner (120 series was printed on thinner stock than the series of 80).

-Rhett

[dougscats]

So, can I take it that these cards are safe to soak?
[I know, for instance, that T206's and their kind are safe to soak.]

Any particular instructions/advice, particularly when drying?

I know there's always some risk, but the gamble is surely worth if it can be done. I'd appreciate anyone with knowledge in this area weighing in.

Thanks.

Doug

[rhettyeakley]

I'd be very careful if you did soak it because the E121's don't soak as well as some cards do. Also, you need to be aware that the ink on the extra paper on back will likely stain the card on back so I'd probably advise against it altogether. Whenever a card has been pasted right on top of ink on the paper it will run the risk of staining.

If you do put it up or auction here on this site I'd be more interested in it as is than if you soaked it.

[dougscats]

Thanks again, Rhett, and I'm listening to you.

Perhaps using an iron might work? [I can remember doing postage stamps that way when I was a kid.]--maybe dampening a handkerchief and putting it between the back of the card and the iron?

Maybe I should send it to a pro?--there are such, I believe, and right here on Net54--Maybe I should post another message, asking for such?

Rhett, you say you'd rather buy it as is, and I'd rather sell it that way.
But how much is the card worth: 1. If it's [relatively] conclusive that it is a Koester's Bread [if the paper on the back is removed and it's not an E121]? 2. If it's as is, where there is some circumstancial evidence that it is a Koester's but one can't be certain--How much are you willing to gamble on that?

I tried to check prices, but I'm not a VIP member and couldn't find out.

So, let's say I leave it as is. I'm not sure I want to put it up for auction as such. But I will field offers. You can post one or send me a pm while I decide what to do.

Again, I appreciate the board's help and expertise.

[brianp-beme]

I am not familiar with the Koester issue, having never owned an example, but I had great success soaking a group of E121's, mostly 80 series, a few years back. I also have had E120's that were a bear and caused back damage havoc when I soaked them...I think it was the glue used that caused the difference in how they soaked. Like Rhett has mentioned that ink writing might transfer onto the cards. The E121's I soaked were pasted onto red-lined ledger paper, and well, the cards now have red lined backs. Fortunately they were all trimmed, so those red lines almost add to their overall appeal.

Brian

[fkw]

use a wet tissue, dabbing the back and get just the scrapbook paper and glue wet, try to keep from completely soaking the card. I have had the scrapbook paper slide right off easily sometimes because the glue was just a paste.

The word "Soak" is misleading....


PS Doesnt the Ed Brown card have the "Outf" caption making it different from a W575-1?? The Hoyt doesnt have such a design change...

Edited to add.... this info from the 2005 post will answer your Hoyt question.. "On the W575-1, Hoyts name and team is on the side where Hoyts face is at, and the Koesters Hoyts name and team is on the side where his lifted leg is on."

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, at the expense of getting into another W575-1/Koester's debate I'll speak a little about the Brown card.

The Brown card was only ever produced as it was for Koester's (or potentially another company that wanted to do a similar promotion that we just don't have the surviving ads for). Thus EVERY Ed. Brown card will have his designation as Outf. as we was never produced by any other company for distribution, ie you will never find a Brown card with ANY type of advertising on the back. I can't confirm the data you provided about the Hoyt pointing in different directions as his E121 Series of 80 is pretty darn tough as he will only be found with the two "rare" backs in that series--you will not find Hoyt with the common E21 back.

Also, I wanted to point out that true W575-1's are WAY harder to find than I think anybody realizes. They are difficult to find, as usually when you find a blank backed W575-1 it has a Henry Johnson back stamp OR it is from the W575-1B set that we have spoken of before that is probably more correctly designated as W501 type 2 but since there is no G-4-22 on top people have resisted the attempt to designate them that way. I have actually found true W575-1's w/o the Henry Johnson backs to be especially tough to find and may actually be outnumberred in the overall population by the Koester's cards themselves as that was a fairly well distributed promotion.

Keep in mind that most W575-1's have the Henry Johnson stamp and those cards were distributed at the same time as the early print runs of the E121 cards so you will not find any of the late E121 series of 80 additions (which a lot of the rare backed E121's are) so you will not find a Hoyt with that back.

-Rhett

[dougscats]

Thanks for the input, Rhett, Brian, and Frank.
I'm glad you quoted that text, Brian; I hadn't quite grasped that when I first read it, but you made it clear: It's definitely not a W575-1.

Right now I'm leaning towards your wet tissue technique, Frank, to rule out it being an E-121. I hope to get around to doing it in the next few days. I'll keep you posted.

Meanwhile, if anyone has anything to add, please do.

Doug

[fkw]

Rhett, one last question...

In my 2009 SCD Catalog, the checklist for W575-1 has an "Ed" Brown listed.

Is it just a misidentified Koester's card in the W575-1 checklist?

It seems like it would be easy to make that mistake, especially back when most of these checklists were formed. Wonder if there are others?

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, I didn't see your post until today.

Basically, it is a "mistake" but in reality Koester's Bread cards really are simply W575-1's, we just happen to know who did the promotion so we know to catalog them as Koester's and not W575-1. Brown was only issued by Koester's--as are some of the other "W575-1's listed in the SCD, specifically:
-Frank Baker
-Jesse Barnes
-Howard Berry
-Ed Brown
-Bill Cunningham
-Alex Ferguson
-"Chicken" Hawks
-Fred Hoffman
-John McGraw (Mgr.)
-John Mitchell
-Charles Stengel (Port)


The ENTIRE LISTING for W575-1's in the SCD needs to be thrown out (and we need to start over) as it is a conglomeration of at least 5 different sets all thrown together. We need to scrap it and start all over again. The 5 "sets" listed there are as follows...

-true W575-1's (totally blank backed E121 type cards-on the same stock as E121's)
-Koester's Bread cards
-Henry Johnson cards (argument can be made that these should be listed along w/ regular W575-1's and tat's probably valid but people tend to want to classify these by themselves)
-James P. Keating cards (same argument as Henry Johnson's)
-W575-1B (or W501 type 2's)

The last one is the one that REALLY muddies up the water as to the untrained eye they are the same but the photo quality sucks and the card stock is totally different so it IS it's own set that has a checklist that is the same as W501 just w/o the G-4-22 at top.

Not everyone will follow (or care about) what I just stated but Frank you will understand what I'm talking about.
-Rhett

[dougscats]

Sorry for my procrastination, but I finally soaked it.

I was advised to immerse it in distilled water, which I did. The paper didn't come off easily, but I rubbed it gently and it came off slowly, like stubborn old wallpaper. It's still not a clean back, looks like pencil drawn on it, but there's no American Caramel Co.; it appears that it was originally a blank back, not an E121.

As we've pretty much ruled out the W575, that leaves it as a Koster's.
When it dries, I'll post a scan.

Here's my thinking as of now: For reasons already stated, I'll either trade or auction it here on Net54.
First, I'll field trade offers. I'll trade it for a big name T206 in decent [fair or better] condition, graded or ungraded. I may do better trading it than selling it if one of you has an extra T206 he's willing to part with. By big name, I mean Cobb, Johnson, Mathewson, Young, Speaker, or another hall of famer in that rarefied atmosphere. I do have a few of them [Cobb, bat on shoulder, Johnson, glove at chest, Mathewson, dark cap, Young, following through], but I need 75% of those names. If your card warrants it, i.e., is worth substantially more than the Hoyt, I'd be willing to add money.

I'm going to take trade offers for 7-10 days; if nothing knocks me out, I'll auction it. Please email me [my pm box is full!] at djdoremus@msn.com, and include scans if you can.

Thanks.

Doug

[rhettyeakley]

Doug, here is a scan of my Koester's Hoyt, which it sounds like yours is...


I know it says W575-1 and "Hand Cut" on the holder but it is not hand-cut and it is the Koester's Bread Waite Hoyt

[dougscats]

I've included new scans of the soaked Hoyt.

You'll notice that I didn't get off all of the scrapbook [see left side of scan, the written letter a, for example].
Also, when I soaked it, what I'm referring to as penicil markings were much darker--I thought it was the original surface, but apparently not--Apparently, there is still a very thin layer of something, glue, perhaps [?], over most of the rest of the card. I didn't want to rub any harder lest I destroy the integrity of the card. And I didn't think it was important to get off the rest of the scrapbook as the back of the card was marked anyway, and it wasn't going to improve the appearance.

Do I need to soak it again to prove that it isn't an E121? I wouldn't think so, but I could do it if enough of you think that I should.

Thanks again for all your help in this matter.

Doug

[yomass]

Rhett,
Isn't Jesse Burkett also a card unique to Koesters?

[rhettyeakley]

Richard, you are correct. The list I have above are cards that are currently listed in the W575-1 checklist in SCD--Burkett was removed a few years back as he is well known to have been a Koester's exclusive.

The known "exclusive" checklist is...Jesse Barnes
Howard Barry
"Ed." Brown
Jesse Burkett
"Bill" Cunningham
Alex Ferguson
"Chicken" Hawks
Fred Hoffmann
John Mitchell
Charles O'Leary (I've never seen this card but it appeared in that set that recently sold and it is on the known checklist)
William Piercy
Chas. Stengel

"exclusive positions" (this is the first time I'm outing these two as Koester's)
--John McGraw (standing) -Mgr. (he is "Manager" in E121 Series of 80 era sets, and new pose in 120 era of sets)
--Ross Young -R.F. (he isn't in Series of 80 era sets and is listed as O.F. in 120 era sets)

[rhettyeakley]

Here are some of the "exclusives" I own...