Card doctoring video

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dYQV9aYNzkg

Dave F.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave F. Wow.

I think he is wrong on saying he is linked as a Shill Bidder for Mastro...to my knowledge that is Not True.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I think he is wrong on saying he is linked as a Shill Bidder for Mastro...to my knowledge that is Not True.

It's been too long to remember the details, but:

"Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals." (https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/)

Seems that Forman's name was out there, but Forman alleged that Mastro used Foreman's account without his knowing to place said shill bids when he filed his suit against Mastro.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by G1911

It's been too long to remember the details, but:

"Under claims of violations involving the Illinois Consumer Fraud Act, Forman now says Mastro made unauthorized bids to raise prices during its auctions using Forman’s account as well as those of other, unnamed individuals." (https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...-counter-suit/)

Seems that Forman's name was out there, but Forman alleged that Mastro used Foreman's account without his knowing to place said shill bids when he filed his suit against Mastro.

That's the way I remember it...allegedly he used Forman's bidder number without his consent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

That's the way I remember it...allegedly he used Forman's bidder number without his consent.

Yes... allegedly

[G1911]

I was corrected by the evidentiary record (because, of course, there is an actual reality outside of what I think or recall). Only shilling Steve's lots, so clearly not the houses using bidders accounts without their cognizance. The house would shill things not owned by the hijacked accounts family members.

https://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-con...l-bid-list.pdf

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve being Steve Forman.

[griffon512]

Just when I thought it would be difficult to get more cynical, a thread like this reminds me to hold my beer. Intelligent people actually have to spend time arguing with any adult -- presumably capable of critical thinking and accepting of other norms like the merits of pissing into a urinal instead of the floor -- that knowingly selling trimmed cards without disclosure is both acceptable and legal? At some point you walk past the land of "hey, we can all have differences of opinion" and enter into familiar territory of good old fashioned idiocy.

[Seven]

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

It's done all the time. There are countless sheet cut cards out there. I believe the general consensus is that sheet cut cards should only receive an authentic rating, and I believe the major TPGs will not officially give a number grade to a card they find is sheet cut (but see exception with SGC and T204 Ramlys recently), but I can't speak for anyone but myself really.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

This is not my opinion but what I have actually done and continue to do. I have posted many times I have cut up a LOT of full sheets. I also make it clear when I sell those cards they are sheet cut.

What I have noticed is that even though I say when I sell sheet cut card or cards I know or believe to be altered when the buyer resells them they ALWAYS forget to note the card(s) are altered/sheet cut.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

This is not my opinion but what I have actually done and continue to do. I have posted many times I have cut up a LOT of full sheets. I also make it clear when I sell those cards they are sheet cut.

What I have noticed is that even though I say when I sell sheet cut card or cards I know or believe to be altered when the buyer resells them they ALWAYS forget to note the card(s) are altered/sheet cut.

You can only control your own sale.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You can only control your own sale.

Something that I still struggle with when it comes to cards that need disclosures. For a while we refused to sell them because of their potential impact on the hobby down the line. I finally decided that I have to be ethical but I can't enforce ethical behavior on others. I'm sure people are out there doctoring legit cards they bought from us, so if I can't prevent that what's the difference on a trimmed or recolored card as long as I disclose it.

Of course it still gives me pause, but I can only be responsible for my own actions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Something that I still struggle with when it comes to cards that need disclosures. For a while we refused to sell them because of their potential impact on the hobby down the line. I finally decided that I have to be ethical but I can't enforce ethical behavior on others. I'm sure people are out there doctoring legit cards they bought from us, so if I can't prevent that what's the difference on a trimmed or recolored card as long as I disclose it.

Of course it still gives me pause, but I can only be responsible for my own actions.

That's all you can reasonably do, I agree.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

I would not consider those legit, I guess. Since we're talking hypotheticals, suppose someone found Goudey sheets and the original cutting machinery stashed away somewhere tomorrow. Hard for me to accept that a card cut in 2023 should be regarded the same as a 1930s card. Would it have value, of course, but the circumstances should be disclosed. And if that's the case, via Socratic method I think one reaches the same conclusion for any subsequent cut.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would not consider those legit, I guess. Since we're talking hypotheticals, suppose someone found Goudey sheets and the original cutting machinery stashed away somewhere tomorrow. Hard for me to accept that a card cut in 2023 should be regarded the same as a 1930s card. Would it have value, of course, but the circumstances should be disclosed. And if that's the case, via Socratic method I think one reaches the same conclusion for any subsequent cut.

I guess then the question is whether the problem is that the cutter wasn't an employee of the factory or that not enough time has elapsed since the cards were factory cut -- in which case the question is how many years would have to elapse after the cut before the cards would be considered legitimate. Or is it that too much time elapsed between printing and cutting, in which case the question is how many hours or months or years or whatever would have been okay?

[Eric72]

Much of the non-Mastro conversation in this thread sounds familiar.

Discussions about card doctors and the alterations they perform (and, by extension, the altered cards) seem similar to late '90s conversations regarding PEDs.

Fans were excited, nearly everyone was making money, and some players were able to have (or continue) careers they otherwise wouldn't. To those who cared to look a bit more deeply, though, it was clear something was wrong.

At the time, baseballs were soaring over the outfield walls with alarming regularity. It was normal, even acceptable, to a large portion of baseball fans. However, there was ample evidence some of the players were cheating to gain an edge. Among other things, their bodies exhibited traits (such as an increased head size) that simply wouldn't occur naturally.

The long-term impact to the sport still isn't fully known. Steroid use continues to be a relevant (and divisive, at times) issue.

That sure sounds familiar. Let me try something.

Collectors were excited, nearly everyone was making money, and some dealers were able to have (or continue) careers they otherwise wouldn't. To those who cared to look a bit more deeply, though, it was clear something was wrong.

At the time, vintage cards were getting high grades from the TPGs with alarming regularity. It was normal, even acceptable, to a large portion of baseball card collectors. However, there was ample evidence some of the submitters were cheating to gain an edge. Among other things, their cards exhibited traits (such as a decrease in size) that simply wouldn't occur naturally.

The long-term impact to the hobby still isn't fully known. Card doctoring continues to be a relevant (and divisive, at times) issue.

Uncanny, isn't it?

[Schlesinj]

For what it is worth a Ringer Podcast Called Sport Cards Nonsense interviewed Evan yesterday. It is about 15 minutes generally at the start of the podcast.

The hosts are not genially vintage guys.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Collectors were excited, nearly everyone was making money,

^ The only part that matters. If it pays, it's fine!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

My guess is most people think it's fine for strip cards and cereal boxes and the like but not so much for a regular Topps sheet or Goudey sheet. The more interesting question to me is the hypothetical scenario in which one comes into possession of both an original uncut sheet from the factory and the original paper cutting machinery used at the factory so that they are capable of creating genuine fresh factory-cut cards from their uncut sheet.

Anyone can buy the same cutters used at the factory. I can't remember who because it was a long time ago but someone did actually buy the actual blades used from one of the major manufacturers before.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Anyone can buy the same cutters used at the factory. I can't remember who because it was a long time ago but someone did actually buy the actual blades used from one of the major manufacturers before.

I've seen that claim too, maybe the claim was that he bought it out of a Topps auction or something. I think it was one of the guys named on Blowout in "the scandal."

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen that claim too, maybe the claim was that he bought it out of a Topps auction or something. I think it was one of the guys named on Blowout in "the scandal."

This was many years ago I heard about the blades. What most can't seem to comprehend is printing cards is just a crap low paying job with equipment anyone can buy or use with very little training. It is far from anything special or restricted in any way shape or form. I have many friends/relatives that actually worked for one of the major card companies for many years.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Anyone can buy the same cutters used at the factory. I can't remember who because it was a long time ago but someone did actually buy the actual blades used from one of the major manufacturers before.

There's a whole range of sizes, and yes, most are readily available, even back to the early 1900's Some small shops probably still use cutters that old.

The place I worked for had a foot press that cut round corners that was made around 1910. And the leather guy I shared a shop with for a while had a similar press.
Paper cutters are readily available, but ones like the factories used aren't small. They'd fit pretty well in a garage, though.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

It's no different from trimming if not disclosed. This is how the majority of vintage PSA 10s were born. And I agree with Mathis in that this is also likely where Fogel's black diamond PSA 10 52T Mantle came from.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Seven

Out of curiosity, because this thread has me thinking; what is the consensus on cutting cards from a vintage uncut sheet? I'm positive that it has been done in the past, but is it widely accepted and condoned? Or is the general consensus, leave history (the cards) as it is?

Selling a sheet cut card cut by a scammer years later without disclosure is also fraud. If it wasn't material, there would be no reason not to cop to it when selling - and yet they rarely do.

Like trimming, I think it's bad. Ruining items for profit is not the act of a collector but a profiteer. It sucks when it turns out the cool miscut on eBay one buys was actually made by some asshole at home.

It sucks more when they are historical sheets, unique or nearly unique and instructive about the history and process of the card creation. A majority of T card uncut material that survived into the profiteer era has already been destroyed or further cut up (T204, the alleged Wagner/Plank panel, T25 panels, etc.). The interest of profiteers and hobbyists is fundamentally opposed here. The tiny bits remaining are only protected, at most, until their owners pass and the sheets sell to be destroyed. It really sucks when history is destroyed for a few bucks.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by G1911

Selling a sheet cut card cut by a scammer years later without disclosure is also fraud. If it wasn't material, there would be no reason not to cop to it when selling - and yet they rarely do.

Like trimming, I think it's bad. Ruining items for profit is not the act of a collector but a profiteer. It sucks when it turns out the cool miscut on eBay one buys was actually made by some asshole at home.

It sucks more when they are historical sheets, unique or nearly unique and instructive about the history and process of the card creation. A majority of T card uncut material that survived into the profiteer era has already been destroyed or further cut up (T204, the alleged Wagner/Plank panel, T25 panels, etc.). The interest of profiteers and hobbyists is fundamentally opposed here. The tiny bits remaining are only protected, at most, until their owners pass and the sheets sell to be destroyed. It really sucks when history is destroyed for a few bucks.

I'm vaguely familiar with the Wagner/Plank Sheet, but do you have a link to the post that summarizes this story. Also correct me if I'm wrong, did Rosen ever find an uncut sheet of 52 topps and then cut them himself? I can't remember. Thank you,

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Seven

I'm vaguely familiar with the Wagner/Plank Sheet, but do you have a link to the post that summarizes this story. Also correct me if I'm wrong, did Rosen ever find an uncut sheet of 52 topps and then cut them himself? I can't remember. Thank you,

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ard-doctoring/

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Seven

I'm vaguely familiar with the Wagner/Plank Sheet, but do you have a link to the post that summarizes this story. Also correct me if I'm wrong, did Rosen ever find an uncut sheet of 52 topps and then cut them himself? I can't remember. Thank you,

The Wagner/Plank sheet is a part of hobby myth at this point. Pat made a great thread to try and peer through he mist to see what could be actually ascertained not too long ago, as if the questions of this sheet could be resolved it would be immensely valuable to research projects about the printing and layouts: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...6+Wagner+sheet. This thread has a lot of good questions, contains what is known (alongside some digressions into other uncut sheets like the T204 Ramly sheet that was destroyed), and a lot of myth, conspiracy theories that the cards are outright fakes, and in some parts outright demonstrable lies about the sourcing of material. Michael O'Keefe's book "The Card" presents Rob Lifson's view of the Wagner and Plank cards and their discovery.

The short version is that the top slabbed Wagner (the same one Mastro pled guilty to trimming without disclosure that some people really want to deny) and Plank came from a sheet, supposedly. This is almost certainly a misnomer, as the find does not indicate a full sheet of cards based on what we know of T card printing. Presumably it is actually partially panels or strips. They must have been cut down from something. Almost everything said specifically relies on a single witness' testimony at each part, and so the truth is largely a mystery with everybody's agenda dictating their outcomes. There probably was some sort of uncut material here to birth these cut out cards.