White Plains NY Card show this weekend

[Robextend]

Anyone going to the White Plains, NY Card Show this weekend??

[T206Collector]

I'll probably stop by for a few minutes, but I have very little business there this time -- no cards to drop off at SGC or JSA. Still, I like to browse the tables and talk to some of the dealers.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I'm planning to go for a little while on Sunday morning. Only about a 1/2 hour drive for me.

[Robextend]

It's about an hour and change drive for me, but I will be there Saturday morning starting at the SGC table.

[JamesGallo]

I will be there all day Friday, I have a lot of cards to submit and plan to look for some things to buy. Should be fun even if there might not be too much to buy.

James G

[glynparson]

What time does it open to public on friday?

[Robextend]

I believe the hours are:

Friday 2-8
Sat 10-5
Sun 10-4

[glynparson]

I will try and be there friday.

[yanksfan09]

Might possibly go sat or sun. Bout a 2 hour drive for me, so not sure yet...

[spacktrack]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder that SGC will be set up and accepting submissions Friday through Sunday at this show. Please stop by to say hello and drop off your cards. You are welcome to use any of our January specials for submissions made at the show.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Hope to see you there!

Brian Dwyer
SGC

[bcbgcbrcb]

Anyone attend the show yesterday? How was it?

[calvindog]

I just got back -- had to drop off some delicate items to be graded. It was my first baseball card show (really) and I'm wondering if it will now be my last. Very few prewar tables, maybe 3 or so. However, the dealers at the prewar tables were so laughably overpriced you'd had to have been an idiot to even consider paying for their cards even after they gave you their super special, bargain-basement deals. For example: one putz had an Orange Borders Tigers card in raw condition but not in great shape. I would say the card has sold any number of times in various auctions for anywhere from $250 to $350, never any more. Anyway, the guy was selling it for $950! I mentioned to him that he was dreaming with that price and he responded that the card "books for $2400." I'm thinking, "which planet is this book on?" He had another Mordecai Brown PC I was somewhat interested in but it had writing on the front and back. The card may have been worth $150 -- he had it listed for $650 but would come down to $500 for me -- after telling me it "books for $2000." Anyway, the guy kind of looked like Bill Goodwin so I made sure that my wallet was still in my pocket and my fillings still in my teeth and got out of there. Another dealer had a badly beat up Tigers team card from 07 with a sticker on it for $950. The card was maybe worth $100 as it had writing on it and paper loss after having been removed from a scrapbook. I laughed at the price and he knocked it down first to $450 and then $250. I walked away from that POS as well.

The question is: is the National the same way? Are the dealers just hoping that some imbecile throws money at them? Is the National similarly just a waste of time?

[barrysloate]

Jeff- I haven't been to a show in more than ten years, for exactly the reason you described. Once in a while you can find something fairly priced but you have to get lucky. Most people go just to catch up with old friends.

We attended the show from 10:30AM this morning to 11:15AM

Whilst we had the opportunity to have a number of super rare
pieces graded by our friends at SCG, the only other money
that we were able to spend was $2.25 on a diet coke

Most of the dealers who had pre-War Cards packed their table with medium
and low grade examples that we have seen many times at prior shows.

On gentlemen did have a common Rose Card graded 80 but his asking price
was nearly double book.

It was good to catch up with Bill Huggins who had items from his forthcoming auction on display. When we asked him if there was anything in the room... he simply said "nothing for you."

He was right. Unless you want to spend time on an autograph line, collect
cards from 1990's on, then you probably will learn more and see more and for that matter, buy more by spending your time on this Board and E-Bay


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

[barrysloate]

I think $2.25 for a diet coke was a fair deal.

[RichardSimon]

Barry - that would depend on the size of the Diet Coke .

[calvindog]

Bruce, the dealer with the Rose PC was the same guy who was selling the Orange Borders and Brown PC I noted above. He mentioned that he sells that Orange Borders Tigers team card for $750 "all day long." I'm guessing he normally lives in Alaska where the days last about 2-3 minutes.

[Jim VB]

Jeff,

You guys could have car pooled, if you have a minivan.


Edited to say: Sorry Jeff. Bruce has informed me, by PM, that he doesn't do carpooling. He's doing so well that he has a private vehicle and a driver! (Seriously. He PMed me just to say that.)


I've attached a picture. (OK. This part I'm kidding about, but the other part is dead serious.)

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I mentioned to him that he was dreaming with that price and he responded that the card "books for $2400." I'm thinking, "which planet is this book on?"

I was there today submitting to SGC and JSA. It is funny when you want to sell cards to those dealers it seems as if they are using a different "book".

And I also find it funny how they will belittle the card in every way just to try and rip you off.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Jeff,

You guys could have car pooled, if you have a minivan.


Edited to say: Sorry Jeff. Bruce has informed me, by PM, that he doesn't do carpooling. He's doing so well that he has a private vehicle and a driver! (Seriously. He PMed me just to say that.)


I've attached a picture. (OK. This part I'm kidding about, but the other part is dead serious.)

For as little as Bruce supposedly thinks of your opinion and posts on the board, he sure does seem to PM you a lot.

[Jim VB]

Rob,

PM sent. (No death threats included.)

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I was there today submitting to SGC and PSA. It is funny when you want to sell cards to those dealers it seems as if they are using a different "book".

And I also find it funny how they will belittle the card in every way just to try and rip you off.

I have to say that getting lied to my face today by this dude was just bizarre. This idea that the price guide's prices (in near mint, of course, no matter the condition of the card) is somehow holy is obviously a fraud. Are buyers off of Net 54 that stupid or are they all unaware of VCP?

[Leon]

The last show I went to was the Philly show, a few months ago. While I had a great time visiting with Teddy Z and got to meet his even lovelier wife, I couldn't buy anything at the show. There was 1 card I wanted pretty bad. I walked around the table....went to a few other tables and came back. I finally got the nerve to ask the guy his price (and this is a big PSA dealer but is a friend too, so I won't mention his name). I know the card was a $400-$500 card....maybe a bit more. He told me it was $1450. I couldn't even make a counteroffer I felt was legitimate since his price was so over the top and just walked away shaking my head. There will be another of those cards for sure. I really don't get some of the pricing strategies. I am sure that dealer must have had a 3x-5x markup on that card. What happened to being happy with 20%-30% profit, or at least a reasonable street price (if they happened to get a great buy)?..regards

Leon is absolutely correct

It is remarkable how out of touch most the card show dealers are.

Except for the National and one or two other shows, we rarely find a high quality card worth purchasing.

Even in sets like Delongs, 34 Goudeys or 41 Playballs the dealers tend to be at least 2x the SMR.

What amazes us is that we have seen some cards at the same dealer's table
or the same E Bay BIN listing for over two years.

Leon is right- it seems that only private treaty with other collectors or auctionsare the only way to obtain rare cards at market prices


Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List
bdorskind@dorskindgroup.com

[JasonL]

This conversation confirms some things for me, which is comforting. But it doesn't help explain to me how it is that I can't seem to re-sell any of my own cards for anything more than a 50% discount to what I paid...Do I always overpay by this much? perhaps.
Regardless of the reason, the card karma never seems to go my way.
At least I know not to buy at shows.
That much I do know.

The shows seem to be simply social occasions for the dealers, because with pricing strategies like that, I don't imagine they sell anything whatsoever.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by JasonL

This conversation confirms some things for me, which is comforting. But it doesn't help explain to me how it is that I can't seem to re-sell any of my own cards for anything more than a 50% discount to what I paid...Do I always overpay by this much?

Solutions:

More bidding parties.

More consignments to great guys (presuming they don't get indicted first).

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Solutions:

More bidding parties.

More consignments to great guys (presuming they don't get indicted first).

Jeff,
I hope yournot talking about Brockelman + Luckey Those guys are True Blue

[bigfish]

I bought 40 cards at the show. Mostly t206 commons, a few rare backs , and a 34 Gehrig. Prices were fair. I liked other cards but prices were high and I just walked away. No big deal.

Jeff,

I happen to be at the table when you asked about the Cobb PC. The price was on the high side of fair. Maybe a 150 card. You did not seem to be a happy camper and I thought to myself. I guess that guy is not having fun at the show. I wish you would have identified yourself. My friend and I had some nice stuff behind the table that you might have wanted to take a look at.

I seem to do most of my deals with people I know who are walking around with cards. The prices at the shows are high. The dealers pay alot for the tables so I kind of understand the prices. I just ask for the price. If I do not like it, walking away is not an issue. You can always find something else to buy.

Happy Collecting!

Toby

[calvindog]

Well, let's see: the card which had an incredible amount of damage to it had a price tag on it for $950. When I laughed at the price -- yes, I laughed -- I was told that the price was actually $450. When I indicated that the card was ridiculously overpriced, I was told that the reason the card was priced so high was that it was "Cobb's rookie card" -- which of course it wasn't. When I ticked off a list of cards that were actually closer to being Cobb's rookie card than that, I was met with a shrug and told that the price was $250. At that point I walked away, not unhappy, just amused at the ridiculousness of what I had just seen. For what it's worth, I have been offered that same card, in better shape, for $150 from someone on this board.

I understand that it was my fault, Toby, for not being a better sport about the blatant attempt to rip me off. And I apologize for not responding to such attempt by asking to see more of the cards of the seller. At that point, unfortunately, I felt pretty strongly that I was dealing with some dishonest guys and I felt it probably made better sense to walk away.

[bigfish]

Jeff,

I found the exchange to be pretty funny. I agree the price was outrageous and the Cobb rookie exchange to be funny as well. That kind of interaction happened to me about 10 times at the show. I don't let it bother me and just move along to the next table. I was not saying you were at fault for anything. You just looked really pissed off. You know your stuff. I would not let it bother me so much. Everyone is trying to get the best of you at the shows. You can always walk away as you did. That is what I do. I would just be prepared for it next time you go to a show. I know both of the guys you mentioned in the thread and sometimes they have good deals.

BTW--Mike Goldberg was holding serve at the SGC table. Thanks for the help with the order!

[Jim VB]

Here's one thing I find ironic. We have one thread going about dealers asking ridiculous prices at shows, and another thread going about dealers asking ridiculous prices for BINs on Ebay.

It seems to me that these are often the same guys, and they are the first and loudest to tell you how bad business is!

As someone who spent 20+ years in the retail business, there is a relationship between price and time, when you try to sell anything. The seller holds the key however.

If I list the T206 Gretzky Wagner for sale tomorrow for $5,000,000, it won't sell. If I listed it for $100,000, it would sell immediately. Somewhere in between those two extremes is the point where it will sell at a reasonable price, in an acceptable time frame.

A seller who prices too high, doesn't adjust, and then complains about poor sales, doesn't understand the relationship, and probably never will.

This industry was easy for years, for some guys to make a living without actually having to be good at it. As things slowed down, some haven't figured it out.

[batsballsbases]

Toby,
I tend to agree with Jeff. I was a dealer for many years and having done that show many times starting a card at 950 then coming down to 450 and then to 250 to me is just trying to rip off the un educated public. What are you really looking for the home run idiot who is just that one time buyer. If your a dealer at any show your there to sell . Set a fair price lets say even a little higher than what you want for it and then if an offer comes on the card you dont look like a fool coming down from a offer that was probably fair in the first place. What is it with people is it that you just want to show you have a high priced card in your case? Especially even if its a piece of junk ? Then when someone challanges you that knows far more about the card then you start to come down? I would always walk by tables and laugh when all these BIG dealers would have thier cases filled with way over book cards and at the end of the day you would walk back and all the same cards were still there! No holes in the cases. So your theory about table prices being high really doesnt hold water because if you made nothing the table still will cost you the same amount!

[Orioles1954]

Jeff Lichtman pissed off? Never! Seriously though, if I were a show dealer I would make a prominent sign which reads "Our prices are just a bit above Ebay, but fair" I am willing to pay just a little more than ebay or bst or whatever at a show. However, I don't want some dealer trying to pull one over on me.

[barrysloate]

Jim made a good point. Many of the dealers in this hobby have abysmal business skills. And like Jeff said, many of them are ethically challenged. Put those things together and you have an environment that is not much fun.

[calvindog]

The problem with this hobby/business is that dishonesty is so deeply ingrained that it's just laughed off. I usually don't get pissed off unless I'm on the receiving end of a fraud. Problem is that in this hobby it happens everyday and is met with a shrug instead of shock.

[barrysloate]

I've been in this hobby for 28 years and I've seen fraud of varying degrees for all of them. You either accept it, fight it, or just go find something else to do.

[bigfish]

I guess I would try to convey one point. I do not let dealers who attempt to rip me off ruin my show or upset me. I take note and move on. Can't control it and it happens quite frequently. That was my main point. Life it to short.

Happy Collecting~

Toby

[barrysloate]

Toby- I respect your position completely, and know you bring a positive outlook to this hobby. But not everybody deals with being ripped off, or feeling someone is trying to rip you off, the same way. My take is shows were getting depressing and I no longer wanted to go to them. But everyone's reaction is different.

[Jewish-collector]

You need to realize that the the focus of the shows has changed dramatically over the years. It's now more of the dealers and auctions houses meeting their clients & consigners & displaying their cards rather than much actual buying going on. If you understand this, you will enjoy the show much more. Jeff - I hope you can make it down to Baltimore for the National this summer.

Alan

[John V]

Ugh! My excitement about attending the National is taking a beating.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jim made a good point. Many of the dealers in this hobby have abysmal business skills. And like Jeff said, many of them are ethically challenged. Put those things together and you have an environment that is not much fun.

Barry has put it so well.
I have been in this business for over 20 years. The level of enjoyment I get from it has totally changed over that time.
I don't have to beat a dead horse and start ranting about the autograph market but the ethically challenged extends to all facets of this business. They have taken the fun out of it. What a shame, what a shame.

[botn]

If someone asking 3 times too much for an item is the worst thing in our hobby I would say we are doing pretty well. I do agree with those who claim fraud is rampant in the hobby however I am not sure that asking too much or even way too much for something falls into that category of fraud. Seems like Jeff is advocating for a Price Czar.

[yanksfan09]

I dont understand why dealers don't set more fair prices to sell as they would be getting cash in hand that day! They wouldn't have to sell over an auction site or be paid by paypal and lose much more $ to fees.

I went there Saturday and most of the tables were grossly overpriced that had pre war. Although I did make a couple decent purchases. I don't mind paying slightly above ebay auction prices but not 2X or more like most ask for. I don't understand the business strategy of these people. Do they expect to get any new customers or make any sales with these prices? They complain shows aren't like they used to be but they're the reason why.

It was also very tight in there (tables too close together), but I still had a good time for a few hours. There was a couple more tables with pre war cards than I was expecting but still probably 90% shiny stuff etc... I don't let that or the crazy prices bother me. I just wish more good people like the ones on the board would set up tables at shows like this and the shows could be so much better. I hate to see people saying they won't go to show anymore etc... I just wish there was a way to make these things better.

I'm looking forward to hopefully going to my first National this year. I don't know if this has been done at Nationals or any shows, but I thought it might be cool if the board set up a table at a show. Sort of a BST table where members could meet, buy, sell, trade...I suppose a table woudn't be necessary but would be a nice meeting spot at least. I don't know...just a thought (probably dumb)....

[Jim VB]

Erick,

Leon's table seems to do exactly that, in an unofficial capacity.

[yanksfan09]

Jim

That works, good to know. I hope I get a chance to go this year, we'll see.....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Erick,

Leon's table seems to do exactly that, in an unofficial capacity.

For the past 5 or more years, Scott Brockelman and myself have set up and had most folks come to our table and hang out (behind the cases and sitting down). The past 3-4 years we have had the privilege of having Richard Masson and Jay Miller take up homesteading with us too. We always have a great time and everyone is invited. As the National gets closer we will let folks know what our table # is. We hope to see everyone there again. best regards

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

I went there Saturday and most of the tables were grossly overpriced that had pre war. Although I did make a couple decent purchases. I don't mind paying slightly above ebay auction prices but not 2X or more like most ask for. I don't understand the business strategy of these people. Do they expect to get any new customers or make any sales with these prices? They complain shows aren't like they used to be but they're the reason why.

Erick, I totally agree, and I believe I met you at the SGC table. I don't mind paying more than I usually do, but when a dealer is selling 33 Goudey beater commons for $30-$40 each, I just scratch my head. When I first started going to these shows I used to fire back with "I've gotten this for half the price on EBAY", but I stopped after it didn't do any good and I would rather not get the look of death from every table.

I walked out of there with a couple good finds in "dollar" bins as well as taking care of some much needed SGC and JSA business.

[brass_rat]

I dropped by the show on Saturday afternoon. I hadn't been to a show in over 10 years, but I thought it might be fun. Prices were laughable, yes, but I enjoyed walking around the room just checking everything out. I dropped off a few cards for grading and went on my way...

In a way, card shows are like stock exchange floors -- in the old days, they were fun, had lots of camaraderie and all of the trading volume. Today, however, everything moves much faster in both venues, most trading occurs electronically, and the information gap (between all participants) isn't nearly as large as it used to be. Volume has moved off of exchange floors, as well as away from card shows...

I think someone pointed out that the tables were close together...maybe a little too close -- a few times I passed individuals that may not have had a shower in a few days...certainly one of the things about card shows that I didn't miss.

Steve

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I think someone pointed out that the tables were close together...maybe a little too close -- a few times I passed individuals that may not have had a shower in a few days...certainly one of the things about card shows that I didn't miss. Steve

I also agree, I hate getting the "People's Elbow" anytime I stopped to check out a table. And yes, it was a little stinky...got to love our hobby!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

If someone asking 3 times too much for an item is the worst thing in our hobby I would say we are doing pretty well. I do agree with those who claim fraud is rampant in the hobby however I am not sure that asking too much or even way too much for something falls into that category of fraud. Seems like Jeff is advocating for a Price Czar.

LOL, yes that is exactly what we need! But seriously, the petty frauds that go on at a baseball card show should only be the worst thing in our hobby. At a card show, however, the crooks simply don't have a chance to do any more damage than lie every chance they get.

One thing that really made me laugh -- and keep in mind this was my very first card show -- were the fake looks of pain, anger and shock that the dealers would give when you point out their easily proven lies. Like the putz that told me the Orange Borders Tigers team card booked for $2400 and I told him straight out he was lying. You'd think that the dingo had stolen his baby.