Possible link: Max Stein Postcards and Pinkerton Postcards?

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Earlier this year I sold my Chief Meyers Pinkerton Postcard because I wanted a fancier Max Stein Chief Meyers Postcard. I knew that they used a similar catching pose but the Max Stein had the more attractive labeling/lettering on the front as well as an ornate back.

Due to a trade with another board member, my Max Stein Chief Meyers Postcard arrived today. The pose is identical to the one used on the Pinkerton Postcard. The Max Stein is more black and white compared to the sepia colored Pinkerton version. Both sets are also known for having off-centered images where the borders are rarely centered.

Perhaps there is a link between the sets?
Perhaps a similar situation as the Sepia Postcard set and the Novelty Cutlery set?

Any thoughts?

Here is the scan of the Chief Meyers Postcard. (Perhaps Jeff can post the Pinkerton so that we can see both isses.)




Patrick

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Posted By: Steve M.

Carry the question one more step. Is there a connection between Pinkertons and M101-2.

Here is my Pinkerton Mack and the Mack M101-2 that Toby beat me out of on ebay today:



And Patrick as I recall the M101-2 Meyers I traded you is the same pose as the Max Stein. Am I right?

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Posted By: fkw

I have a nice Pinkerton Chief Meyers, but its at SGC right now. It is misspelled Myers (I guess the same as a T5).

The photos used on many of the vintage cards and postcards are all very common and used over and over. Some, like the Hughie Jennings dancing "Eee Yah" is on dozens of cards, photos, and suppliments.
The Pinkerton Photo cards are not even postcards. I have yet to see one with any postcard markings. As far as I know they are only found with a blank back or a scorecard back. I have owned maybe 20 of them over the years. I have had 3 of the blank backed ones that were used as postcards, thats how we know the age of them, but have yet to see or hear of one that actually has a stampbox or "Post Card" markings on the back etc.

Does anyone actually have a Pinkerton Postcard?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Interesting....I have a postcard that is enroute to me that I won on ebay last week of Roy Ellam in what I believe to be his Cincy uniform. I will post a scan when I get it because I believe it is the same pose used for his t206 card.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

It could merely mean that they shared the same image supplier. For example,
Horner's famous portrait of Honus Wagner appeard on tobacco and candy cards, a
period board game and in the Sporting Life magazines.

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Posted By: Steve M.

The Mack Pinkerton pictured above purportedly is a postcard. I will not know for sure until I receive it from the ebay seller as I won it last Wednesday. In the description the seller states that it is a postcard and was postally used in 1916. I will post front and back when received.

The 2006 SCD, page 287, lists the know Pinkerton "Score/Phioto/Post Cards". It is unfortunate that SCD groups the blank backs with the postcard backs making it unclear which of those listed are in fact postcards.

These Pinkertons, scorecard , blank or postcard backs are not to be confused with T5 Pinkerton cabinets which are photos affixed to a carboard backing. The checklist for T5's is more extensive and the cards more valuable.

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Posted By: Mike Peich

This is an interesting thread, Patrick. First, I agree with Frank and David that the pictures for both the Max Stein and Pinkerton postcards use images that were commonly shared by postcard/card manufacturers. The shared image is what links them. Case in point: the photographic image of Eddie Collins (in a batting pose) is the same on my Pinkerton postcard, as it is on my Novelty Cutlery and Sepia (PC796) postcards. What differs in each of them is not the image of Collins, but the background. The most accurate version of the original photo appears to be the Sepia since it shows what appears to be a stadium fence, and a group of people at the left in the background, as well as a glove on the ground (to the right of EC's foot). The Novelty Cutlery version of Collins has the background with fence/people, but omits the glove on the ground, while the Pinkerton has the glove visible, but the rest of the background (stadium fence, people) is blackened out. (I can't reduce my scans to post them on the Board, but follow this link to view them: http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q218/mpeich/ and select Collins Postcards). Background notwithstanding, the Collins image is exactly the same in all three.

Steve's comment about the 1916 postmark on his Myers Pinkerton raises another question: When were the Pinkertons issued? The commonly accepted date is 1911. However, on my Pinkerton of Mike Mitchell, the following is written in pencil on the back of the card: “Guy Coonn, Mar. 1, 1914”. It could very well be that Guy acquired his card in 1914, three years after it was manufactured, suggesting that he bought it in the year it was produced. Does anyone else on the Board have a copy of a Pinkerton with a written date/postmark earlier than 1914?

I ask because I am trying to create a checklist of the cards, and this thread has me thinking about the checklist once again. Thanks to all, and I look forward to other responses.

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: warshawlaw

My Tinker shows him as a member of the Federals team.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

The Meyer image is also used on his Plow's Candy card.

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Posted By: fkw

Of the 3 blank backs used as postcards Ive owned over the year, I still have postmark info on 2 Pinkerton Photo cards (used as a postcard).

King Cole #203...... Aug 11, 1913 Findlay, OH
Clark Griffith #419..... May 7, 1913 Greensburo, LA

The Tinker above is unusual, the name plate was redone and is larger than most of the name boxes from this issue. I guess they were made over at least a 3+ year period.

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Steve:

The Chief Meyers M101-2 is a different catching pose. His Cracker Jacks also use this image.







Patrick

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Hi Frank,

Many thanks for the postmark dates on your two Pinkerton postcards. If you have any further information, e.g., cards/names, dates, etc., please contact me at my email address: mpeich@comcast.net.

Cheers, Mike

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Posted By: Steve M.

I should have checked my archives.

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Posted By: Jeff Mohler

Great thread! I can confirm that Patrick's Max Stein PC uses the same photo as the Pinkerton pc (he sold me his Pinkerton).

Strangly enough, my Tinker Pinkerton has him listed as the manager of the Cincinnati Nationals. There must have been some effort on the part of the publisher to update the issue.

Also, does anyone have any ideas on the differences between the sepia Pinkertons and the ones that do not have a border, such as the Mack and Tinker shown in the other posts? Of my six Pinkertons, I have four "no borders" (Tinker, Jennings, Rucker and Schulte) and two sepias (Griffith and Myers). The sepias are noticeably "grainier" in the printing which gives a lower picture quality.

BTW, Mike Peich is trying to put together a checklist of Pinkertons. I have given him mine and I hope others will do the same. Maybe we can get some good research done on what I think is an intriguing issue.

Jeff

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The Tinker already posted, Wagner (#872, has a border), Bender (#501), Schulte (#206), Mack (#505).

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Posted By: leon

Wagner has part of a border?

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Posted By: Erland

Lot 746 in the August 2001 Hunt Auction describes a Cobb Pinkerton with a 1910 postmark. Unfortunately, there isn't a back scan to see any print present on the back (or confirm the date first hand). Assuming the date is correct, that could put the cardboard Pinkertons earlier than the cabinets - or at least contemporary to them. It at least would imply that they were distributed over a number of years as several others have already stated.

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/view_lots_items_list_closed.cfm?auction=8&start_number=701&last_number=800

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Posted By: Mike Peich

Adam--Will you please shoot me a quick email with a description of the backs for your Pinkerton postcards. Either BL (blank) or SC (scoreboard) will suffice.
Thanks, too, to Erlund for the link to the Hunt Auction. If anyone on the Board has the Cobb with the 1910 postmark, I would appreciate having a scan of the front and back.

Finally, please let me know which Pinkerton postcards anyone on the Board has in his/her collection. Include the actual spelling of the player's name on the front, card #, team affiliation, postmark date (if applicable), and back description (BL or SC). Send me the informaion at my email address: mpeich@comcast,net.

Many thanks, Mike

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Posted By: warshawlaw

All Blank Backs

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Posted By: Steve M.

The Mack No. 505, pictured above, came in today. It is hard to tell whether it has a "postcard" back since the stamp is still affixed and covers where there would be a stamp box. Other than a very light vertical dividing line between the message and the address there is no other indicia of being a postcard. In any event it was "used" as a postcard and posted in February, 1916.

Anyone think I should remove the stamp to see if it has a stamp box?

Edited to say that time expired on my pic.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I vote for no.

Leave it as is.

Who cares if the box is there or not! I'd rather see an affixed cancelled stamp.

jmho.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I was able to peel back a very small portion of the stamp and there is in fact a stamp box. I can now say definitively that this is a Pinkerton "postcard".