Questions for Doug Allen

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

That remark was said tongue in cheek. If I ever did this and it came back an 8 and I went to sell it, I would disclose what has been done to the card.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason L

Thankfully, I have not as yet personally had defects (re)appear on a slabbed card that I have purchased, but perhaps we should begin thinking about how to discount our purchase offers appropriately...somthing like:

"I am looking to buy a PSA 5 ___, that has been doctored and thus achieved entombment in a PSA 8 holder. And I will pay a PSA 3 price to account for the possible future costs of re-grading the PSA 5, should the defects reappear."

[Archive]

Posted By: ScottIngold

Jim,

I understood that on your part completley. From what i know and have heard you are one of the more upstanding citizens in our little hobby.

Even though your one of them north Jersey people.

It was that i believe many do this in our hobby and it might just be coming to light now amongst the less enlightened.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, you are quite the optomist. I don't think that any auction house will agree to any code of conduct which might impact their bottom line. While Doug claims that profit is only the 4th or 5th most important thing at Mastro, why then do they bother to resubmit cards, flatten out corners and get rid of creases? Obviously the answer is that the difference between a 1948 Leaf DiMaggio in PSA 4 compared to PSA 8 equals a huge amount of money to the auction house.

What I would find refreshing is if we heard the following from auction houses: "We try to make as much money as humanly possible - like our customers do in their businesses - but we will do it without affecting the integrity of the hobby." I wish that the latter sentiment were true and not just the former.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Maybe a code of conduct has to include that is okay to take light creases out???? But not ok to trim, restore, recolor or bleach??? But when creases are taken out, the seller must disclose????

I don't know--I would like a code of conduct to forbid taking out creases but I suspect not many would sign that.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, my feelings are that the auction houses can do whatever they want as long as there is full disclosure - and then the reactions of the market will be such that will cause the houses to cease or continue doing their actions. Unfortunately, I think this is just a pipe dream because obviously any sort of disclosure will just drive down the prices realized for these cards. There is a reason why Mastro and the rest of the auction houses will not disclose this info, i.e., taking out a light crease, cleaning, etc., to the public: $$

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

For big auctions, disclosure is considered important for lots where the third party authenticator is owner or part owner of the lot. It's generally considered not important for the auction house to disclose which lots they own. In part because the auction house is trying to profit on all lots, the ones they own and don't own. I beleive the auction houses make the majority of their money, perhaps the vast majority, from consigned lots-- so there's no reason for an auction house to treat consigned lots differently than in house lots. If anything, the consigned lots would be treated extra special as consigments is where the company profits lay. In my opinion, auctions should not be required to disclose what lots they own.

In fact, I beleive many consignors would complain if Bill Mastro's or Doug Allen's personal lots were singled out in a Mastro auction, as the consignors of like items might feels bids will gravitate towards the famous owner lots at the expense of theirs. It's likely some bidders and onlookers would complain that purpose of the ownership disclosure was to make extra $$ for the company execs.

I beleive that if a card is listed in a Mastro catalog as having been consigned from Bill Mastro, founder of the company, this disclosure will raise the bidding price. Likewise, if the ownership is hidden, the card will sell for a lesser price. This is why I would need to hear a darn good argument explaining why Mastro would suppress his ownership on a lot for personally selfish reasons. If he wanted to make extra $$ from being company exec and fatcat insider, he'd put his name in the lot title.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

Do they rub them out, press them out dry? Do they soak the card and press it out that way?

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

In part your explanation of work done in-house on cards is the belief that alteration has not been performed, and that such practices are somewhat, if not universally, understood and accepted......

So, just two quick questions.
Do you inform the grading companies of which cards specifically have had wrinkles/creases removed, with an understanding that such "work" is acceptable?

And secondly, what would be your expectation if I spent my time "working" on my cards so that they could obtain the best possible grading - and therefore sale value, and disclosed that "work" to my preferred grading company?

My point, I guess, is that if you have to hide what you do because it would be considered alteration by the grading companies, it is clearly improper, un-ethical, and at least possibly - illegal.
If indeed such practices are accepted by the grading companies then keeping it on the down low to preserve auction and hobby activity is cruel practice indeed.
In my mind, if you commit a felony, it is not the getting caught that makes it one. It is the act itself.


And for Barrysloate's question re disclosure of ownership of material for auction/sale..... with an understanding now of the actions of auction houses, the obvious peril is that - say for instance, you performed similar "work" on cards (purely hypothetical and in no way an accusation), you would have a huge incentive to a) buy cards from private sources knowing you could fix them up and make a killing. b)your auction descriptions would be tainted (rightly or wrongly) with a possible perception that you are jazzing up a card for personal motive and sale. Clearly most would believe that your margin on a card bought, with the expertise you have to buy cheaply, would be considerably higher than on consignment.....


daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Actually, I didn't ask the question about ownership of material, I merely volunteered which lots in my recent auction were owned by me. No big deal, and it is one of those issues that is not that important to me. When I bid on a lot I certainly don't want it to be misrepresented in any way, but I'm not sure I really care who owns it. I will bid to my limit either way. I know others feel differently.

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

I strongly feel that everyone on this board should give a great deal of credit to Doug for participating in this thread and being very frank in his responses. When you are on top or very near the top, you are a big target and have very little to gain by disclosing detailed practices and staff. It is refreshing to see a very significant player in the hobby speak to the masses. This is rare in and of itself, let alone the frankness of his comments.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike, I do appreciate that Doug has come on and answered certain of the questions posed to him. And Doug did this because it is good business to do so, much the way REA sends emails out en masse alerting its clients to the ills of the hobby. I'd like to see Rob come on and discuss some of these issues as well. I think that considering the amount of money involved it is the only fair thing to do; after all, shouldn't this business be as transparent as possible?

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Apologies if this was already posted, it's a long thread.

"NO GRADE DEFINITIONS
If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons.


N-5 Altered Stock - This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced."

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

"Jay- I have no problem disclosing this in future auction catalogs, but a question I throw out to the board is does anybody care? Would anyone place less of a bid on an item because I owned it vs. a consignor? I am curious how people feel, so I invite all to respond."


Yes, I care.

I was trying to explain why someone might care, or it might seem important, as you seemed surprised at the thought...?

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

Jeff L.,

Rob had an ample opportunity to jump on the board and discuss the recent e-mail from REA. He did not, which is very unfortunate. There needs to be some reform in the hobby or at least a unified code of conduct for allowed alterations or enhancement practices. Doug laid out what he viewed as acceptable, including the psuedo-controversial topic of removing wrinkles. I respect that, along with what Rob did.

I do not think what Doug did was nesessarily good for business. The people that like Mastro and/or Doug will continue to like him/them. The group of people that do not like him/them can now slant his statements e.g. Mastro admits to altering cards etc. If anything, his direct statment regarding wrinkles may hurt him to some small extent in the short term until this becomes universally excepted or reputed.

In any case, Doug and Rob are two of a handfull of people that could disclose and cripple card doctors and assist with PSA and SGC on agreed card enhancement conduct. I believe this could be done with little or no consequences to their business. In fact, they could become legends for generations to come, if they were to spearhead a strong effort. That would be a pretty special legacy.

A good analogy for Doug and Rob regarding the doctoring epidemic and their future legacy would be that of Steve Job's interviewing the President of Pepsi to come over to Apple. "Do you want to sell sugar water the rest of your life, or do you want to change the world."

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

MikeU,

Inspiring words--seriously.

Hope you can be part of the solution here--you are very thoughtful.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I've said it before and I'll say it again, pressing out wrinkles, flattening flipped corners, erasing ink/pencil marks, etc, are all card alterations in my book. As has been pointed out, if those wrinkles or flipped corners were left as is, those cards would not grade well, but a little doctoring turns them into gold.

A corner gets flipped when someone puts their card in to holder, to bad, you damaged your card. I've done it numerous times over the years.

Anything that materially affects the card should be considered an alteration, no matter how insignificant you might think the work done on the card is. I know that if I had the money to spend on big ticket items, I would want to know if wrinkles had been pressed out or corners flattened.

Then again, I don't have the money to spens on these cards, so I pretty sure my opinion doesn't count.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

Hey Guys,

Sorry finally got the kids to bed....shopping with the three of them today was worse than dodging bullets form my biggest fan Mr. Lichtman ;->

Anyways wanted to catch up on some responses in no particular orer.

Warshawlaw - I don't have a problem with California law as I do not alter cards without disclosing the work (e.g. T206 Pank, Just So Burkett). Although I fully understand that people on this form may consider laying down a corner and pressing out a light paper wrinkle as alteration I am quite confident that a majority of the card collecting public does not and this would be defendable in a court of law.

Jim Crandal - Code of Conduct. I believe it is a great idea but it would have to be a code endorsed by the majority. I am quite confident that how I have defined my own code of what is acceptable would pretty much be what the majority would endorse and believe me if we could have a code of conduct that would eliminate trimming and what I consider true alteration the hobby would be a better place.

Lichtman - Response to two comments made by Mr. Lichtman

#1 "Obviously the answer is that the difference between a 1948 Leaf DiMaggio in PSA 4 compared to PSA 8 equals a huge amount of money to the auction house" - RESPONSE: actually if we remove the surface wrinkle on the 48 Leaf not only do we make money but we ensure our consingor maximizes what we believe to be a legitimate return...Others would rather allow the dealer who buys this card to make all the money

#2 "What I would find refreshing is if we heard the following from auction houses: "We try to make as much money as humanly possible - like our customers do in their businesses - but we will do it without affecting the integrity of the hobby." I wish that the latter sentiment were true and not just the former" - RESPONSE: Although I do not try to make as much as humanly possible....I do try to make an acceptable margin I do honestly believe I do it without affecting the integrity of the hobby. With the books we publish, the auctions we produce we conduct ourselves with a great deal of integrity and add to this great hobby.

E, Daniel - No we do not inform grading companies because we do not believe what we do alters cards. Here is the analogy I will use. Do you disclose when you turn your car into the dealer that road tar got on the rear quarter panel and you cleaned it off, or you had a light scratch on the door not effecting the paint so you buffed it out....of course not.

Mike U - Although many may not agree with the practices I have delineated we have done a ton to disclose and criple card doctors. I took my own personal "Nodgrass" cards cracked it out of the holder and showed the grading service how it was power erased. We cracked a fake Drum back Cobb card out of the holder and returned it raw to the dealer (not a pretty confrontation). We have pulled numerous cards from our auction that in our estimation appear to be altered.


I hope I have answered most of the new questions.

Regards,

Doug

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

That was a very good opinion and one shared by many. I think your vote should count as 1, just like mine, Jim Crandall's (I wanted to put both of your names in the same sentence ), and everyone else. Last time we talked about this subject it was very divided on what folks thought. I think I might be in the large minority on this subject. Nothing like a good, friendly, debate....take care

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

Jay....

In your post you say "Anything that materially affects the card should be considered an alteration, no matter how insignificant you might think the work done on the card is."

I am sorry but these seem to be totally opposite.

A corner flip, a surface wrinkle, a light pencil mark...none of these materially affect the card. That is my point. These are easily reversable without adding to or taking away from the card. What the collector is left with is a beautiful and I believe unaltered card.

Again just my opinion.

Doug

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Doug, one problem is that your opinion is different than PSA's opinion. So you are doing a very good job fooling PSA with many submissions. Shame on PSA for missing those pressed out wrinkles that they said they wouldn't grade (per Peter Spaeth's quote from PSA's guidelines saying that they think a pressed out wrinkle is an altered card). Good for you and your consignors that you have the ability to get it past their eyes. Is this good or bad for collectors? I guess it is good for 50% of the collectors that don't care about a pressed out wrinkle, and bad for 50% of the collectors that do care.

On a personal level, I'm still sitting on the fence. I am not convinced a pressed out wrinkle won't return someday after encapsulated. I have a few cards in PSA holders now that have wrinkles that I did not notice until just yesterday (and I've owned them for a year). Does that mean I missed them previously? Or does it mean a wrinkle came back? I am either pissed at myself for missing them, or pissed at PSA and the seller (not Mastro in these cases) for passing them off to me.

In my opinion, one of two things need to happen:
1. Mastro needs to be straight with PSA and follow their guidelines instead of trying to fool PSA.
2. PSA needs to change their guidelines to fit Mastro's activity.

(inject any other dealer for Mastro in the above two opinions).

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

I must be posting in invisible ink.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think pressing out wrinkles will ever be universally accepted by everyone in the hobby. And if I had to guess, I bet more than half the people involved in buying high end cards would find it unacceptable. Doug, I only count as one vote, but I do not think it is ethical to iron out even the lightest wrinkle since the goal is to improve the grade and get more money for the card. I have a $100 card sitting on the table, I spend a minute ironing out a crease, and now I have a $200 card. Just doesn't sound right to me.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think the reason why the great majority of collectors are against altering cards in the way Doug mentioned is due to the possiblity that the alteration does not stick. As King says, this sort of alteration, i.e., flattening a corner, getting rid of a wrinkle, tend to rear its ugly head while in the (now) overgraded slab. Mastro only needs the remedy to stick until the sale of the card in order to get its money. I can only imagine what Mastro would do to cards if profit were say in the top two of its primary motives and not fourth or fifth (sorry, Doug, couldn't resist).

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Not me--I am against it in principal.

Doug,

As Peter Spaeth points out, PSA will give a N-5 altered stock grade if a crease or wrinkle has been pressed out--you admit to doing this.
Are you aware of their grading standard and are they returning any cards to you with this grade saying that the card has had a crease taken out?

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

Do they rub them out with the back of a spoon? Press them out with a hydraulic press? Soak the card then press it under stacks of books? Exactly what is being done to these cards that are then slabbed for all eternity? Who is doing it? Does Mastro have an in-house specialist? Is there a protocol followed for deciding which cards are in need of "enhancing"? Does Mastro notify its consignors that the cards are being worked on (since there is a risk that an eagle eyed grader may reject the card as "N-5")?

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

Jay....sorry, I have no problem disclosing what we own in the auction.


Jim...it looks like I need to get into this a little deeper. First of all let me define what we are talking about here. For the purposes of this discussion let me provide different definitions for creases vs. wrinkles (which yes I include as minute surface crease). I believe what PSA is referring to in their definitions are creases. They impact the integrity of the paper and I believe unless you do something "sophisticated" - - (admittedly I don't even know what you could do) then you will never get this out. I am talking about a surface wrinkle that you can only see if you turn it to the right angle in the light and can only see it on one side of the card. In cases that this type of wrinkle can be removed without impacting the integrity of the card...not by soaking, not by ironing....by applying a small amount of pressure. To be honest these types of imperfections don't exist that often...most of what we see are creases not wrinkles and you end up with a VG or VG/EX card. Guys I am posting this on a public board....I am quite confident that Dave Forman, President of SGC and Joe Orlando, President of PSA would not have a problem with this. If they did I would stop as I can tell you I would not do this if I thought it was a problem with the services as I value my relationship with them.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve M.

I have always been under the impression that it was pretty much universally accepted that “ironing out a wrinkle” was an unacceptable alteration. Yet here we have the president of a nationally recognized auction house actually admitting that not only do they do it but that they consider it perfectly acceptable. As one who does not pay thousands of dollars for the grade I suspect that those that do are going to be doing some serious rethinking of taking a chance that the encapsulated “8” suddenly becomes a “5” because the ironed out wrinkle reappears.

Taking Barry’s comment, “I have a $100 card sitting on the table, I spend a minute ironing out a crease, and now I have a $200 card. Just doesn't sound right to me” just one step further:

It is not only not right it is dishonest.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Look, we all know that you just need to follow the money trail to figure out which cards are more likely to be altered. It's all about money, nothing else. If Mastro and the rest of the auction houses were concerned solely about the hobby they wouldn't do this sort of alteration (parsing through what a 'wrinkle' is compared to a 'crease' is comical, no?). If you want to buy cards that have not been messed with, stay away from the PSA 7s through 9s as there is clearly more of a liklihood that they have been tampered with, simply because of the potential windfall for the seller (or consignor or auction house). I for one am desperate to hear Rob Lifson's take on this. REA holds itself out as the ethical watchdog amongst auction houses so let's see if they are any different than the most mercenary of the auction houses, Mastro. My guess is probably not, but I hope I'm wrong. If I am wrong and REA does not do this sort of thing, I will never buy another card from Mastro again.

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Pressing out wrinkles is an alteration & the wrong way to do business in my opinion. On the bright side, now I don't feel so bad about getting outbid all the time

[Archive]

Posted By: EcardCollector

The issue of the integrity of the card is brought up over and over. I understand removing glue or a light pencil mark where the writing device didn't press into the card, but removing a wrinkle by somehow pressing it out of view for a time to then rush it into a grader is the most despicable kind of abuse of the grading system. Integrity of the card? How about integrity of the cards consigner and owner?

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

Folks....have you not read what I said. In the beginning of this dialogue I made reference to what I believe to be acceptable in the industry and by the grading services. I also indicated the practice of pressing out a light wrinkle happens quite infrequently. Now "stay away from all cards graded 7 to 9"...and "running them to the grading service before the crease reappears". In my opinion you are being a bit extreme.

Here is what I will do...I will describe this INFREQUENT practice to both SGC and PSA and see if they find it acceptable. If they believe it is not we will stop immediately.

Here is how I will pose it....

Dear Joe/Dave;

From time to time when handling cards for grading we identify a light surface wrinkle. The type of wrinkle I am talking about is kind you can only see if you turn it at a certain angle to the light and does not go through the entire card. We have employed the practice of applying light pressure to the surface in order to remove the wrinkle. We believe the practice to be permanent and undetectable. Permanent as we have never experienced a re-appearance of the wrinkle and undetectable as as it leaves no trace on the surface of the card and there is no break in the paper.

Although we believe this practice to be commonplace we wanted to confirm that the practice as described would not be categorized in your grading standards as "altering" a card. We beleieve alterations have been very clearly spelled out when it comes to trimming a card, bleaching/cleaning and removal of deep creases that change the gloss and surface of the card.

I value your feedback.

Sincerely,

Doug Allen
President
Mastro Auctions

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

I'm happy about that letter.

I understand there will be those that will still think removal of wrinkles is still card altering, even if PSA and SGC agree with Mastro. But if all three agree, I am perfectly comfortable going forward. I am also very happy that if they don't agree that Mastro will stop those activities.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

I agree with Doug here. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the practice of removing light surface wrinkles, this thread has definitely blown everything he's said about the practice out of proportion. He said it best above - it's a rare practice. Now people sound like it's rampant and continuing theft or something.

We all like to scream and b--- about how the media makes blows up issues and makes days of news from nothing, and yet here we are engaging in the same practice. It's almost like some (not all) posters want there to be a scandal, or something that feels scandal-like, or something to rally around in some kind of protest. Doug listed removing wrinkles among the things Mastro will do prior to grading. Some see that as altering - I get that. But stop acting like they are doctoring every card or practicing intentional ripoffs as a routine business practice.

For my money, I think that Doug is best off leaving things where they are right now. He tried to do a decent thing and answer questions that we all have had for awhile. He even seemed to be prepared to accept honest disagreement with some of the philosophies Mastro has. But some of the exaggerated accusations? Shameful. Good luck getting anyone else to answer anything honestly.

I appreciate those posters that have asked genuine questions, and stated opposing positions with some sense of balance and constructive tone - this post is not directed at any of those comments.

My two cent's worth.

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Says a crease OR wrinkle cannot be pressed out. So at least on the face of it there is still a disparity between PSA's published standards and Doug's statement regarding what PSA considers acceptable. Hopefully his letter will clarify the situation. Personally I would be surprised to see PSA publicly endorse pressing out even light wrinkles or laying down corners, but I don't profess to know how they view these things. EDITED TO ADD unless I am not looking in the right place SGC does not define "altered" on its website.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff

I suppose a card with a bit of wax or tobacco would be analogous to a car with tar on a quarter panel. No harm no foul. But a card with a wrinkle is analogous to a car that has been in an accident and the repair ought to be disclosed to any potential buyer. Especially if the repair is temporary.

My worry is that the card doctors don't hang on to their doctored cards long enough to know whether their repair is permanent. They fix and flip. Has anyone here pressed out a wrinkle and watched the card for a few years?

[Archive]

Posted By: jackgoodman

--"My worry is that the card doctors don't hang on to their doctored cards long enough to know whether their repair is permanent. They fix and flip. Has anyone here pressed out a wrinkle and watched the card for a few years?"

Ok, I'm guessing that the collective board has purchased a "few" cards over the years. Has anyone, I repeat, anyone found a slabbed card in their collection that all of a sudden developed a crease that they know wasn't there when they purchased it? Anyone?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

We went over the "reappearance" of a wrinkle before, in the thread I had started about creases/wrinkles. Only one person, I don't remember who, said they had ever seen one come back. I have never heard of anyone else saying they knew one had reappeared. My guess is that if one did come back it would be on a heavy crease that had been worked on...not a surface wrinkle. If you think about the paper bouncing back it would seem it would have to be deep to do that. I have 0 experience with this stuff though....so maybe I am off???

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

The problem with seeing a wrinkle coming back is that it is very difficult to know exactly where the new wrinkle came from before hand. For example, let's say a wrinkle comes back today on the middle of a particular card. It's a small wrinkle. Well, did you miss the wrinkle 6 months ago? Or did it come back? Did you scour the card every centimeter to make sure there wasn't a wrinkle? Now, if you know exactly where to look to make sure it doesn't come back (i.e. if you were the wrinkle presser), then you'd know. But if you are the collector, you'd probably be scratching your head thinking: geez, did I miss this one or did it come back?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I don't really collect high grade (7 and above) but if I did I would put a magnifying glass to every millimeter of every card I bought that was high grade. I doubt I would miss too many wrinkles that way. If I saw an obvious one later then I would know it came back. Not sure how else you could do it...

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

The cards I'm talking about through my personal experience are/were 5s, 4s and 3s. And although my eye is probably a lot poorer than yours, I looked at them very carefully months ago. Maybe they were there when I first bought them. Maybe someone with an eye better than mine would have caught them at that time. It's too late now to know.

FWIW, I haven't noticed any 'new' wrinkles/creases with my 7s, 8s or 9s. They are still fine as far as I know.

[Archive]

Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Kudos to Doug for repeatedly coming on this thread and responding to all posed questions. Regardless whether one agrees with everything he said, I respect tremendously that he had the courage to state for the record his company's position on these issues, and indeed to be willing to change some policies to address stated concerns. I personally agree with those who state that pressing out a wrinkle is an alteration of a card, but I respect that others may reasonably disagree. In my view, as with so many other issues concerning reasonable disagreement over what is and is not proper, the simplest solution can be described in one word -- disclosure. For those who don't feel/care that a card is now graded an 8 because a wrinkle has been pressed out, those people will disregard the disclosure and bid as if nothing improper had been done to the card. For those who feel such a pressing out of the wrinkle has a material impact on the integrity/value of the card, they will have been forewarned and can bid accordingly (or not bid at all). Nobody will have been mislead and all will have the necessary information to bid based on his/her assessment of the value of the card.

I would also like to reemphasize a point made by others on this thread. I would like all the auction houses/individual dealers who cater to the viewer base of this Board to respond directly to the questions which formed the genesis of this thread. While I appreciate that some might be a bit reluctant to engage in a public chatboard, the fact remains that the issues discussed in this thread go to the heart of the integrity of card collecting, and it seems to me that if a company/individual wants to solicit our business, they should publicly take a position on these issues.

[Archive]

Posted By: Boccabella

I'm confused as to how you press out a "surface wrinkle" in the first place. I've never known that to be possible but quite clearly it is. If the auction companies and anyone else who has done it will explain the process, perhaps a paper conservator could answer the question of 1)how likely it is that wrinkle would return, 2) how such a process is viewed in other genres of collecting and 3) whether that is disclosed.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Corey- may I respond to one of your points. You say that there may be a buyer out there who buys PSA-8's but wouldn't care if a crease was pressed out, therefore he can go on buying as if nothing wrong was done to the card. My question: considering the extravagant prices people pay for PSA-8's, and we all know that the set registry crowd has taken these prices into the stratosphere- do you think there is a single purchaser in the PSA-8 universe who wouldn't care? If I were guessing, I would say 100% of them care, and emphatically so.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Once again, thank you for your direct answers--you are doing a good job defining Mastro's practices.

I don't mean this question in a bad way Doug but have you discussed these issues with all the guys that work for you that are responsible for buying. Is it possible that you have one set of values and that one of the five guys who works for you has another? If this is ridiculous just stop here and say its ridiculous but if you are not sure I would appreciate it if you could confirm with the five guys mentioned earlier in this thread tthat none of their activities in improving cards go beyond what you have described as Mastro's business practices.

Thank you.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

The problem with the disclosure solution as I see it is that while it might well work for a single transaction or a few cards, in the context of a huge auction, with numerous multiple-card lots, it really becomes somewhat impractical to identify everything that might have been done to "prepare" every single card in the auction for submission. Would disclosure also need to include, for example, each card's grading history -- that might well be important to a number of buyers.

I think Doug has made a more than adequate blanket disclosure here of the types of practices he condones, and hopefully the grading services will weigh in as well in response to his letter/email.

EDITED TO ADD Barry with due respect I think you are wrong, in my opinion there are lots of people whose decisions would not be impacted by knowing a wrinkle had been pressed out, etc., so long as the card was now graded.

[Archive]

Posted By: joe

Good thread and thanks to Doug for explaining how and which creases are taken out of the cards. I would Like Leland's and REA to address this issue, I think we would get the same answers though. Even though the auction houses might stop this practice, everday collectors and dealers probably will not, so you might still be buying cards with creases removed. Even from the same auction house we are discussing here. As far as looking at cards months or years later, I think the 2nd, 3rd or 100th time we look at a card we will so more things wrong with the card each time. The flaws were probably there all the time.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- keep in mind that people are typically paying thousands of dollars per card for PSA-8's. Part of the psychology that drives this market is that what they are getting in return is the finest possible quality. I don't think a card with a crease ironed out would qualify. I stand behind my opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug Allen

Jim,

I communicate with my guys every day and we are all on the same page as to what is acceptable. Ultimately what they do is my responsibility so I keep pretty close tabs.

Regards,
Doug

[Archive]

Posted By: Todd Schultz

that it is impractical to disclose. First, we have been told that the number of cards actually worked on is minimal, such that some here are overreacting to what is not really a problem. If it affects so few cards, it should not be a problem to offer disclosure.

As for grading history, I am not suggesting that an auction house has some sort of affirmative duty to investigate the card's prior grades, but if the card is resubmitted by the house itself and obtains a higher grade, then that should be disclosed IF the card has had ANY kind of work on it.

As for large lots, I seriously doubt that bunches of the cards in such lots have work done by the house, but if so, there should be disclosure of at least the type of work done generally, if not card by card. Anything done to enhance the value should be disclosed, and I disagree with Doug when he says he is cnfident that his company's practices would pass scrutiny under the California statute.