T210 Orange Borders

[Leon]

Not to try to hog too many new threads but I am trying to rejewvinate (sic ) myself here. I love the Orange bordered T210's and picked up this Burch very recently (from my hometown no less). It seems that every time I see one I think I am going to get a great deal and then all of the sudden at the end it triples in price.....grrrrrr.....I know a few folks collect these....I think one of us needs to quit (hint hint Brian )....best regards

[alanu]

Are the orange borders only in Series 3?

[Leon]

Are the orange borders only in Series 3?

answer:

yes

[shammus]

It actually wasn't me that drove up the price of the Burch. Was that on Ebay? I never even saw it...

Here are my t210 oranges. I was collecting them first and I'm a little further along so I won't be giving up this set anytime soon

t210oranges.jpg

[J.McMurry]

cant blame me, I'm only interested in series 5 (Greenville).

[Potomac Yank]

Staying within the topic of Orange bordered T210's, but looking at the overall picture of the T210 set:

On N54, how many are into any area of the T210 set, and what is the area of your interest?

We know that J. McMurry is interested in the Series 5 Greenville.
I'm mentally challenged, and I'm interested in the whole set.

What's your interest?

[FrankWakefield]

Hello there, Joe.

I have an orange one somewhere. I posted it a couple of years ago, when we had a thread about them before. I'd still like us to get together a list of potential orange ones. I think some of us think any series 3 can have an orange border, some of us think only some of the series 3 cards can be found with orange borders.

When I see that yellow one I figure he wasn't printed alone, so there must have been more. And some 1910 kids may well have trashed them because they didn't have red borders...

As for T210 interests, I think I got about a fourth of the way into the entire set, then gave up and sold most of them except for series 6. I then focused on series 6. At present I have 64 and lack 2, Angermeier fielding, and Whitaker. I'd like to find one of them this year, the other the next. I've been looking for years, did find a Whitaker that a board member outbid me on. Then instead of offering it to me when he was ready to sell it (as he'd said he would), he instead sent it off and it was in a Mastro auction. They put it in a lot with a bunch of other cards, and the lot got beyond what I'd pay. Yes, I know it is easier for the auction houses to pile stuff into lots... we wouldn't want it to be about getting money for the consignors, would we. Consignors send those cards in with benefiting the auction houses in mind.... (Yes, I'm still annoyed Mastro piled a bunch of cards together, less money for them and the consignor, but it was less work for them!)

So Joe, please find me an Angermeier fielding and a Whitaker, please Sir.

[Old Mill Man]

The Orange borders do appear in series 1,3,4,6 and 7 as I never saw any in the other series while completing the entire set,in which I did in 5 years or so,not too bad ,aye?

[Old Mill Man]

One other quick note,if you have say the Burch in orange like Leon just got it can be found with the red border as well.So any card that is orange can be found red,kind of like a paralell card and vice versa.I am working on a T-210 article but have a ways to go with work and health conditions but I hope to finish soon.

[John V]

Always seeking ...Series 1 (Columbia)

[oldjudge]

Ralph--I have seen a lot of T210s and don't recall seeing a true orange border outside of Series 3. I have also found a red border for every orange border I have found. Never thought they were a big deal though, just off color in a few batches.

[shammus]

I'm still very interested in the t210 oranges from series 3. I agree with Jay - there may be more red/orangish cards from the other series, but series 3 cards are different and I DO NOT believe it to be a subtle difference in color. The 10 t210s I showed up above all are distinctly a bright neon orange color and all are from series 3. Hopefully the orange borders show up well for you guys in the scan but there is definitely a noticeable difference in person.

I use a database to keep track of every t210 orange example I've seen. So far, I've only been able to track 14-16 players out of the 90 players in that set. However, certain players like Slaven, Gordon and Burch have come up 3-4 times apiece.

[Leon]

Thanks for posting your Orange T210's. I guess maybe I need to back off for you? .... I was hoping someone would post some more of them and am glad you did. For the record these orange ones have a nice premium associated with them...I would guess about 3x-6x from my informal "swag" watching of them.. They are certainly no big deal to some just the way other printing errors are no big deal in other sets.....though all errors seem to be desired by more and more collectors.

[FrankWakefield]

I've seen somewhere between 800 and 900 T210s, only seen orange borders on series 3 cards.

I think completing the Old Mill Red Border set is a task more difficult than completing the White Border tobacco card set. The tough cards in T206 are out there, a fellow just has to have enough money to pay and a Wagner can be had. With T210s I think that just because a fellow has a pile of cash and a yearning for Joe Jackson's T210 card, it doesn't mean one is available. I see T210 Jacksons offered for sale less often than T206 Wagners. Similarly, if you have the money a T206 Plank can be found. To a lesser extent, the same seems true for the T210 Stengel, just because a fellow has cash in hand doesn't mean one is available for purchase. So congratulations to you for putting together 640 of them in 5 years.

[oldjudge]

Here is a list of the orange borders I have: Alexander, Billiard, Blanding, Burch, Firestine, Gordon, Hooks, Johnston, Jones, Kipp, Leidy, Munsell, Nagel, Slaven, Stinson, Stringer, and Yantz. I have the comparable red border for all but Slavin, Burch and Alexander. I have never put much effort into getting the orange border or, once I have them, the comparable red border so these just "fell" my way.

[FrankWakefield]

Here's the only orange border I still have, it is Gordon with Waco. He's beside a normal red border Old Mill for contrast purposes.

I still think this... 1- all series 3 cards can be found with a red border; 2- some series 3 cards can be found with both a red border and an orange border.

I suspect some kids threw the orange ones away because they looked funny, or different. I think there were fewer orange ones to start with, and that they were more susceptible to attrition.

I don't know what to think about those yellow borders.




What's in Gordon's left hand? A brush???

[DixieBaseball]

I have been collecting the T210's for several years now, and have seen hundreds, but never saw a Orange Border outside Series 3. If one exists outside series 3, I would love to see a scan. I concur with Frank as well, putting the T210 set together has to be more difficult than T206. How much more difficult, I have no idea, but just putting together Series 6,7, & 8 can keep a man busy for a decade. Ralph - My hat is off to you for putting the entire set together in 5 years. That is remarkable. What year's did you put it
together ?

Regards,

JJ

P.S. - Brian - Nice Slaven !

[Old Mill Man]

Jay,
As for the series I indicated I know series 3 is the most plentiful but the other series I listed had the orange borders as well but not as many per series and I have even seen a series 2 now and then so they come out of the wood work.As for the years I started the t-210's in 1982 and was done shortly after my Grandfather's death in 87.I know of only one other collector who did it first but it took him longer to do it and the way he housed the cards was with the old black photo pages with 4 slits for each corner and I know of another collector who is one short of them all.I am working on a article as to the cards players,the ones who made it to the big leagues.The Joe Jackson card in which I personally owned 5 at one time and the Stengel is tougher to find.I went through thousands of cards and I did it when there was no internet which I think is remarkable and I wish I had the photo's of the cards on computer ,I do have some photo's of some of my favorite old mills but the pics are so small.The one thing about the T-210 cards is they are not as colorful as t-206's in which makes them less popular but if you want a challenge try doing the entire set and see if you can do it,I guarantee you won't do it in 5 years because the computers make the competeition so much greater,back in my time it was mail auctions and I had help with veteran dealers and I was able to chat with one Bill Haber and I have somewhere in my possesion a photo of his cards in the black photo paper along with his stengel card but they are in B&W as we had no scanners back then.As for how many Jackson's exist I can't put a actual number on it but at one time I knew of 12 my five,4 with one other veteran collector and three with another,I am guessing 25 or more and I will say that Stengel T-210 cards are less plentiful. Just my opinions.If you have more to add please do as I loved these cards and they still are my favorites.

[oldjudge]

Ralph--I would love to see a scan of a non-Series 3 orange border card. As for the scarcity of Stengel my experience has been the opposite of yours. I think Stengel is one of the more common Series 6 cards. Maybe it's just a function of what you run into. I look forward to your article.

[shammus]

Jay,

Thank you for sharing that info with us. I never knew which ones you had so I made a note of all of those in my database. Five of the cards you mentioned are cards I did not have in my records as being an orange border so that's definitely some progress right there.

I'll go ahead and share a bit of what I've tracked. I won't mention who the owners are or what they paid because that info is private. Here is a population report that I've put together thus far - 42 cards total across what now consists of 20 known series 3 players with the orange border variation --

Slaven 4
Gordon 4
Firestein 4
Burch 3
Johnston 3
Curry 2
Leidy 2
Thebo 2
Nagel 2
Blanding 2
Hooks 2
Stringer 2
Jones 2
Yantz 2
Northen 1
Alexander 1
Billiard 1
Kip 1
Munsell 1
Stinson 1

I've already added the cards of several board members to my records. If anyone thinks they've got one that I've missed, feel free to let me know!

-Brian

[shammus]

Also, not positive on this but I don't think I've ever seen what some people refer to as a true yellow bordered t210. The Thebo Leon has is pretty close it seems. The Jones I have pictured (The really rough card) has a bit of yellow in it and I used to own a Slaven that had a lot of wear on the front but also had yellow in the borders. Apparently the true yellow bordered t210s don't have traces of any orange or red anywhere?? I'm I correct in this or is the Thebo that Leon pictured about as yellow as these cards get?

[Old Mill Man]

Jay,
Are your saying there are more Stengel T-210's than Jackson T-210's?I have I believe the(LIST) first batch of T-210 cards I bought I believe it was 125 diff. cards and I still may have that list and in the batch was my first Joe Jackson card as the Stengel card did allude me for sometime.This is something that we could go back and forth on,I am saying it is my opinion that there are less Stengel cards than that of Jacksons and yes it could be of the way a person gets lucky in finding the card.Why was Stengel so difficult for myself with one copy but Jackson was easy (5) copies?I don't know the actaual answer but based on theory that would prove to be a numbers game as scarcity versus popularity.Correct???As for the photo's I wish I had them too but on my list they may be marked off indicating border color I will have to check.As for what Brian has done with the Orange Border list it is good.I agree that these are only ink tone variations and nothing more and why couldn't a T-210 card be found in orange border other than 3,they do exists.Brian maybe you should make a asterisk for Slaven as he has been seen in Yellow,Orange and Red,he has quite the wardrobe

[FrankWakefield]

I find threads like this one MUCH more interesting than some of the other stuff we (including me) do...

So what is that in Gordon's left hand???

In 1910 Brooks Gordon hit .205 in 73 games for the Waco Navigators. He also managed the team.

Gordon was a player for 9 seasons (1904 to 1914, with gaps), records show that he managed 8 seasons (1903 to 1914, with gaps), and in 1911 he was designated a substitute umpire for the Texas League.

[Old Mill Man]

Frank,
I agree it is these kinds of posts that are so interesting,what the photo indicates etc... Maybe he has a pack of cigg. or a book in his hand good observation.I love the card of Kelley Mascot with the bat being way too big for him.There are many unsolved tidbits and these posts are fun and can make these posts more enjoyable.I am going to see if I can find my older pics of some of the interesting T-210 cards(They are small) so others can see that some of the photo's matched the T-209 B&W's.I may do that later.

[oldjudge]

Ralph--We are both recounting anecdotal evidence. When I was working on the set I had, for a fleeting few moments, three Stengels but no Jackson. There are some cards that are in Series 6 that are true rarities (Frank and other collectors of this series can attest to that) but Stengel is not one of those cards. He is popular (as is Jackson) so, at any one moment in time, it may be tough to find one of his cards, but compared to some other cards in Series 6 he is "easy". And yes Ralph, I believe that there are more Stengels than Joe Jacksons, and many less of each than there are Wagners.

[Old Mill Man]

Jay,
Thank-you for the last post.The Stengel and Jackson cards back then were much cheaper,the first Jackson I paid $125.00 for and I think the Stengel was $75.00,the other cards were around $5.00 a pop and yes I agree with your last post and I always enjoy your post and digest the info.
Thanks Again.

[wonkaticket]

Great card Leon then again I'm biased towards this card...

[Rob D.]

Ralph, Jay and Brian,

Thanks for the great information you have provided in this thread. Good stuff!

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I find threads like this one MUCH more interesting than some of the other stuff we (including me) do...

So what is that in Gordon's left hand???

In 1910 Brooks Gordon hit .205 in 73 games for the Waco Navigators. He also managed the team.

Gordon was a player for 9 seasons (1904 to 1914, with gaps), records show that he managed 8 seasons (1903 to 1914, with gaps), and in 1911 he was designated a substitute umpire for the Texas League.

*
*

Frank, I may be all wet, and it wont be the first time ... but
In his right hand, I'm looking at a catchers mitt, and his left hand is holding a box containing a new baseball.

What do you guys think?
Joe

[Old Mill Man]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I find threads like this one MUCH more interesting than some of the other stuff we (including me) do...

So what is that in Gordon's left hand???

In 1910 Brooks Gordon hit .205 in 73 games for the Waco Navigators. He also managed the team.

Gordon was a player for 9 seasons (1904 to 1914, with gaps), records show that he managed 8 seasons (1903 to 1914, with gaps), and in 1911 he was designated a substitute umpire for the Texas League.

Yes Frank and he had 40 hits that season and 2 went for doubles and 2 for homeruns so 36 singles.As for Mr. Burch who in 1910 played for the Houston Buffalo's of the texas league he Batted .212.So those two hit for low averages but still nice cards and the fun is learning the stats of each subject.
Does anyone know who the third most popular T-210 card is Going by STATS?Hint:It is not Hank Gowdy.

[sb1]

In my experience of collecting this set for over 10 years before letting someone enjoy the completion of the set I had bought and sold 5 Stengels. I got 2 in one all series 6 deal of about 80 cards.

The Jackson always eluded me, I was the bridesmaid in several auctions.

Scott

[Old Mill Man]

Scott,
I guess it just must be if you get the right deal but the Jackson was easier for me than Stengel.It could of been a certain time or area the cards were purchased,one will never know.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I find threads like this one MUCH more interesting than some of the other stuff we (including me) do...

So what is that in Gordon's left hand???

In 1910 Brooks Gordon hit .205 in 73 games for the Waco Navigators. He also managed the team.

Gordon was a player for 9 seasons (1904 to 1914, with gaps), records show that he managed 8 seasons (1903 to 1914, with gaps), and in 1911 he was designated a substitute umpire for the Texas League.

*
*

Frank, the more I look at Gordon's left hand, the more it looks like a baseball box.
It's too big to be an Old Mill cigarette slide box, and too small to be a book.
Any thoughts.

[FrankWakefield]

Ralph, maybe you miss my point about Gordon. He'd been in the league since 1903, managing and playing. The one season that he isn't playing (an injury maybe?) the league president designates him as an alternate umpire for the league. Seems to me he must have been fairly well thought of in Texas League circles. I was not belittling his batting average, that's better than I hit in the minors. I think Gordon had a significant role in baseball in Texas when the red border set was released.

And Joe, I'm believing your baseball box idea. At first I thought the box a bit rectangular, but it does look consistent with a cube, and it is the size of a baseball box.

[Old Mill Man]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Ralph, maybe you miss my point about Gordon. He'd been in the league since 1903, managing and playing. The one season that he isn't playing (an injury maybe?) the league president designates him as an alternate umpire for the league. Seems to me he must have been fairly well thought of in Texas League circles. I was not belittling his batting average, that's better than I hit in the minors. I think Gordon had a significant role in baseball in Texas when the red border set was released.

And Joe, I'm believing your baseball box idea. At first I thought the box a bit rectangular, but it does look consistent with a cube, and it is the size of a baseball box.

Frank,
I was not putting down his average I was just saying it was low but low or high these cards all tell a story and that is the part I enjoy.And I thank-you for the info .

[FrankWakefield]

Yes sir, Ralph. I agree with that. These guys were ballplayers, they were people. There's more to them than a box on a checklist.

[Old Mill Man]

Frank you are so right in that statement and when collecting these cards I would research each player and somewhere in my house I have the checklist of all 640 which includes birthdate and place and Death dates.I found that list to be very important and I know it is around here somewhere,when I find I can share with others that love this grand set of 'lil red borders.Good luck in finding the last 2 in series 6.

[oldjudge]

How about this for a theory--the orange borders were not a mistake, it was an experiment at making a new border color. They produced some of the series in orange, it was not popular and they stopped. Now, how do you make the color orange--you blend yellow and red. The yellow borders reflect a print run when the fellow mixing the orange either ran out of or forgot the red so only yellow was used instead of a red/yellow mixture. It's a stretch, but I guess it is possible. This happens a lot in the 1948 Leaf football set. The green used on Eagles cards was made by mixing blue and yellow. Many Eagles cards that should be green can be found in all shades from pure yellow to pure blue. Of course, no set had worse quality control than the 1948 Leaf football set.

[DixieBaseball]

Frank - I noticed the catcher's mitt as well, so I assumed that he was holding a box with a baseball in it. Then it appears to rectangle as someone suggested, so I thought it might be a brush to clear off the plate, but then I thought, mitt in hand, 2 Boxes with baseballs, like a snapshot before the game was about to start, etc..

So I would go with 2 boxes of baseballs as my 1st theory, and a plate brush as a second theory.

Lastly, I trully appreciate reading this thread and the time period when Ralph, Jay, Frank, etc. collected their T210's. (Ralph - 80's, Jay - I am guessing 90's for the most part) As Ralph suggested, what a different place in time for collecting these gems. I have been collecting the T210's pretty hard (Mostly Series 8) for 6 years or so, and I find it incredibally challenging just collecting this series and I have not passed on much either. No doubt, the internet has spawned competition, access, etc. and the day of putting this set together may have come and gone in my humble opinion. Putting a series together may be more realistic.

Here's one of my favorite T210-6's and teamate of Stengel... This player's pose (Chase of Maysville, Ky) suggest that he is better than you and he can prove it on the diamond... Gotta love it !

Keep the Thread going guys - Interesting Read -

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

How about this for a theory--the orange borders were not a mistake, it was an experiment at making a new border color. They produced some of the series in orange, it was not popular and they stopped. Now, how do you make the color orange--you blend yellow and red. The yellow borders reflect a print run when the fellow mixing the orange either ran out of or forgot the red so only yellow was used instead of a red/yellow mixture. It's a stretch, but I guess it is possible. This happens a lot in the 1948 Leaf football set. The green used on Eagles cards was made by mixing blue and yellow. Many Eagles cards that should be green can be found in all shades from pure yellow to pure blue. Of course, no set had worse quality control than the 1948 Leaf football set.

Interesting theory. If you're correct, what does that say then about the T206 orange-variation Cobb?

[oldjudge]

Corey--To echo Sergeant Schultz, when it comes to T206's, "I know nothing". Wouldn't you think in T206s it would more likely be a little yellow getting inadvertently mixed in with the red? I don't have a clue.

[barrysloate]

There are a number of T206's issued with red backgrounds that have orange counterparts. I auctioned off a Frank Chance red portrait that was clearly orange. I would say it was just an inking problem and not intentional.

[John V]

Is anyone aware of reference material, such as described by Ralph, that provides more detail on the lives of the T210 players?
Ralph,
I hope you can locate what you have.
John

[cfc1909]

Google the names and put baseball player after the name-

example Simon Nicholls-gives you many people with this name

Simon Nicholls baseball player -gives you a nice SABR bio

[Old Mill Man]

John,
Yes I too hope I can find that list as it is a one of a kind but from my research I have a lot of birthdates and info for the players.If you need any info on a certain T-210 send me a PM and I will try and help you out.Remember the Cantwell,Dwyer and Merchant are the toughest to locate.