Do we trust them now?

Just looking through Fee Bay for some 205's and ran across a group of ISA graded cards. To my surprise there is a very attractive Matty Cycle 1 loss in a ISA 5. Could this be trusted?


http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-t205-Cycle-...0#ht_542wt_907

[Ohio_Collectibles]

I've been looking over the site and some of their cards on ebay. The hobby endorsements, if true, are excellent. From the cards I have seen on ebay their "eye" for grading looks excellent.

~OC

[calvindog]

Considering the sneakiness which accompanied their presentation to this board combined with the obvious question of why anyone would have an expensive card slabbed by them instead of PSA or SGC -- I think you'd have to be out of your mind to spend any kind of real money on such a slabbed card.

Edited to add: one of the hobby endorsements is from Doug Allen. Is that an "excellent" endorsement?

[Matthew H]

I have been hearing decent feedback from some friends here locally. I've heard they have a really quick turnaround time (I haven't actually checked). I also heard that they are very consistent in their grading.

Originally Posted by Matthew H

I have been hearing decent feedback from some friends here locally. I've heard they have a really quick turnaround time (I haven't actually checked). I also heard that they are very consistent in their grading.

Thats due to the lack of customers, not good service. What have we seen them release into the hobby that is plentiful enough to determine fair and consistent grading. I personally think the Matty is Trimmed.

[bobbyw8469]

Time will tell if the general public accepts them or not. Me personally, I don't. I guess if I see some of their cards in the upcoming Robert Edwards auction catalog, with substantial bids on them, then I will take notice. I guess anything is possible, because I still see some auction houses pushing GAI crap.

[bbcard1]

They were offering a free grade at the National. I got one graded and thought they were pretty harsh...arguably a grade low. The presentation is nice though.

[calvindog]

Isn't this the company that unilaterally put 'ads' of REA and other companies on its website in order to give the appearance that those companies had actually taken out the ads? And only after repeated demands by REA were they removed? Sorry, we have enough frauds in this hobby, I don't think we need another.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Isn't this the company that unilaterally put 'ads' of REA and other companies on its website in order to give the appearance that those companies had actually taken out the ads? And only after repeated demands by REA were they removed? Sorry, we have enough frauds in this hobby, I don't think we need another.

I would bet they are still doing that. I find it hard to believe that their current "advertisers" consent to the ads on their web site. They have removed the guys who complained and kept those that didn't.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's a pretty positive endorsement from Steve Hart, who has always struck me as someone with integrity.

"I have known Jason Koonce for the past several years. He has one of the best eyes in the entire business when it comes to grading sportscards. His ability to spot alterations (trimming, recoloring, creases/marks that have been removed) is as good as anyones! His integrity is also unblemished as he has always came through on his word."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Thats due to the lack of customers, not good service. What have we seen them release into the hobby that is plentiful enough to determine fair and consistent grading. I personally think the Matty is Trimmed.

Looks bigger than the SGC 92 Johnson you like, to me anyhow. What signs of trimming do you see?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

What have we seen them release into the hobby that is plentiful enough to determine fair and consistent grading.

I believe that a friend of mine was speaking on personal experience, not so much on what has been released into the hobby.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Looks bigger than the SGC 92 Johnson you like, to me anyhow. What signs of trimming do you see?

Its without a doubt a bigger card than the WOJO to some but I would rather have the WOJO if its not altered. I said I personally think it may be trimmed, not that it is. Peter you know as well as me that some trims are not visible to the naked eye, especially on line pics.

Only time can tell wether or not this company will takeoff. I wish them the best but am very skeptical. Peter if you say he is what he is I am sure he should have no issues making headway over time. I am saying this about this particular card because the seller has several and a few are A's in the same cond. The cost of an Auth Matty Cycle and a Grade 5 is 10,000K+. Just sayin.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Andrew I meant the Matty is a LARGER card than the Johnson which you apparently don't think is trimmed, so was wondering why you think the Matty is trimmed.

[Bilko G]

Jason Koonce made some big hobby news years ago as the guy who opened hundreds of cases (yes, cases) of 2001 Upper Deck Golf to pull the Tiger Woods RC's. I guess he filled his garage (there were pictures) from floor to ceiling with all the wrappers that he had opened.

Edit- I should add that i am pretty sure that this is the same guy but not 100% sure.

[lharri3600]

Just like in politics a third party is scorned. and it looks like the same thing in the hobby. what makes psa and sgc the "gods" of grading. i say that for this reason, i sent a t206 card to psa and it came back trimmed. sent the same card back 3 weeks later and it came back a 7!! therefore, why can't this isa be invited to the party?? subjective what's wrong with consistant

[steve B]

Any new grading service has to overcome being put in the same group as the ones that aren't even genarally consistent. All the big 3 make mistakes, but over thousands of cards are generally right about trimming, and generally consistent on the grade.

But there's a bunch of grading services that haven't measured up in one way or another. I think I read somewhere that PSA had a collection or database of about 2000 other grading companies. Some probably found it wasn't all that easy, some probably had a poor business model from the start, and others couldn't get it right. The worst of them intentionally never get it right.
Like the "graded" spaulding guide pages one guy sells on Ebay, a screwdown holder and a sticker don;t make a grading company.

I've seen a few others that never seem to grade anything as less than an 8. (Probably actually only 9 or 10, but I'm going easy since I don't look at many modern cards)

So yeah, anyone new has to establish themselves as reliable before their work will be generally accepted.

Steve B

[bobbyw8469]

Here is the first test!.....

http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDet...-ISA-8-NM%2fMT



Let me start by saying I LOVE THIS CARD. But obviously, I wouldn't want it in that holder. What are the odds of me getting it into a PSA or SGC holder??

[canjond]

I don't know '58 Topps football at all, so have no idea if that card is trimmed or not, but assuming that it is not trimmed, ISA has to get a better holder. look how much space is between the top and bottom of the card. It not only makes the card appear trimmed, but also can damage the card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Here is the first test!.....
What are the odds of me getting it into a PSA or SGC holder??

Odds of getting it into an SGC, PSA or Beckett holder? Good. Odds of getting an 8. Not as good.

[Brian Weisner]

This looks like a much bigger problem......

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-t206-piedmo...item2c5865faeb




Be well Brian

PS Anyone else have a 350 backed Magie.....

[canjond]

wow - good catch Brian. What's scary is that card certainly looks good to me.

[bobbyw8469]

I guess I am unaware of the issue to spot the problem. What exactly is wrong with the Magie?

[canjond]

Magie error cards can ONLY be found with 150 backs. The ISA one in question has a 350 back.

[iggyman]

Oops! Auction was changed......okay, never mind, guess it was a pop quiz. A+ for you Brian!

I believe they just got lapped by Beckett and gasped......GAI.

marathon.jpg

Lovely Day...

Originally Posted by Brian Weisner

This looks like a much bigger problem......

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-t206-piedmo...item2c5865faeb




Be well Brian

PS Anyone else have a 350 backed Magie.....

[bobbyw8469]

Whoopsie!! Did ISA just mislabel the card, or does that mean the card was a fake??

[Matthew H]

It looked like "Magie" on the front. Not good for a new company. (or an old one)

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Andrew I meant the Matty is a LARGER card than the Johnson which you apparently don't think is trimmed, so was wondering why you think the Matty is trimmed.

No I said the same about the Wojo, "take it if its unaltered". I dont think many super high grade cards are unaltered. I even thought my SGC 7 may have been also but if it was done many many yrs ago maybe it just looked normal. The CJS that were found were from the factory, right?, and they were amazing but we knew exactly were they came from, a set. When a T205 or 206 or what ever shows up for sale in really high grade it throws some flags. Does it not.

[Brian Weisner]

I didn't have time to save a scan, but it looked like a real "MAGIE" front with a funny looking back.... If the seller posted multiple items and made a listing mistake, he could have easily fixed it.... I don't understand why the auction went away so fast...... Be well Brian



PS one thing is for sure.... They read this board.....

[iggyman]

For academic purposes only, here is the proposed fake T206 "ISA" Magie (as was pictured in the auction). I found it, thanks to google cache and subsequently truncated the image to protect the innocent. Looks real to me. Perhaps the colors are a little bit off, but that is nothing new with a T206. The bottom border seems a bit black. Does anybody have a backlight handy???

Any thoughts from the resident experts (even an intern will do)???

t206magief.jpgt206magiefb.jpg

Lovely Day...

[Orioles1954]

Just don't know why there is a need for another grading service? It's not like there's a groundswell of support for one. The "Big 3" is established and I don't think there is room for any more at this point.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Just don't know why there is a need for another grading service? It's not like there's a groundswell of support for one. The "Big 3" is established and I don't think there is room for any more at this point.

Big 2. Big 3 only on Mondays.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Just don't know why there is a need for another grading service? It's not like there's a groundswell of support for one. The "Big 3" is established and I don't think there is room for any more at this point.

I disagree. I think PSA and SGC both have very significant issues, and if someone comes along who can do a better job, more power to them.

[bobbyw8469]

I think PSA and SGC both have very significant issues, and if someone comes along who can do a better job, more power to them.

Amen to that! I am not convinced ISA is the company for that job however. Especially if they are grading fakes. Has BCCG seller found a new company besides BCCG to grade his wares?

[canjond]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

No I said the same about the Wojo, "take it if its unaltered". I dont think many super high grade cards are unaltered. I even thought my SGC 7 may have been also but if it was done many many yrs ago maybe it just looked normal. The CJS that were found were from the factory, right?, and they were amazing but we knew exactly were they came from, a set. When a T205 or 206 or what ever shows up for sale in really high grade it throws some flags. Does it not.

Andrew - 1915 CJs had an option to be issued in set form for 25 cents and two box tops (as opposed to being packaged in boxes) hence why there is a lot of high grade '15 CJs out there. I think, however, you may be referring to the pristine '14 CJs that were "discovered" a year or so ago.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I disagree. I think PSA and SGC both have very significant issues, .....

I wouldn't doubt they feel the same way about you .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Indeed.

[calvindog]

Everyone hates lawyers -- ESPECIALLY grading companies. And apparently some midwestern auction houses. Shucks.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Leon

I wouldn't doubt they feel the same way about you .

Peter is NOT here to talk about the past...

[spacktrack]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Just looking through Fee Bay for some 205's and ran across a group of ISA graded cards. To my surprise there is a very attractive Matty Cycle 1 loss in a ISA 5. Could this be trusted?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-t205-Cycle-...0#ht_542wt_907

An interesting follow up...this card was re-graded by PSA at the Chicago Sun Times show last week. PSA gave it a 5.5...a half grade higher than the original ISA grade. Any thoughts as what it might go for as a PSA 5.5? Would the $15K it was on eBay for as an ISA 5 be in the ballpark?

Also, while not pre-war, the 58 Topps Jim Brown in Mile High was mentioned somewhere in this thread too. The PSA 8 in that auction sold for $2K while the ISA 8 sold for $1500...a much closer price than I would've guessed. The PSA 8 was better centered, but the ISA 8 appeared accurately graded.

[canjond]

Small sample size but certainly encouraging.

[rarerookies]

Look at there list of cards for sale. A 15k card for a knowledgeable buyer or seller should be of PSA or Beckett caliber. Not ISA or whatever they are. Somethings up here. Look at all the gem 10 cards they have and what they are.
http://shop.ebay.com/bccgseller/m.html
1986 Fleer set rc DOMINIQUE WILKINS pop 1 Rookie ISA 10

1984 Topps rc JOHN ELWAY rookie Gem Mint ISA 10 pop 1

Upper deck 1 rc SHAQUILLE O'NEAL rookie Gem Mint ISA 10

So you got hall of famers gem mint 10's graded by ISA then you got the common players graded by becket. hmmmmm

WHO"S FRED JONES?!?!?! And why did they get this card graded by becket and John Elway graded by ISA. Somethings up here.

2002 Topps chrome FRED JONES rc Refractor BGS 9.5 10 x2