Vote!!!

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Posted By: J Levine

Clarity....

Firstly, many of my Christian friends and churches do not believe that Mormons, Witnessess, Catholics and Lutherans (among others) are true Christians. They actually call them "perversions of faith." These are fundamentalist Christian views. Speaking of which...I know many conservative right wing gay Christian people also who completely believe in their faith with the same conviction as anyone else.

Speaking of which, would people be upset if gay people had taken to heart the notion that being gay is a choice (I believe it is not) and applied under the federal guidelines for a Church of Gay which gives them equal protection under the law?

Also...Jews do not believe in the bible. We only follow the Old Testament (Torah portion).

Second...I am not a Christian hater. I actually know quite a few church going, right winging, god loving Christians who voted no on Prop. 8. They are my friends and I love them to death. They also do not preach to me constantly or force their views on me. We talk, we argue, but we do it with respect, dignity and a sense of where each of us is coming from and sometimes I change my mind and sometimes they change theirs.

Third...Being Jewish, I am hardest on my Jewish friends...I give them more grief about their beliefs and practices than I do anyone else (well, except for collectors of Donruss---those people are just frickin' crazy!!).

Fourth...I am not an Anti-Dentite (I just have an appointment for the dentist today and am nervous).

Joshua

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

YES on Prop 8? I mean, I'm sure there are good people who voted that way--right? People who arrived at that point of view not completely from hatred? Just that marriage is between a man and a woman? Or is hatred the only point of view someone could have used to vote YES........

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Posted By: James Feagin

On a personal note, as a practicing and believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon) I have always relished in a strange way that it seems that both the Left and Right in this country reject us. It has always kept me on my toes and has helped me establish a positive dialogue with friends (none of which are LDS). The way I see it, if you are going to label yourself anything, have a good personal reason for doing so. For instance, with my Obama friends (who I voted for by the way) I state the tenants of our faith and the virtues of Christianity. Not the brand that the "Christian Coalition" espouses, but of it as an intellectual and liberating movement. To my conservative friends, I state adamently that we need to sometimes think outside of the box. Not for the sake of appeasal, but because we are genuinely interested in the spiritual and social welfare of people. It could be argued that anti-Mormon bigotry helped contribute to the demise of the Republican party. To which I reply, godspeed and hopefully you'll be more inclusive in the future. By the way, voting was wonderful!



James (the average every day Mormon who goes to church with Harvard scientists who believe).

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Posted By: jdrum

I think they may have brought in a bunch of southern folk and rigged it. Except, no one from VA or FLA.

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Posted By: Dave F

Well, best case Obama pulls it together and is the next FDR. Worst case he's another George Bush asleep behind the wheel and we'll find another pres. four years from now. I don't think he can literally run us in the ground as a country no matter how hard he tries.

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Posted By: Kenneth A. Cohen

James,

For the record, I have no problem with the Mormon faith (nor any other for that matter). It's just the no booze thing I couldn't deal with. (:

Ken

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Posted By: J Levine

I am friends with people who voted Yes but it has put a strain on our friendship. This to me seems a very hurtful thing and to say that it is simply what you believe is fine by me. I get it but do not underestimate what you are saying when you make that argument. This argument can cut both ways. Christians once believed that the sons of Ham (blacks and inferior) where okay to be slaves, they believed that women should be seen and not heard and have no place in the church, the infirm, mentally challenged, or physically disabled (either from birth or injury) should not be allowed to worship and should be shunned because they are not made in God's wonderful image. All these were once beliefs that good Christians held but are now horrifically looked upon. It is difficult for me to comprehend how a loving person otherwise could have such contempt for another being.



If someone can give me a cogent argument why two people in love should not be given the opportunity to marry that does not involve "because the bible tells me so" then I will listen. I still will not be happy but I will listen.



Joshua

PS (edit added) I don't want to slam James but the Mormon Church was the biggest fund raiser for Prop 8. Again, I have many Mormon friends as well who voted for and against and some who will not discuss it with me...this is their choice. Overall I have found Mormons to be loving, honest, intelligent people that I can relate to on any level.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Joshua,

If you have time to e-mail me on the issue, I would be happy to reply. I have two little rugrats, but will find time to reply even if it might take a bit.

James

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Posted By: JimB

"Contrary to some opinions Christians are NOT gun toting, uneducated, toothless Southerners."

You mean some have teeth? Sorry. Just kidding. I couldn't resist.

I love my many Christian friends and family members including Catholics, Mormons, evangelicals, and mainline Protestants. It is the hatred and intolerance sometimes spread (including on this board) in the name of Christianity that I find troublesome. I won't be silent in the face of the bigotry that harms both individuals and our nation as a whole.
JimB

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Posted By: jdrum

Well said and agreed.

Jeff
More teeth than guns

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Posted By: Jim VB

<<Firstly, many of my Christian friends and churches do not believe that Mormons, Witnessess, Catholics and Lutherans (among others) are true Christians.>>

Josh,

And those people would be 100% wrong. They don't get to define who is and isn't Christian. It's not that narrow a path.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Rhett,

< ...just felt like the thread was getting a little extreme on the Christianity bashing for a minute there. >>


I just re-read about half this thread and I didn't really see any Christian bashing. I did see some ribbing of Richard D. and his extreme views, but I certainly didn't think that was "Christian bashing."

Did I miss it or did someone edit something out while I was at lunch?

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Joshua, I hope all goes well at the dentist today.

Us Dentites aren't ALL bad!

-Rhett

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Penthouse in the waiting room?

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Posted By: Rob D.

Tom,

I'm heading out to see Seinfeld in concert in a few hours. Should be interesting.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

twice here in the 'Ville.............Great the first time, okay the second. He used about 80% same material the second time as the first but still funny. We were in 4th row the first time and LAST row the second. Forgot to take my Tweety Pez the first time though...............you'll have fun.......

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Posted By: J Levine

Jim,
I totally agree with you...I try not to lump all Christian based faiths together as that is an important defining part of many people's lives...that being said, they do define it anyway (at least the fundamentalist side in MY experience). How is it they can define what is and what is not a Christian denomination but define who can practice a simple religious marriage ceremony? You don't see the hypocrisy in that?

I know many Christian conservatives who believe that Jehovah's Witnessess are not Christian but have strayed from the true path. Conversly I know many Jews who believe Jews for Jesus are really not Jews but Christians. Heck, I grew up in an Orthodox neighborhood where they thought I was not a "real" Jew because I did not practice like they did. It is an odd thing how we define ourselves and those around us. It often makes my head hurt.

Joshua

PS Rhett, I actually love my dentist but I am afraid I slipped a filling and it is going to cost me money (crappy school insurance) as opposed to actual physical pain.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

What some here, and across the nation, are missing is that we are all people. The fact that we need to attack one another for a belief or a lack thereof is counterproductive. Why cant we all exist believing what works for us without feeling we need to attack or impose our beliefs on others? Our country has become polarized and anything but united and so much effort is placed on hating and fighting.

As a species we still seem unable to eliminate the bias as seeing people that are different than ourselves as evil or some kind of threat. I find that sad as a person who practices tolerance and is willing to look far beyond the surface.

I find it interesting in posts where some have qualified the religions of their friends or felt they had to. I understand why this was done but from my point of view I would simply state that I love my friends, who are people first. It is who they are that draws me to them not what religion they believe in or how devout they are. I care not what their political beliefs are or if they are gay or straight. Seems so narrow minded to view people in a way where we have to label them with these standards if in doing so it makes us more divisive.

Yesterday was a tremendous day for the US and the first time in 6 years I have felt there is actually hope for us a nation. I knew either candidate would have been a marked improvement over the administration that has ruled since 2000. Both men gave very moving speeches and if you are at all human you had to be touched by what was said. McCain acted with the class, selflessness and humbleness he has demonstrated throughout his career. Some of you may not like Obama but he is a natural leader and has a burdensome job ahead of him. He is compelling and intelligent and offers us a better future. I appreciate his willingness to serve the country and welcome his efforts. He will be the people's president and I suspect we will all be better off during his term.

Greg

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Even though I didn't vote for Obama, I am optomistic. I woke up this morning and the sky did NOT FALL. Go figure!

I will certainly pray for Obama, after all even though I didn't vote for him, he is my president too!

martyOgelvie

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Posted By: GeorgeHC

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Posted By: jdrum

self-interested note. I'm really glad the election is over because hopefully my 8 year son will now stop running around the house saying, "I'm Jacob Drum and I approved this message."

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Posted By: Jim VB

Jeff,

Too funny about your son!

My kids are 19 and 15. My daughter (the 15 year old) pointed out to me today, that January 20th will be the first time in either of their lives that the President wasn't named Bush or Clinton. And to think we could have had Hillary!

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I was doing the math with my son last night. He's 8 and Bush has been in Office nearly his entire life. I told him that he might be 16 before a new President comes in office.. He never understood why they couldn't keep on running after 2 terms... "why not" he said, if they are good at it then shouldn't we let them stay..

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Posted By: jdrum

Jim,
My daughter is 18 so this is the first Presidential election she's been able to vote in. My son is 8 so this is the first one he remembers. It has made for some very entertaining family discussions. Oh the optimism of youth!

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Posted By: Fred C

I guess this could be appropriate... the Obama rookie...

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Posted By: jdrum

Whoevers handi-work that is, excellent job! But Obama is not near that rough around the edges!
Neat!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Jeff,

Well then this will be your kids first time without a President named Bush or Clinton, too. Check and see if your daughter realizes that.

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Posted By: jdrum

I'll ask her tonight when she calls home for money!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Fred,

Yours looks older than mine. Are you sure yours isn't rebacked?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

THANK YOU GEORGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's about dang time someone gave me more cowbell!

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Posted By: Bob

For the first time in 50 years there isn't a Bush or Dole in elective office according to one commentator last night.
Jeff- A lot of really nice, intelligent, cultured and very personable Southerners voted for McCain; however, most of the more vocal haters went with McCain and Bible Spice also. Even McCain himself said he was sickened by the angry and venemous sentiments of some of his supporters, many whipped in to a frenzy by Governor Bullwinkle. One poll said that 20% of the McCain supporters in the South identified Obama's faith as "Muslim" and 16% stated he was a "terrorist." That's scary. Also scary is the fact that one of the two alleged conspirators to assasinate Obama and several African-Americans, was born and raised in West Helena, AR, my State. There are a lot of whackos and nut jobs out there who are haters and I pray that they keep their assault weapons in their basements and let Obama proceed with the huge task ahead. There is a New South which seems to never get mentioned and I get as bent out of shape about the stereotypes of Southerners as anyone down here, but when I saw some of the anti-Obama people spewing their hatred I couldn't help believe that some of them were the sons and daughters and grandsons and grandaughters of those people in the black and white films we have all seen deluging Blacks with fire hoses, beating them up (and worse) in the name of God, Christianity and Right. The South has traveled a distance but we are not yet where we need to be, (nor is the East, North or West for that matter).

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Posted By: DeanH3

OK, I don't like to get into political discussions but I must reply. Why is it if you vote yes on 8 then you are a hater? I don't get that. I voted yes on 8. I don't have anything against gay people. They can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home. They already have the same rights as everybody else. I just don't want it called a "Marriage". That's just my opinion and belief. I was able to voice my opinion by voting. And the majority agreed. If the majority would have voted No, then I would live with it. Plus California already voted on this before, which it passed, and a court decided to overturn it. If that is the case, why vote? We voted again and guess what? It passed again. Guess what? It's going to go to court again. Why vote on this stuff if it's only going to keep going to court until a particular side gets their way.
Another flabergasting thing to me. California voted no to parental notification for an abortion on a minor. How in the world can somebody believe it's ok for a parent not to be notifed if there daughter goes to get an abortion. Teachers can't give a student a cough drop without a parental note yet that same kid can be sent off to get an abortion without the parent knowing. Yet California passes the proposition for better treatment of farm animals. I'm not against treating animals better but the chickens get treated better than kids do in California. When did we hop on board the crazy train around here.

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Posted By: Steven Finley

Baseball. Cards. Please.

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Posted By: DMcD

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Posted By: jdrum

I understand where you are coming from. But your original post did not contain your explanation, just the Geographical Profiling. And you should always be wary of who the news puts on as the "face" of anything. Do you think the woman who was quoted as saying that now she didn't have to worry about putting gas in her car or paying her mortgage reflected the views of the average Obama supporter? Of course not.

BTW: The other co-conspirator was from Paris, TN where my Father-in-Law was born and raised and about 30 miles from where I went to college.

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Posted By: Joann

Dean,

I have to disagree with your statement that gays already have all the rights anyways. They might in areas of housing and employment, especailly in California, but they most certainly do not have inherent spousal rights at all.

As to why these things keep going back to court in California after people have voted on it, it's because a court will strike down an unconstitutional law regardless of whether it was propery enacted by a legislature or citizen vote.

Think about the Bill of Rights at the federal level, which exists for exactly the kinds of reasons you are frustrated about - people vote something in but courts shoot it down. The Founding Fathers knew that some rights are so important that they had to be put beyond the reach of politicians, beyond the reach of the majority, beyond the reach of a mob mentality and beyond the reach of people that would vote them away for others. So the rights in the BoR can only be revised by Constitutional amendment - a much much tougher thing to do that has to much more clearly reflect the very stable and unified fabric of social structure and not just the current mood of 50% + 1.

Some of the states are now struggling with whether gay marriages fall into this category of very basic rights that need this level of protection. I don't know if Prop 8 was an amendment to the Cali constitution or not, but if it wasn't it will most def end up at least back in a Cali court.

(And the whole damn thing would be settled overnight if the proponents would stop using the term "marriage" and use "civil unions" if all that's truly wanted are the legal benefits. As long as they insist on using a term that has profound religious meaning in this country - outside of the legal meaning - it will be a tough haul.)

J

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I don't have anything against straight people. Some of my best friends are straights. They can do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home. I just don't want it called a "Marriage". From now on, I'm going to refer to straight marriage as "civil union." You can still have all the legal rights, though.

The term "Marriage" is a legal one that happens to also have profound religious meaning to many. It is not simply a religious term. There is absolutely no non-religious reason for gay marriage to be any different from straight marriage. None. Marriage is marriage. Calling it "civil union" still says, very loudly, that one couples' "civil union" is less than another couples' "Marriage."

I agree that it will be a long haul for gay marriage to be completely equal to any other marriage, but it was also a long haul to go from separate drinking fountains to President Obama. Long haul or not, justice and equality are possible in this country. Even if you're gay.

Today, many straight couples will go down to their local courthouse to get married by a justice of the peace. Even if they are not religious, they are still getting married. They are not getting "civil-unioned." Are they any less married than someone who gets married in a church by a priest or minister? Shouldn't their marriage be viewed as less than your full-blown religious matrimony?

Unless you are a closet homosexual who is in a straight marriage in order to hide the truth from yourself and those around you, what possible reason could you have to care about who someone else marries? How could it possibly lessen the legitimacy of your marriage?

Didn't Arkansas just make it illegal for gay couples to adopt? Yes, gay people have it so good in this country. All the rights straight people have, plus no discrimination against them. Also, they never have to worry about being pistol-whipped and left for dead tied to a fencepost, or any other harm coming to them simply because of who they are.

It really sounds great to be gay in 2008 America. It's a wonder more Americans aren't making the "choice" to be gay.

-Ryan

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Posted By: J.McMurry

I knew this post was in trouble with the first comment on how "civil" it was.
It took just 32 posts before it took a nose dive.

I'm relatively new to this board compared to most of you,but I've never read a post that ran the gamut of causing me to feel elated,hopeful,angry,sad and insulted,so congrats on that feat. This thread is the perfect example of why the country is struggling right now,and that is that there are too many factions that are all demanding something different and we all know that you cant please everybody. The country today is run by Professional Politicians, think about that word,PROFESSIONAL POLITICIANS, They only serve themselves and those that can do something for them. B.O. may be different,but I have my doubts since he appears to be stocking his cabinent with Clinton retreads,but I pray that he succeeds for all our sakes.

I have a little side hobby in which I am always keeping an ear out for profound quotes, so I'll leave you with two.

"I know theres racism in the world,but if there is a goal that I really want to achieve, there aint no man in this world gonna keep me from it."

Charles Barkley

"The "South" starts at the Canadian border."
Spike Lee

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Posted By: GeorgeHC

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

I know its just symantics but,

Gay men and straight men in California have equal RIGHTS!

Both have the RIGHT to marry a women.

Neither can legally marry a man.

EQUAL RIGHTS!

I know its just symantics but worth mentionnig.

mco

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Posted By: Fred C

I'm a little confused here. Obama is the first "black" man elected as president. Let me see, wasn't his mother "white"? Does that make him the first non "complete white" person to be elected or is he the first "black" man to be elected? Is this something that society believes? If you are only half "white" then you are automatically pooled with the other half of your ethnicity? Ok, maybe a little to "deep" in thought here... time for an early morning cocktail...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

"time for an early morning cocktail... "

That is the best advice I have ever read on Net54

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I think that bi-racial people may choose what race they want to consider themselves to be. It is apparent that Obama chose to be African-American, ab initio.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Marty,

I don't know what symantics are, but your statement is not just semantics. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to post what it actually is, but it's much, much more than semantics.

Also, I don't think either can legally marry a women. Women is the plural of woman. Or it is legal now to be extra-hetero and have several wives?


Steve, do you think Obama or any other dark-skinned, half-black half-white person with an afro could choose to be white?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"Steve, do you think Obama or any other dark-skinned, half-black half-white person with an afro could choose to be white?"

Yes

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Posted By: James Feagin

Ryan,

I know you are a compassionate, nice person. However, when you become the grammar police...it appears condescending and belittles the point the other person is making, no matter if you agree with it or not. For the record, I agree with exactly one-half of your initial argument. The other half strikes me as incorrect, but am thinking it over and trying to come to resolution on it within myself.

Well spewed,

James

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Ryan,
My point is, all men in California have equal RIGHTS! Gay men are asking for Additional RIGHTS.

nothing more, nothing less.

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Posted By: J Levine

More clarity...

First...For those of you that say Civil Unions are just as good and have equal rights are just plain wrong.

People who are married have several advantages. They can file joint tax returns and get tax benefits that are not allowed under Civil Unions.

Married persons are established as kin. Meaning that a gay couple must create legal contracts that arrange things like medical care, death benefits, wills, etc. that are given freely to married couples. This cost alone often precludes people from doing this.

Civil Unions are not recognized by other states. If a person moves to another state the civil union has not validity. Marriages are recognized across state lines.

Civil Unions are not equal rights.

Second...for those of you who say the majority spoke and the rest of us should just accept that are surprisingly short sighted.

Try this scenario...You are driving along your local street where you are t-boned by a truck and paralyzed from the waist down. The majority of people in this country are able bodied individuals where handicap parking, bathrooms, etc. are more of an annoyance than useful. If we go by the logic of the majority is always correct then you as a parapalegic should just have to deal with steps. Both lead to the same doors so you have the same equal rights. Yes, it might be tougher to get some things done but that is okay because the majority says you are equal.

Seperate but equal is a saying that was used often once upon a time and it seems to have come up once again. Whether you are fighting for civil rights for African Americans, people with disabilities, or gay rights you must understand that seprate but equal is just wrong.

Many other laws are there to protect people where the majority would just as well take away their rights. I think that the founding fathers created the ideals of our country so that it will aspire to help even the smallest minority gain justice and equality. This is one of the great things our country and Constitution guarentee.

Joshua

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

James,

The statement I was commenting on was incredibly condescending to an entire segment of our population, so I don't mind being a little condescending in my response. I'll leave the level-headed responses to Barry and Jim B. Some day I might be able to respond differently.

What is the half of my initial argument that you're talking about?

-Ryan

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Posted By: James Feagin

Joshua,

I'm very sensitive to the feelings of those homosexuals who were defeated this election. I can imagine the majority feel angry, lonely, confused and probably many other emotions. I live in Maryland, but spoke about the pros and cons of this proposition for well over two hours last night with my wife. I do feel, and many of the African-Americans in my neighborhood feel it is quite a stretch though to equate homosexual marriages to the civil rights movement of the past decades. To piggyback on that movement does no justice to either cause.