Questions for Doug Allen

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've always felt that many of the problems that arise from cards either being misgraded, or altered cards getting graded at all, occur because the graders do not spend as much time looking at a card as they should. I have never witnessed a card being professionally graded but I can only imagine a factory set-up where there are so many submissions and so many deadlines to make. Would collectors pay more money to have their cards graded if they felt there was a much greater likelihood that nothing would go undetected? I know that is how it works in theory- if I send a card in I value at say 10K I must pay $100 to have it graded, and in return I am offered two-hour turnaround. I also assume in return for my $100 the card is painstakingly examined, but are the graders actually spending that extra time testing it for tampering? I don't know, but I think they are forced to balance speed versus accuracy as cards have to get in and out as fast as possible. Maybe one of the services could comment on this. Do they feel overwhelmed by too much work and therefore are compelled to rush through a process that really demands more time? Because if the graders could somehow find a way to detect these ironed out creases, these threads would not be necessary. On the other hand, if ironed out creases are impossible to detect regardless of what technology is used, then there is unfortunately no solution to this problem.

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Posted By: Marckus

....and to think that T205's in PSA 8 or 9 actually exist unaltered....

Marckus

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

"Nowhere in the Mastro Auction Catalog do I see any statement advising bidders that certain items in the auction have been subject to crease and stain removal. How come?

Frank"

I haven't seen an answer to Frank's question. If Mastro did this the final value of those auctions would drop significantly wouldn't they?


Tom Papa

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

If the practice of cleaning and wrinkle removal is acceptable I would think a legit business would exist for this service. Imagine the sales slogan...

"Are those tiny back wrinkles turning your 8's into 4's? Come to Moe's Card Cleaning and Wrinkle Removal Service have make those college tuition payments vanish!!!"

Tom Papa

edit: to add name

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Auction House - a firm that conducts auctions.

Sometimes the simplest definition is the best.

Frank

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, but what fun would there be in it for the auction houses if they couldn't maximize their bottom line? I have to say that before these recent topics came up I was completely unaware that certain auction houses take a proactive stance in cracking cards out, cleaning them up, fixing wrinkles and corners, and sending them under their flag to the graders in order to maximize their grades and make as much cash as possible for the houses. Of course, I have never consigned any card to an auction house so I suppose it's not surprising how ignorant I am.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

First of all I would like to thank Jim Crandall for starting this thread. It has provided some very valuable diaglogue which is always productive.

I am getting ready to head out of town for the week (will be at the Reading show this weekend if anyone wants to stop by) so I thought before I left I would document action items I will take and report back on.

#1 I will get responses from both PSA and SGC and report back.
#2 I will document a definitive policy statement as to both what we will and will not do when it comes to getting cards graded. That is the main take away I get from this. Our customers deserve to know.

On a personal note I really appreciate all the positive e-mails I have gotten since this thread began. It is very gratifying. As a matter of fact it has been profitably as well since a couple have led to some really nice consignments! <Before anyone starts they are not cards with wrinkles or corners that need to be laid down...actually one is a fantastic rare pre war type card that we have only offered twice in our history and the other a nice mid grade pre-war consigment>

My only regret is Jim didn't invite me to see his collection ;-<

All the best,
Doug

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Doug,

I am still looking in the mail for the invite to the Mastronet party at the national convention in Anaheim
:- ). Not that Joe Orlando's dealer party wasn't fun but I understand yours was one not to be missed.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Also Doug,

Could you answer Peter Spaeth's post at 10:13pm last night--approx post #137.

Thank you.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

As a consignor in the last two Mastro Auctions with high-dollar cards, I can tell you that I was never offered any kind of deal to try to "maximize" my grades, even though I personally thought there was a card or two that was definitely under-graded.

I did though get another kind of call from Mastro after they received my consignments. They told me that they thought one of my cards was over-graded and that they would have to call that out in the item description. Obviously, I wasn't crazy about that idea so they gave me the option of taking back the consignment, which I did.

Not sure how relevant all this is, and I know I'm just one of many consignors, but thought I'd share.

(edited to add: this was in response to Peter Spaeth's post at 10:13pm last night--approx post #137.)

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Whether or not one agrees with Mastro's practice, Doug deserves great credit for answering questions and his candor in this thread. Many in his position would have either ignored the questions, or not have been as honest.

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Posted By: Doug Allen

Let me respond to Peter's post and Jeff's comment....

Maximizing a person's consignment is ordinary course of business nothing special is communicated as an ordinary course of business. As previously indicated we believe anything done is consistent with what is acceptable by the grading companies and therefore the procedures have no risk.

Take special note of Jeff's comment. If you note at the end of most descriptions we "reaffirm" the grade by effectively restating our acceptance or agreement of the third party grade. There are times such as with Jeff's T-3 that we are forced to communicate that the card is overgraded. In cases like this we give the person the option to take the card back.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I predict neither PSA nor SGC will publicly endorse pressing out even inconsequential wrinkles. I believe PSA will stand by its stated policy which does not distinguish among creases, wrinkles, or wrinkles that (to paraphrase) do not affect the integrity of the paper, and that SGC will take a similar position. If anyone has a contrary prediction I would be interested to hear it, and in any case their response will be most enlightening. EDITED TO CORRECT SPELLING

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
Great disscussion..... And many thanks to Doug , Scott, Rob and Barry for taking the tough questions and giving answers. You can say what you want, and make your own decisions, but at least you know where each company stands. I applaud everyone for tackling these tough issues which are at the forefront of the hobby. Agree or disagree, at least we are all trying to set an accepted standard. Be well to all Brian


ps I have no problems with erasing pencil or soaking, but have never tried to remove a wrinkle.

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Posted By: David Vargha

I love watching a train wreck as much as the next guy. However, to piggyback on what Greg said, PSA's selective application of their guarantee isn't worth dick. I submitted two cards that I had purchased on eBay that totaled a whopping $165 SMR at the time and that both had obvious globs of crap on them, naked to the visible eye. They were handed to a PSA employee at the Hollywood Park show who immediately agreed that the cards should never have been slabbed without a qualifier. After being jerked around for several months, I was given the warrantee equivalent of "Drop your shorts and grab your ankles" (We stand by the original grades).

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: davidcycleback

One result of this episode is that more people will beleive, or be more willing to believe, that the Gretzky T206 Wagner is not in original state.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Heh . . . Good catch on my lack of proofreading.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Solomon Cramer

A friend of mine sent me this link, I like checking back in from time to time, though I've basically been out of the hobby for about three years.

It's funny that many have mentioned the difference in restoration of cars vs. cards, and what is acceptable and what requires disclosure, as I've probably ended up with the best mix of experience in both industries, having been one of the largest graders of cards (mostly modern, but a good bit of vintage) and now selling about a thousand cars a year though auction, mostly cars we use in rental.

With cards, my business for 10+ years, my eyes became opened very quickly. With all due respect to those who disagree, and I know a number who have chimed in personally, but I'd wager 90%+ of full time dealers, probably more, have done and consider it more than acceptable to press wrinkles, rub out corners and lay them out, etc. Actually, I was shown how to do some of these things, not only by other dealers but by some of the graders themselves. These are things that no one can detect have been done. Who is going to police that?

To me, that's no different than when we buff the cars we sell before they go through the auction, add minor paint touchup, replace a bumper, etc. All very superficial repairs, that have no impact on the integrity of the car. All of our cars are sold in a lease lane at the largest auto auction in the world (they clear better than $100M in sales per week), and they come with a detailed condition report - which many times lists stuff I missed when I sent the cars down. Do they list slight paint touchups, or 1" scratches? Of course not. But if the door has been replaced...damn right it'll show up.

Now, you want to talk about trimming or other items that 95%+ of dealers and collectors would disapprove of? That's the same as selling a flood damaged car, or one with a rolled odometer, or a rebuilt car with a washed title. There's no grey area there - it's go to jail time. I just sold a car, water damage but NOT flooded or totaled, and we put in new seats and carpets in it. Was there anything wrong with the car functionally? Nope. Clean title? Yep. Could anyone tell? Almost certainly no. But I disclosed the damage. Will the next dealer do the same? That I can't help.

You know, I get the feeling from some of these posts that people think Derek et al spend their days rolling corners and pressing wrinkles. I know the amount of material I went through, and while I handled a larger number of total cards, the amount of cards they have to look at is just staggering. I'm sure at the end of the day, the number of cards that they do anything with are very few. It's simply a matter of logistics and processing.

Bottom line - if you're looking to buy pre-60 cards in 8 and better, and you want to make sure you never buy a card that's had a wrinkle rubbed out...don't buy cards

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Solomon,

It is great to hear from you. Hope all is well.

I will respond with some questions for you sometime tromorrow. Please check back in. I know you are very knowledgeable.

Jim Crandell

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Posted By: davidcycleback

With art and memorabilia, if a seller intentionally omits material information about the item because he knows disclosure will lower the sales value significantly, that is unethical. Another way to put it is the seller is being dishonest to cheat the buyer out of money. If the hidden information is that he physically did something to the card that he knew most collectors will object to, that only makes it worse.

I offer no opinion on the sale of cars or how it compares to the sale of trading cards. I've never heard of anyone displaying a Honda in lucite or driving a Topps at rush hour with the kids in back. I image what is must disclosure for one isn't always must disclosure for the other.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I wouldn't think Solomon, assuming your description of auctioning cars by the thousands refers to modern cars, mass made and never to hold or increase in value. No one really cares if you buff and shine and touch up paint on a 2004 sebring, really all the buyer wants is as pretty a ride in good mechanical condition as they can afford.
Now if you want to talk cars comparable to vintage sportcards, you've got to talk vintage (pre-1970) auto's, and I can assure you that the history of the work the car has recieved in it's lifetime, IF documented and attestd to as honest (much as what is relied upon after grading companies slab a card), is SUPER important to any potential buyer and has a HUGE impact on the prices realized.
When you look at populations of vintage card issues pre-WW11 - that is the only reasonable car comparison you can make, and hardly reflects auctions of cards produced and still available in the tens, or hundreds of thousands.
And lastly, your lament that it is all just too common and we should just give up and accept the actions of dealers - well, that just plainly sucks wind.

sincerely
daniel

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Posted By: MVSNYC

wow guys, you have been busy this weekend...let me first say that i respect Mastro's and have bought several high-end PSA graded T206 cards from them...here is what i think, for what it's worth...

maybe i have been naive, but i never expected or thought that collectors, dealers, or auction houses "prepared" cards for grading...i know that there are crooked people out there who "doctor" cards, but never would think people would "do work" on cards prior to submitting them to a grading company, in hopes of getting a higher grade, or slipping one past the graders. i have submitted 100's of cards to PSA over the years and the only "preparing" i have done is to carefully put the card into a "card saver" plastic sleeve...i never, ever touched a card in a manner of trying to make it "better"...this goes for anything: erasing pencil marks, removing blemishes, wax, wrinkles, creases, or "fixing" inferior corners...to me, any of this is altering/doctoring a card...IMO, and interferes with the purity of the story and history of how the card arrived in your hands. there is something special about the fact that the card survived many decades, world wars, paper drives, mothers throwing cards-out, spokes, rubber bands, etc, etc...i have always felt that, once you acquire the card, it should remain exactly as you have gotten it, anything else "taints" the purity of the nostalgia of the piece...

besides collecting T206, i recently got into world series ticket stubs...talk about history, 1919, 1927, ruth's called shot...these items have seen some of the holyest (barry-sp?) events in our hobby...and they have survived to this point unaltered, or "assisted"...same goes for cards, bats, gloves...the beauty of the hobby (the honest part of the hobby), is when you have an object in your hands that has made it to this point...any imperfection or "defect" only makes it more special...like i said, maybe i have been naive, but the thought of "preparing" a card for grading, never, ever crossed my mind. i don't like the sound of it...and if PSA stands by their grading standards, i don't think they would like it very much either...i am only 32, but i am very old school.


Michael Sarno
New York City

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I once had for sale on eBay an inexpensive paper premium, perhaps a BB magazine premium. The premium was larger than any box I had. Though the premium had no wrinkles, creases or like wear, I wrote that it had a heavy crease down the middle. Why? Because I planned on folding it in half to fit into the box.

With all this talk of removing wrinkles, I plan on adding a few wrinkles to some of my memorabilia-- just for the heck of it. Maybe an edge ding while I'm at it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think Solomon said it best:

"Bottom line - if you're looking to buy pre-60 cards in 8 and better, and you want to make sure you never buy a card that's had a wrinkle rubbed out...don't buy cards."



I have also consigned a lot of high dollar items to Mastro and have never been offered any help in "upgrading" my stuff. Probably because all of my stuff was graded/slabbed cards... but this shows that Mastro never hinted to me that they could get a higher grade from PSA or SGC.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, that's interesting. I wonder which special clients get the "Mastro Special Treatment."

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

I really don't think anyone who consigns slabbed cards gets any kind of so called "Mastro Special treatment." I think the press and clean was mainly in reference to raw card finds that are consigned and then submitted through Mastro.

I've talked to a few consignors (some who are very good friends with Doug, others who barely know him) and no one has ever heard of getting offers from Mastro to try to upgrade their already slabbed cards.

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Posted By: jay wolt

JEFF - Thats a valid point.

Has anyone on N54 consigned a slabbed PSA/SGC/GAI card
that magically appeared in the auction re-slabbed and
higher graded? And if so, we're you contacted that it
was going to be resubmitted?...jay

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

At the end of the day, it does not really matter what "we" (the collectors) or what the grading companies say is OK. Even if SGC and PSA tell Mastros not to take out a little wrinkls and Doug Allen stops doing it (as he said he would), all of the other dealers are going to continue to do it themselves.

Why? Because if it is done properly, it is impossible to tell that it has been done. And there is too much money to be made for the owners of the cards to get them in the highest possible holder.

We should concentrate more on the major types of restoration that CAN be detected. Trimming, coloring, adding paper, etc.

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Posted By: T206Collector

[We should concentrate more on the major types of restoration that CAN be detected. Trimming, coloring, adding paper, etc.]

It's like the old Steven Wright joke:

*I woke up one morning and looked around the room. Something wasn't right. I realized that someone had broken in the night before and replaced everything in my apartment with an exact replica. I couldn't believe it...I got my roommate and showed him. I said, "Look at this--everything's been replaced with an exact replica!" He said, "Do I know you?"*

To me it is very simple:

(a) If the alteration is 100% undetectable, what you don't know can't hurt you (or the resale value); and

(b) If the alteration can be detected, then if it is in an SGC holder, SGC will give you your money back.

Why these two simple axioms don't satisfy people is beyond me; unless, of course, you had a lot of money invested in cards not graded by a company that offers such a money-backed guarantee.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think the idea that things might not be as they should be may make people a little uneasy. These are new revelations for some and it is taking time to digest.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I agree that trimming is a serious issue and I would like to hear more from Leon about the conversation in which Dave Forman identified it as a far more serious problem than pressing out wrinkles. In particular, how confident is he that it can be detected? I infer from his saying that it is a serious problem that he is not entirely confident, or it wouldn't be a problem from his perspective, but I would like to hear what he has to say about that.

My issues with the "if a tree falls in a forest and noone hears it" approach are threefold: one, I am not really convinced these types of alterations are 100 percent undetectable. I would guess that with sophisticated enough technology one could tell. Two, more importantly, I am not convinced that wrinkles can't reappear eventually. And three, even if the first two concerns were satisfied, I just think there is something disturbing about knowing the surface of a card has been altered to give it its present appearance. I admit however that I am not sure I can articulate why that bothers me and erasure of a light pencil mark doesn't.

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Posted By: Cat

Doug:

I would certainly understand if you have vowed to be a lurker in this thread from this point forward. I appreciate your candor and will likely be a Mastro customer in future auctions.

When I say I will "likely" be a customer in future auctions, that qualification has nothing to do with what has been the primary discussion of this thread. What unnerves me is the buyers premium going to 20%. This was touched on a bit, mostly by Jeff Lichtman, but I don't think we were ever given an explanation. I realize you are running a reasonably sized business and really don't OWE an explanation to anybody, but I, for one, have been a decent customer and am concerned about the action. (I looked back in my check register and have spent $50,500 in Mastro auctions since the April, 2005 auction; consigned nothing). My general feeling is that I am being gouged.

You said it yourself...you never expected your $6MM auctions to turn into $12MM auctions. That's outstanding revenue growth, for Mastro, regardless of an increase in the buyers premium. Although I buy pretty freely and pay as much attention to prices as anyone, I do not know how much baseball cards have increased in the last couple years. My instinct is that the overall price increase, in cards, has went up by easily double digits. Even if we assume it is at the low end of double digits..say 10%...which I personally believe is incredibly conservative...that, again, is revenue inflation that most any firm would love to have.

I understand that perhaps the memorbilia side of your business is more complicated. Authentication is more stringent, I suppose. The items may be more obscure and harder to determine the claimed provenance. But this is not the case for cards. When I read the description for the T204 Johnson in the present auction, it was the same (or virtually the same) as the last T204 you sold about one year ago. NO PROBLEM!!! Why reinvent the wheel? But, it serves my point, cards are no more complicated now than they were when Mastro started, so why the increase in buyers premium.

With the revenue growth and revenue inflation that you have had isn't there something that could of been done to meet income goals and leave the buyers premium at a level the market thinks is fair? Your revenue has had staggering growth and you increase the buyers premium on top of that. I've heard you have a top notch office location. GREAT!!! But at some point, you are going to have to look at the cost side of the equation rather than increase costs and pass it to the buyer. (I had to laugh when Jeff Lichtman stated something to extent of "well I guess for the extra 2.5% we get paper tape with the Mastro Logo plastered all over it." Because I just received my card from the October auction about a week prior and that is exactly my thought when I saw your logo on the tape. I know that is petty, but people get that way when they think they are beginning to be treated unfair)

There is a point of diminishing return on the buyers premium....I don't know what that is for the market...but it is approximately 20% for me. Some folks say it doesn't matter just factor it in when you decide what you want to pay. I do that, at times. Other times, I just pay the price, and that's when the increase impacts me. I will tell you, I never even flip a page in a Heritage auction catalog, I just turn a cold shoulder. Their buyers premium has been to high for to long. I hope I don't come to the same final "cold shoulder" conclusion about Mastro.

Some have stated that the increase in buyers premium is simply softening the charges on the consignment fee. If the buyers premium has increased to offset the decrease in consignment fee, I would like to hear more about that.

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Posted By: DJ

I may be going out on the limb here, but does the 2.5% increase have anything to do with the "jazzy" seventeen minute DVD entitled "The Story Of Mastro Auctions", narrated by PSA's own Joe Orlando, that came with my three catalogs?



DJ

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Posted By: Dylan Jasper

T206collector you said that if a card is altered and the alteration is undetectable then no harm no foul basically. Well by that reasoning if someone were able to produce a reprint that was undectable from the original then as long as no one noticed that would be ok too. If I were able to take a poor or fair card and reconstruct it into a psa 6,7,8 is that ok too? You will receive an abundance of what you put up with. And if we let the alteration of cards slide, card doctors will just become more and more brazen and the problem will only get worse. Most consider a gem mint card to be as near to "perfect" as a card can be. I wouldnt call any altered/reconstructed card sitting in a gem mint holder no matter how perfect it may LOOK to actually meet that standard, ever.

-Edited to leave my name-

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Posted By: MikeU

Doug,

What is the status on responses from Forman and Orlando?

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I hear that if you throw a dealer in a pond and he doesn't drown, then he's a witch.

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Posted By: Jeff Prillaman

Richard -- you have that partially right -- if a dealer weighs the same as a duck then he's a witch.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

Here is what you will hear from PSA and SGC:

"If we detect that a card has been altered, we don't grade it."
SGC lives in fear of allowing an altered card get in to a holder.

As far as opining on the undetectable, such as flipped corners or light pencil erasures, that is more a question of conscience than of grading.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Richard - Not sure if my emails are getting through to you. Check your spam emails.