Banner advertising on the board?

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Posted By: Joann

Old Cardboard has banner ads on their site, and I think it's just fine. Very unintrusive, nothing flashing or jumping, etc. I've noticed them on the OC site and even thought that those kinds of ads wouldn't be a bad thing for this forum.

If for whatever reason it doesn't work out, I'd be willing to kick in a little bit if needed. No individual should have to carry the financial load of keeping this running.

J

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Posted By: Josh K.

who really cares who the advertiser is? I mean I visited probably 500 webpages today and cant recall one banner ad. As for not speaking your mind, I want someone to tell me just why an ad by psa/sgc/pro/gai etc would have any effect on my comments?

If its really a valid concern, then I think the ads should all be non-hobby related. Then we can just ignore them like any other ad on any other website.

Finally, as for Leon defraying the cost of the board, I dont understand why anyone would have a problem with that - I certainly dont see anyone offering to pony up their own money as an alternative.


Edited to add - I do see that Joanne has offered to kick in some money - though she supports the proposed change.

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Posted By: martindl

Theres a hockey board I've frequented for years that started banner ad's about six months ago. That board and this have the same type feel and attracts the same type posters - newbies, veterans, dealers, collectors, knowledgable and not so much. The feel of that board hasn't changed at all. People still say what they think, owner and moderators both, even when the topic at hand is the company doing the advertising.

Based on my experience I'm good with it. At the end of the day its the character of the characters that will define how it works out. I don't think theres a better person than Leon out there, so for me I have no reservations.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I don't think that it is enough.
I think that we should double the anticipated price,
and cut the ads in half.
If the individuals and smaller companies can't afford it,
we can offer "half price days" one month per year.
No problem being a slut, just don't be a cheap one.

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Posted By: leon

If this project moves forward, and I believe it will, then there will be a sample banner ad ran so everyone can see how it affects their computers....consider that idea done....and thanks to a private email from a very nice board member. I appreciate the pro's and con's so far.
regards

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Good evening.

I agree with the majority in that a little ad revenue is a good thing. I have one or two concerns.

From a technological standpoint, would the advertisers have access to exactly who is visiting the site (something that would collect data about the originating computers of users), allowing them to send product-related e-mails to those who visit the board (thereby potentialy abusing privacy concerns)? By placing an ad on this site, could advertisers gather our personal info from this site and sell it to other "related" companies or others who want information about collectors like us without our knowledge? I'm not a techie-genius type, so if it sounds like a stupid question, I'll just post about vintage cards, which I do know a little about.

Thanks Leon for moderating a great site (and to the others before you).

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: leon

Good questions and, though I didn't want to personally pop this back up to the top, the answers to both of your questions is an emphatic "NO". They (advertisers) will have as much info as you put out here just like is being viewed right now. For the record the only other info I have on anyone is their IP address. Nothing else unless they gave it to me from outside of this site. Hope that answers your questions. regards

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Posted By: DJ

I think it's great that you ask the animals before you place the item in this jungle.

Our opinions matter and I would most certainly not oppose to the advertisement as well and you should most certainly go for it. Plus contests are good!

Maybe it will give me an opportunity to guess a trivia question correctly and win Leon's T208!!!

Could you purchase the banner for a specific auction instead of bringing it to the attention on the main board? Perhaps a rotating banner of several advertisers? Just things to think about.

You will get more eye balls and maybe more newbies asking about "The Wagner" and values!!!

As long as it's harmless (works for Old Cardboard) and this site doesn't become a Nascar auto, shoot for it!

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

edacra wrtoe:

Really, the people helping to pay electricity bills on this forum really should deserve preference over some card collecting ruffian "speaking their mind".

I'll take that as a personal jab since that seems to be my rep around. At least have the guts to use my name. And just to live up to it, if you have a problem with me and my posts, then pack up and leave and start your own santized board. The world is not a kind and gentle place filled with Care Bears.

As for advertizers getting preference, Every time there was a call for donations to help defray costs for the board, I ponied up. Leon has not asked for donations, but had he, I would have donated money once again, just as many other long time contributors have. So in essence, we are the people that have hellped pay the bills too.

Jay- card collecting terrorist and ruffian

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I hear that the first raffle will be for Leon's Four Base Hits Kelly.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

I'm sure the board will continue to be great with or without banner advertising BUT you are at more risk with the change.

It will be more difficult for "the moderator dude" to remain unbiased.

The money, as little as it may be, isn't something you want thrown back at you in one form or another down the road. Not sure how, when, or why, but it will happen.

The advertisers out there have plenty of ways to get our attention with mass mailings (email & snail mail), dedicated websites, eBay, our very own B/S/T, etc. Do we really need another avenue to communicate who is who and who is doing what? The "little guys" are already finding it difficult to maintain their own website, perhaps a small ad Old Cardboard, etc.

I vote against, let's keep the board as unbiased and even keeled as possible. Besides, it violates your "no advertising" policy on anything but the B/S/T page

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Jay

It seems like everyone is assuming that we are talking about pennies. How much money are these banner ads going to generate?

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Posted By: Richard

Add me to the no column for many of the same reasons above. Slippery slope, impartiality, etc. etc.

Who decides who can advertise and who cannot? Can Beckett advertise? Pro? Me? Can I advertise my ebay auctions?

Because some people have said that they can participate in the same fashion after certain companies are lining the pockets of the board owner(s), is that a good representation of everyone? Perhaps not.

What makes this board great is that there is no favoratism, no David and Goliath - everyone is on equal ground and can speak their mind freely. If there is a financial interest by some external motive, then I believe that the board loses some of what makes it better than the rest.

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Posted By: leon

It hasn't been determined yet. My hope would be as much as the market will bare. Wouldn't you want to get the most from whatever you are doing? I do think helping fund the Net54 National Dinner is a good thing too....You are invited next year.
regards

ps...btw depending on how you count the votes (not everyone gave an exact answer) they are (as of now)

Yes- 30
Don't care- 13
No- 5

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Posted By: quan

as long as elliot gets his yearly family european vacation and bill gets a trip back to fenway park from this, i'm all for it.

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Posted By: John

Richard, has hit the nail on the head it really is a question of impartiality more than anything. Anytime you are taking money from any outside source to say that they will not influence the situation in any way, is just plain silly IMO.

“Wouldn't you want to get the most from whatever you are doing?”

Absolutely would, and I do every day its called a business.

Where is the line drawn? If you’re looking to offset the cost of operating the site I understand. But what does it really cost to maintain this thing, $250, $500 a year?? I don’t think opening an advertising relationship is really needed to offset the cost, or at least I hope your overhead isn’t that high?

So then it becomes a question of making money beyond the simple day-to-day costs, which I’m fine with too. But lets call it what it is, a business move. And if it’s a business move why not get as much as you can out of it?

Why not make this a real revenue generator, why take one or two banner ads when there can be multiple?

Why not charge a membership fee to all the forum members?? I’d pay it, and I wouldn’t have wonder about impartiality and your costs would be offset. In fact I think if everyone tossed up $20 a year that could also help make the place more fun, and have dinners too.

Why not get a kickback, float or commission fee based on any auctions in which board members bid and win as a result of direct advertising on this forum, giving of course that they were referred via this site? Getting a 2% fee based on winnings could really add up.

Is there real impartiality? For arguments sake, lets say Mastronet is providing you with a $2000+ a month partnership 24k a year. Are you really going to let people bash the living you know what out of what is a current business partner? After all you would like to sell more advertising right? Even if so there will always be doubt.

Why end with just one $2k a month deal why not have a dozen?

Leon, not trying to bust your balls. I for one would be happy to write you check to help offset your yearly costs of course I would want to be a moderator too, LOL.

This IMO could really be a wolf in sheep’s clothing, no matter how innocent the plan may seem. Now if it’s a profit plan and the free ride is over. I’m cool with that but, thats a where a business begins and the non-profit ends, so why don’t you make the most of it, and will you??

Just some thoughts…

Regards,

John

Also for the record, if the cost of operating this place is really that much. I would assume that at any given time. Anyone of us would have stepped up no questions asked, me included.

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Posted By: Richard

http://www.network54.com/Help/?topic=Premier%20FAQ

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- I agree emphatically with Mike Colt 18- I do not want to get bombarded every day with emails from these companies because I post regularly and they would have access to my email. I think you need to state in the contract that that practice would be forbidden. I get enough emails every day from businessmen in Nigeria whose fathers died and left them 10 million dollars and they have chosen a total stranger like me to handle their financial affairs. Spam email is a blot on society!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that's odd because I have a check on my way right now from Lagos. I just sent them $25,000 to certify the transfer of the oil rig rights. Hmm.......can't wait to get that $20 million check from the rightful heir to the Nigerian throne......just glad I could help them out.....

I can be #31 on the 'Yes' side. I would be curious if the ad rates will be posted....So if I understand from above, it'll be a single static banner at the top of each (or most) page? Or will the space be sold to multiple suitors based on #impressions? If you're looking to maximize, go for the latter, not the former........

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Posted By: leon

Barry- there won't be anymore spam than there is now. If you go to any site with a banner it will be no different. I suggest you might want to put a space or something in your email addy wherever you put it, anywhere on the internet.

Richard- it's well known that the cost of the Premier site is $200 a yr in monetary terms....the time I put in to control it is far more than that but like I said I do enjoy it. Thanks for the well known insight.

John- If you read my first paragraph it is to generate some income. I don't know how much as nothing has been set. It could be a little it could be a lot. I do believe that is called business. (I just looked that up).

You said Richard hit the nail on the head and the biggest issue is impartiality. If you read my first statement I already knew that was the biggest concern. Again, I think you are dead wrong. Fortunately almost everyone that actually knows me thinks you are wrong too. I draw the line on the 3rd party advertisers and wouldn't want members to have to pay. That is where I draw the line, since you asked. As for multiple banner ads that's a great idea. One at a time from multiple companies. Wish I would have thought of that. I'll buy you an extra drink at the National for that one.

As far as getting a commission kickback on sales ....hmm...I tell ya what...anything you buy or sell on the BST you can send me some money. I'll take it. Fair enough on that point...and thanks again.

I explained myself on the impartiality whether it's Mastro Auctions or anyone else. Kind of being redundant so I won't state that again.

Thanks for telling me to make the most of it too....I appreciate that....
best regards....(* and you can still make those cartoons of me....no harm no foul)

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Posted By: Jay

Leon--I don't think people can respond intelligently until they know how much money we are talking about. The more money this business generates the more you are beholdin to the advertisers. You took over the board, I believe, because you wanted to be more actively involved, not as a business. If the only way you want to continue running the board is as a business then maybe someone else will consider running it on a non-commercial basis. Otherwise, if the board does become commercial I would hope someone else would set up a vinatge non-commercial site to provide chatters with an alternative. After all, although I like you alot, the board is the chatters, not the moderator.

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Posted By: 3-2-count

Leon -
Count my vote as an "OKAY" . I have no problem with it at all.
Thanks, Tony Andrea

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Posted By: andy becker

i'm not sure why there is a need to sell space on the board.

i would contribute, in a heartbeat, to help fund the board and moderator. i know many others (me too) have done so and would do so again.

the fact that this is an impartial board with no hidden agendas is very attractive to me. why change that? because you can?

this is a capitalistic society, no doubt, but why sell something that you admittedly do for enjoyment? again, because you can?

and why didn't the previous moderators go in this direction? i would really like to hear bill's and elliot's opinion.

if this does become a revenue generating venue, how long will it be before a faction of the board splits off to generate their own revenue?

i like things the way they are now.

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Posted By: quan

jay is the wise uncle every family needs. turning this site into a commercial board goes against why it was started in the first place by elliot imo. elliot and bill have done great untold work for this board in its earlier days, and i'm sure they had many chances to "sell out" but didn't. leon took over and expanded and brought even greater exposure to where it is today. i hope if leon feels like he needs to be compensated for his time/energy into it he'd pass it on to someone else (and not go into suicide watch like bill )...

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Posted By: leon

Please put your names on posts in this thread. I don't mind getting bashed but if I don't know you please put your name. T206 collector please post your name. I don't remember it. I deleted your response. It's the only one I have deleted and won't do it to anyone that puts their name. That's only fair. ....thanks...nothing personal on that one...

btw, I do find it interesting that most of the folks with the biggest issues contribute the least to the board....guess people just like to complain...sort of human nature...

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Leon --fine with me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- just to play devil's advocate for a moment: since a number of people suggested it, would you consider charging a nominal fee for those who wanted to post in lieu of allowing corporations to advertise? After all, where else other than the BST can someone run a part time business without paying a nickel of overhead? I've often told you that I have been reluctant to sell off BST because I would feel like a freeloader. I think people who post there regularly should be charged a small fee. We have to assume that a majority of them are making some profit so kicking a little back would be appropriate. Just wanted to offer yet one more opinion.

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Posted By: Preece1

I don't want to see the board "go commercial". The reason you told me that you took over the board was "for the good of the hobby", not for personal gain (I am of course not saying that your contribution has not been great for the hobby because it has). Any way you slice it, the advertisers have influence once you start accepting money. Like Jay, I would hope another board would go up at that point.

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Posted By: leon

That's a nice suggestion but I would prefer not taking money from individuals. Businesses generally have budgets they can tap into for advertising. I have no issue getting bashed on this situation either. I knew it would happen from a few... I respect everyone's opinion.

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Posted By: andy becker

t206collector is a regular contributor to this board. a simple search would provide his name (btw, it's paul...hi paul).

fwiw, i'm not sure that leon should be deleting posts on this thread. seems a little "orlandoish" to me.

i think some legitimate concerns have been raised.

leon, when you took over this board....you had my support (not that you needed it)....but this a bit self serving, imho. nobody had a problem with you linking your webpage to the main board....but this goes beyond that...way beyond.

and, if you don't feel that i (or others) contribute enough to warrant my/our opinions being herd, then perhaps you should have just emailed the "contributors" and asked their opinions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Not bashing at all. I think you are being extremely sensitive and responsive to the opinions of the board. And since there are so many divergent ones, in the end it will be your decision and I for one will support it. You may get some flak and lose a few posters if you go corporate but I think you know there is a right way to do it and you will strive to achieve that.

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Posted By: RayB

...a banner above the Board would not be objectionable to me. Seems we want everything to function as is including loading speeds.
Leon deserves the extra revenue for years of dedication to this sites maintenance.
RayB

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

From experience, it is VERY common for various internet-related concerns to start off as a free service and, at some point, begin deriving revenue from it through the sale of advertising. I think the issues people have with internet advertising are legitimate, but usually wind up being overblown.

The key is, in my opinion, to make sure that the advertisers understand that they are advertising BECAUSE of the flavor of the site and its users, and that they shouldn't expect that flavor to change in any way.

The flavor of this board is driven by the moderators and membership. Any advertiser would need to understand that it's entirely likely at some point that their advertisement might appear at the top of a thread that's critical of them. But I can't see that any advertiser would have a problem with that - whether their ad is here or not, the criticisms will still happen.

Futher, I'll agree with Griffin's statements about the workload of being a board moderator. I'm all for Leon making as much money as he can at it. After all, WE can all make money from it - why shouldn't Leon?

-Al

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Posted By: ramram

This board can often resemble a soap opera so I can't wait until the first time some bashing occurs and an advertiser pulls their ad. Lips will be flying with "who kissed who", "who broke up with who" and even "who shot who". Could get interesting at times.

I say go for it.

Rob M.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Leon,ill agree to it(eventho i wasnt one of those prolific members you contacted ahead of time) if you split the profits evenly with Elliot and Bill. I think the front page banner should change monthly so it doesnt look like any large company sponsors the board,im sure you could get at least 12 different sponsors to pay the same fee for the front page.So if a place like Mastro for instance wanted a certain month because their big auction always falls during it,then they could reserve it yearly.Someone like Robert Edwards always has a once a year April auction,so that would be a good month for them to advertise.

You could have permanent sponsors for lesser fees(based on page hits) on the B/S/T link,the vintage link site,and the forum rules page and pages like this one im on right now to post a response.

So as long as you split profits 3 ways evenly with the Canadian and whats his name,then i vote yes

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Posted By: John Harrell

I have belonged to the OBC group for many years and we have always resisted ads on our website; however, we have small dues charge each year which covers the cost of the website and we divide duties among a number of people so that no one person has to do it all. That said, I don't think an ad or two will affect the character of this board and Leon is certainly entitled to cover his costs in money and time.

Go for it Leon.

John

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Posted By: Jay

One additional issue was pointed out to me this morning which I think needs mentioning. Many new/inexperienced collectors visit this board not knowing much about vintage cards. Their seeing banner ads from certain advertisers communicates to them that we support these establishments when in fact that may not be the case. Just because Auction House X, for example, buys a banner ad does not necessarily mean that "we" believe that it is the best auction house.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Jay,im not speaking for Leon,just going off the top of my head but would you be okay with the idea if the banners were pre-approved by prolific board members such as you and I and others. Say like hall of fame standards where 75% had to agree with it?

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Posted By: Jay

John--I don't think that does it. I'm sure 75% of the board members would approve most major auction houses(Mastro, REA, Lelands, Hunt, etc.). However, by posting one of their banner ads we are implicitly saying to a viewer that this ONE auction house is the one we believe they should consign to.
Again, I have not gotten a good answer to what kind of money we are talking about here. Is this $10/month for a banner ad to offset Leon's costs or is it $1000/month. While the final amount may not have been negotiated yet I'm sure Leon has some sort of idea what he will be asking for.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Im sorry, but are we all really that stupid to think that just because mastro has placed an ad at the top of an internet website that mastro must be the best auction house out there?

I mean come on - how many other websites do you visit in a day? Are we so unwise to the mysterious ways of advertising to believe that all of those websites support the companies that pay for the largely ignored ads on those sites?

Oh wait, gotta go, forgot that I need to call my agent at Vinny's No Cost Mortage Company - I found them through an ad on ESPN's website - low low rates. Right after that, Im calling my broker at Discount Dan's House of Stocks - found them on Morningstar.com.

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Posted By: Jay

Josh--you may not be but some inexperienced collector could be.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I tend to believe that even the most inexperienced collector is probably an experienced internet user, tv watcher, magazine reader, etc. and therefore well aware how advertising works. Just like I dont believe NBC would rather my kids wear pampers over huggies, I think newbies can figure out that a banner ad is a paid advertisement and not an endorsement. Maybe Im just giving people more credit than they deserve.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

inexperienced bidders that can afford to buy something in Mastro's auctions anymore....given the current average lot sales prices......

I support pretty much whatever Leon does with this although I support transparency if possible on what revenues it's bringing (or at least what's being charged per ad or per impression). I also think that Eliot and Bill should be compensated although Leon does more now probably than they, so 3 way split might not be equitable.....

I would rather see MULTIPLE ads sold at a # of impressions, so one single entity doesn't really 'control' (I know they won't control) all the advertising because I would be more inclined to agree with Jay at that point that it would look like we were advocating a single entity out there. Most of us bid with most, if not all, the auction houses (large and small) and many of us use multiple grading companies (if we grade).

As Dennis Miller used to say.....Just my opinion, I could be wrong....

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Posted By: John

“One at a time from multiple companies.Wish I would have thought of that. I'll buy you an extra drink at the National for that one.”

“As far as getting a commission kickback on sales ....hmm...I tell ya what...anything you buy or sell on the BST you can send me some money. I'll take it. Fair enough on that point...and thanks again.”

Leon why the sarcastic attitude wow? The above points I made were purely for arguments sake. And also to point out to everyone here who is so for it, what others like Jay & Richard has pointed out.

That were not really talking about offsetting costs per say, but about making money via advertising. I think you polished it well with dinner invitations etc. But I know this revenue would generate well above the said $200 a year cost to operate the board. I also remember Bill and Elliot’s days these people managed to maintain the board without outside influences. You want money for your time, understood. However this was a non-paying gig when you took as it was for the other 2 moderators before you.

Is this really a question of offsetting cost, or more a question of making money via the board? You sold it as offsetting cost, but it sounds more like a business opportunity vs. cost/time issues.

So why the change and where does the line get drawn? That’s all?

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Posted By: leon

It was sarcastic as you got that way (imo), that's all. I absolutely enjoy you making fun of me in the little cartoons. I can't tell you how many times I have called my 9yr old daughter into my office to see what you have done to me ....it's awesome. I have an uncanny resemblance to Mr.Mint and that's the only drawback . I sincerely hope you stay regardless of what happens. I could use the time on the board to generate some income some other ways but I do enjoy the board so figured IF I could generate the income, without coming out of anyone's pocket, and the board didn't change, it wouldn't be so terrible. That's all ...and my apologies if I offended you. I was being a little defensive. best regards

Tom- no way would the ad's be dominated by a, or a few, companies. They wouldn't be charged for impressions or hits only a monthly fee....regards also

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Posted By: DR

Questions answered...thank you.

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Posted By: leon

I don't know the monthly rate range yet. Once you cross the line of taking ads I don't believe the amount, contrary to a few opinions, matters. What's the old joke about offering a person $10 for a sexual favor and them saying no..then offering a million and them saying yes.....then it's just negotiating....I think a ballpark could be a few hundred dollars per month for a top line banner....but again, not sure....hope this helps...I think Gil said it best.... once we establish that you are a slut don't be a cheap one. I am almost through with my responses unless I see something new I haven't responded too..... If this happens each person will have to decide what they want to do. I am happy so many folks don't think it's that big of a deal and am sure, regardless of the decision, we will still have a lot of fun.....

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Posted By: Cobby33

Are we taking ourselves a little too seriously here? I mean, we're talking about an innocuous "banner ad" that exists on most every website we visit. I hardly think it's Big Brother-esque, I mean, we're talking baseball cards here, not plotting against the government. I hope that these advertisers would have better things to do than to "monitor" what we post and I know that most people on this Board won't hold back, thinking that Joe Orlando is going to retaliate if we criticize PSA- and if he does-sobeit. Leon has made it clear that he's not going to "mointor" posts based upon who advertises.

Maybe I'm being dense, but I'm missing the point as to the objection. In a perfect world, we would be free of advertisements. But, if this will make life easier for the guy who puts in a tremendous amount of time (and patience) helping us babble on (hi Leon ), then what's the issue?

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Posted By: Jay

Leon--I think several people are concerned with the amount of money involved here. Personally, I want no part of a commercial site. However, others, if the amount of money involved was significant, might want to share in the revenue stream since it is their posts that make the site, as much or more than you running it. If there is a monetary incentive to run a site will there be similar sites that start up--you bet there will be. What will be the end result--a dilution of the knowledge base that has resided here. I would hope that if you need the revenue that you would go after it in a different way and turn the board over to someone who would keep it non-commercial.

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Posted By: leon

I am biting my tongue so hard it's bleeding. IF you feel so strongly then you need to do as you must. take care....