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  #501  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:12 PM
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Unless drastic changes in grading are done, I don't think graded cards will be priced the same in the future. Collectors can be stupid, but not that stupid.
Sure they can be. Look at all the people who turned a blind eye to PWCC's shenanigans even as some of us called them out over the years. I wouldn't call it stupidity though, I would call it more wishful thinking and misplaced trust.
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  #502  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:16 PM
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And the ones asking if it's actually illegal, and the ones still supporting PSA.. and ….
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  #503  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:20 PM
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And the ones asking if it's actually illegal, and the ones still supporting PSA.. and ….
All eyes in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.
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  #504  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Sure they can be. Look at all the people who turned a blind eye to PWCC's shenanigans even as some of us called them out over the years. I wouldn't call it stupidity though, I would call it more wishful thinking and misplaced trust.
It doesn't take everyone, but a portion of collectors changing their valuation of grading and collecting to affect prices.

If a percentage of collectors, and investors, change their buying habits or quit, that will affect prices.

So not everyone has to wise up, just a significant percentage, to alter pricing.
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  #505  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Sadly, I don't think it will affect them at all.
Return the card to the seller-
The seller who is crooked, and will simply crack out and resubmit to get a new "clean" serial number.
PSA gets a bit more money, the cards are now "fine" and get resold in a year or two, or maybe less. The people who buy the PSA line, or for whom it's all about the money will still pay big bucks for the same cards that they had to return earlier. The only ones happy are PSA and the seller.
This is actually a huge potential concern. What should happen with the altered cards, once returned? If they're re-submitted, they'll probably pass once again, and PSA garners even more money on the secondary authentication fees.

They are discussing the topic on Blowout... some believe that subsequent destruction of the card is the only proper solution. Others have suggested a "hole punch" be applied. Perhaps Moser and the like would eventually find a way to mask the hole punch.

But if nothing else comes of this, hopefully some type of governing body or Law Enforcement can find a way to ensure these bogus cards are never re-circulated. If we leave it to PSA or PWCC, we are pretty much doomed.
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  #506  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:55 PM
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How is he perfectly matching the ink when he recolors these tiny spots?
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  #507  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:59 PM
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i've seen cards that are not perfectly matched & still sneak by.
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  #508  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:42 PM
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I think people need to take note of this. It's PSA wanting to pass the buck for their incompetency. PSA is the grader and authenticator. They are the ones to blame for this mess, nobody else. PSA certified these, PSA needs to be the one financially responsible. I hope a year from now we refer to PSA just like we do GAI, just another defunct grading company.
David, You have to be kidding right? They are still PSA.... Do you guys think that SGC doesn't have any issues? Look at some of their high end, high dollar cards recently with huge Sellers. I have seen very recent T206s graded SGC 84 and 86's that look like 5's... Bottom line, this corruption is everywhere, period....

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  #509  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:59 PM
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1: Don't forget Beckett. In dollar value the cards on which they screwed the pooch may exceed the PSA mistakes.

2: It is unforgivable that PSA and Beckett are not up front assuring the collector base that they will compensate anyone who got ripped off with these altered cards in their holders. After all, the reason we are at this point is that PSA and Beckett suck giant elephant ass at the one thing they are paid to do; no amount of criminality in the creation and processing of these cards can change that fact. Each doctored card was in PSA or Beckett for an evaluation and they f***ed up every single one of them. That isn't the seller's fault it is the grader's fault.

I'm so sick of the whole thing...
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  #510  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:11 PM
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1: Don't forget Beckett. In dollar value the cards on which they screwed the pooch may exceed the PSA mistakes.

2: It is unforgivable that PSA and Beckett are not up front assuring the collector base that they will compensate anyone who got ripped off with these altered cards in their holders. After all, the reason we are at this point is that PSA and Beckett suck giant elephant ass at the one thing they are paid to do; no amount of criminality in the creation and processing of these cards can change that fact. Each doctored card was in PSA or Beckett for an evaluation and they f***ed up every single one of them. That isn't the seller's fault it is the grader's fault.

I'm so sick of the whole thing...
Adam, you and I both know nothing proactive like that will ever happen here. It will be the same old bullshit of denying, deflecting, disingenuously minimizing the scope of the problem, and falsely reassuring people it's all been contained and fixed. Beckett may not say anything at all. If the guys on Blowout are to be believed, there is an incestuous relationship there between the company and major trimmers. Sloan's statement was maddening beyond belief.
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  #511  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:48 PM
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All eyes in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.
Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. A little Simon and Garfunkel never hurt anyone.
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  #512  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:51 PM
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Unless drastic changes in grading are done, I don't think graded cards will be priced the same in the future. Collectors can be stupid, but not that stupid.
About half this country is pretty effing stupid. Apply that metric to the hobby and PSA could thrive on that number indefinitely.
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  #513  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:05 AM
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Aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. A little Simon and Garfunkel never hurt anyone.
I once cut myself opening a Wednesday Morning 3am CD...
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  #514  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:50 AM
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About half this country is pretty effing stupid. Apply that metric to the hobby and PSA could thrive on that number indefinitely.
Look around and listen the next time you are at a card show. Not the brightest LEDs on the circuit.
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  #515  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
How is he perfectly matching the ink when he recolors these tiny spots?
Into at least the early 80's, any color that wasn't straight CMYK was mixed by hand, and most printing inks don't lighten/darken after drying.

It's not hard to mix the color to match. And even easier of you have access to one of the color matching devices. Some paint stores have them, scans the supplied chip and gives what to mix to get an exact match. They probably exist for printing too.

On the scans I've seen, the match wouldn't even have to be all that good. A nice high res scan is almost as good as having the card in hand.
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  #516  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:13 AM
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Plus, if he is able to remove the gloss, or a portion of it, then wax or buff the surface, it would make it less noticeable. I'll reiterate, when the areas are pointed out, it's very obvious in some cases
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  #517  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:53 AM
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Adam, you and I both know nothing proactive like that will ever happen here. It will be the same old bullshit of denying, deflecting, disingenuously minimizing the scope of the problem, and falsely reassuring people it's all been contained and fixed.
No doubt this will be the case. This has been PSA's modus operandi for decades.
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  #518  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:38 PM
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No doubt this will be the case. This has been PSA's modus operandi for decades.
The same decades they apparently have been taking Gary's and everyone else's subs.

A subpoena or discovery request would be so much fun.
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  #519  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:53 PM
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Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.
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  #520  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:58 PM
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Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.
I'd settle for release of cert numbers and a good faith (LOL right) review of cards.
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  #521  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
About half this country is pretty effing stupid. Apply that metric to the hobby and PSA could thrive on that number indefinitely.
"Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that."-- George Carlin
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  #522  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:11 PM
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Time for PSA to do a recall, the same as the airbag fiasco or the ecoli tainted lettuce. Yes, it will cost them a lot of money, but that is the only way to make things right. And I'm holding my breath until it gets done.
But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino Family "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.

Last edited by perezfan; 06-18-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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  #523  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:16 PM
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But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.
They aren't going to recall cards, why even take it to the next level? They're on their side, not ours.
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  #524  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:20 PM
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They aren't going to recall cards, why even take it to the next level? They're on their side, not ours.
Well if PSA won't recall them, perhaps the FBI wil force the issue... as they did with the Marino Family Autographs. Check out the videos showing thousands of bogus pieces that were confiscated. Perhaps about the same number as there are bad cards floating around.

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  #525  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:23 PM
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Well if PSA won't recall them, perhaps the FBI wil force the issue... as they did with the Marino Family Autographs. Check out the videos showing thousands of bogus pieces that were confiscated. Perhaps about the same number as there are bad cards floating around.
I am skeptical PSA did anything criminal that the FBI can pursue, but I guess we'll see.
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  #526  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:32 PM
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Back to the upcoming National, which is what 5 or 6 weeks away where they will be many, many attendees.....some being well versed on what has been uncovered.

Do you think PSA and PWCC will have more to formally say before then? Didn't they both commit to their own investigations and to say more after those investigations are completed. If they don't say anymore, they will likely be on the defensive. But maybe that won't bother them and they will simply give a further tepid response as they interact with dealers, collectors, by saying our investigations are still on-going. For PSA, let's take the PSA Registry Luncheon, for example. Are they going to just hand out their awards, maybe cover some other Registry changes, and in a large forum like that, not address this major issue knowing many in the audience want to hear more from PSA?
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  #527  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:59 PM
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Back to the upcoming National, which is what 5 or 6 weeks away where they will be many, many attendees.....some being well versed on what has been uncovered.

Do you think PSA and PWCC will have more to formally say before then? Didn't they both commit to their own investigations and to say more after those investigations are completed. If they don't say anymore, they will likely be on the defensive. But maybe that won't bother them and they will simply give a further tepid response as they interact with dealers, collectors, by saying our investigations are still on-going. For PSA, let's take the PSA Registry Luncheon, for example. Are they going to just hand out their awards, maybe cover some other Registry changes, and in a large forum like that, not address this major issue knowing many in the audience want to hear more from PSA?
How would you like to be the poor schlep employees from PSA that have to go to the National, to stand at their booth and answer questions? Those buggers better be getting some hazard pay.
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  #528  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:35 PM
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Back to the upcoming National, which is what 5 or 6 weeks away where they will be many, many attendees.....some being well versed on what has been uncovered.

Do you think PSA and PWCC will have more to formally say before then? Didn't they both commit to their own investigations and to say more after those investigations are completed. If they don't say anymore, they will likely be on the defensive. But maybe that won't bother them and they will simply give a further tepid response as they interact with dealers, collectors, by saying our investigations are still on-going. For PSA, let's take the PSA Registry Luncheon, for example. Are they going to just hand out their awards, maybe cover some other Registry changes, and in a large forum like that, not address this major issue knowing many in the audience want to hear more from PSA?
Lawyers advise their clients not to say anything. I assume that's why PSA never says anything. After all, it's been years, court convictions, courtroom admission by the very trimmer and hobby common knowledge later, and PSA has still never admitted publicly the Gretzky Wagner is misgraded. Authenticating and dishonesty are supposed to be mutually exclusive words-- but not always in this hobby. And one can lie by omission.

This is why I've often said authenticators and graders like PSA shouldn't also be in the 'insurance' and 'financial guarantee' business because that latter stuff only serves to get in the way of the intellectual honesty and discussion of the latter. They should just be in the business of giving honest, open, learned independent opinions-- and that's all collectors should expect and want--, and anything that gets in the way of that should be removed from the equation.

Last edited by drcy; 06-18-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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  #529  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:40 PM
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But then, what would become of the tainted cards? Who do we trust to see that they are not recirculated? After all, it is money and greed that's driving this corruption.

There needs to be not only be a complete recall, but a governing body or branch of Law Enforcement to oversee the destruction of these cards. Similar to how the FBI confiscated the Marino Family "Autographs".

Either that, or the governing agency applies a hole-punch or back stamp to designate the card as altered. Anyone who trusts PSA to self-police or conduct this procedure is delusional. Otherwise, these cards would almost certainly make their way back into the hobby, just as before.
Ultimately, they should become the foundation of a reference collection that can be studied.
compared to other collectibles, they're somewhat unusula in having some remaining value. Most altered coins are made from inexpensive versions, sort of like turning a regular 87 Donruss into a Maddux. An altered very common coin most times ends up at the smelter.
A lot of the stamp fakery is also done by turning something very common and cheap into something expensive. Or outright fakery. The stamp I've shown with the certificate stating that the cancel is fake is a nice example. It was probably unused but had gotten stuck down so the gum wasn't there anymore. That sort of stuff is collected, just like a skinned Old Judge, but it's not an easy sale. However a used one with a nice color cancel is very easy to sell. So a fake cancel happened. (It's an example of a nice variety semi-ruined)

Some of the cards that got altered would be great to have around to examine. Like the trimmed Musial, it's still a nice looking card, and probably has no or nearly no surface wear.
Having it available to compare the printing to another one, or to be able to compare an edge trimmed with some skill to a factory edge would have some value. I can't see destroying them.
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  #530  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:26 PM
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PSA for years numerically has graded bad cards & often rejects good cards...because they can get away with this, and they get paid regardless... and most collectors think their opinion is gospel which its not, its just an opinion.......unfortunately, it appears it depends on who submits, how much you submit, what tier you submit and who is the grader.....SGC is a far better grading service for their knowledge, even if you don't agree with the grade, they will explain their findings and they are correct much more than they are incorrect.

Last edited by painthistorian; 06-18-2019 at 10:27 PM.
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  #531  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:40 PM
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"Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that."-- George Carlin
“In Lake Wobegon all the children are above average.” - Garrison Keillor

Speaking of Minnesota, I saw George Carlin live in MN.
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  #532  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:19 AM
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Plus, if he is able to remove the gloss, or a portion of it, then wax or buff the surface, it would make it less noticeable. I'll reiterate, when the areas are pointed out, it's very obvious in some cases
Been saying the same thing....it’s blatant
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  #533  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:02 AM
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I am skeptical PSA did anything criminal that the FBI can pursue, but I guess we'll see.
I agree about PSA's criminal charges, unless there is a trail that leads back to them concerning a conspiracy to intentionally grade altered/fake cards submitted by a certain party. If this can be proven, I think a strong larceny/false pretense conspiracy case can be made.

The case against the other two parties involved in this should scam should be a lot easier to prove.
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  #534  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:52 PM
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After all the news, does PSA still bring the highest dollar?
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  #535  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:20 PM
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No
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  #536  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:25 PM
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After all the news, does PSA still bring the highest dollar?
Yes.
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  #537  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mq711 View Post
I agree about PSA's criminal charges, unless there is a trail that leads back to them concerning a conspiracy to intentionally grade altered/fake cards submitted by a certain party. If this can be proven, I think a strong larceny/false pretense conspiracy case can be made.

The case against the other two parties involved in this should scam should be a lot easier to prove.
It might be criminal if they don't honor their guarantees
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  #538  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by drcy View Post
It might be criminal if they don't honor their guarantees
What's the crime?
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  #539  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:33 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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No crime has been committed by PSA....
I’m not ruling out a one person or couple persons could be if in collusion with a certain submitter, no way PSA as a whole, idk

Last edited by Johnny630; 06-19-2019 at 10:34 PM.
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  #540  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:11 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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It does amuse me that corporations have been afforded the same status as people where it benefits them...

...ok not really amuse.
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  #541  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:08 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
The same decades they apparently have been taking Gary's and everyone else's subs.

A subpoena or discovery request would be so much fun.
Yeah it would! I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that too.

I'd love to get a forensic computer examiner and a forensic document examiner to look over ebay, PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC. What do you think they'd find? Conspiracy to commit fraud, shill bidding, RICO violations, wire or mail fraud perhaps?

I think there is enough physical evidence already and not just in Huigens and PSA's own statements and actions. What many collectors or dealers might not understand or realize, is that the government might not see these things the same way they do as "fraud has always been done and therefore acceptable". And they might not look the other way as collectors and dealers tend to do just by the sheer amount of money and the fact that one of these companies -Collectors Universe -is publicly traded.

Law enforcement agencies like the FBI or SEC dont care what collectors say, and they'll build a case against the "well respected" or higher-ups of the hobby, and if they can, prosecute. If you dont believe me, just ask Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and a whole slew of counterfeiters, forgers and scammers.

The only saving grace against law enforcement is perhaps a jury who might not understand any of this. Law enforcement's case will have to be made on what could be found on the computers, emails, phone records and before and after photos -the same ones that Huigens says are irrelevant. The amount of money being made and actually follow the money. I'd expect something like this to take a year at least of examination and we're talking at least 5 companies, 14 card or more doctors dating back 2011. Remember, how long did it take the FBI to investigate Mastro again?
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  #542  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:30 AM
glenv glenv is offline
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It seems like PSA could easily handle this whole situation by just adding a new qualifier. They could do something like this:

1952.jpg
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  #543  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:42 AM
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Razor sharp borders on that one. One of the finest examples extant. Coming up in Auction 6, 7, and 8 until we shill it to the stratosphere.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #544  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
Yeah it would! I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that too.

I'd love to get a forensic computer examiner and a forensic document examiner to look over ebay, PSA, Beckett, SGC and PWCC. What do you think they'd find? Conspiracy to commit fraud, shill bidding, RICO violations, wire or mail fraud perhaps?

I think there is enough physical evidence already and not just in Huigens and PSA's own statements and actions. What many collectors or dealers might not understand or realize, is that the government might not see these things the same way they do as "fraud has always been done and therefore acceptable". And they might not look the other way as collectors and dealers tend to do just by the sheer amount of money and the fact that one of these companies -Collectors Universe -is publicly traded.

Law enforcement agencies like the FBI or SEC dont care what collectors say, and they'll build a case against the "well respected" or higher-ups of the hobby, and if they can, prosecute. If you dont believe me, just ask Bill Mastro and Doug Allen, and a whole slew of counterfeiters, forgers and scammers.

The only saving grace against law enforcement is perhaps a jury who might not understand any of this. Law enforcement's case will have to be made on what could be found on the computers, emails, phone records and before and after photos -the same ones that Huigens says are irrelevant. The amount of money being made and actually follow the money. I'd expect something like this to take a year at least of examination and we're talking at least 5 companies, 14 card or more doctors dating back 2011. Remember, how long did it take the FBI to investigate Mastro again?
I'd add a few AHs to that list too.
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  #545  
Old 06-24-2019, 04:03 PM
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When do the next PSA quarterly report and stockholders meetings occur?
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #546  
Old 06-24-2019, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
When do the next PSA quarterly report and stockholders meetings occur?
https://www.earningswhispers.com/stocks/clct


This site that is reliable says July 31st after market close.
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  #547  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:26 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
When do the next PSA quarterly report and stockholders meetings occur?
Bet it’s gonna be fine prob met or exceed estimates.
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  #548  
Old 06-25-2019, 07:10 PM
Rich Klein Rich Klein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
https://www.earningswhispers.com/stocks/clct


This site that is reliable says July 31st after market close.
Interesting because that the 1st "official" day of the National with the sneak preview opening.

Rich
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  #549  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:22 AM
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That is interesting.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #550  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:22 AM
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PSA: PLEASE RECALL All MOSER SUBMISSIONS
Joe Orlando/Steve Sloan,
You have seen that this scandal is not blowing over. It's getting worse for your company every day. You know what you have to do. Just get it over with. Every time another Moser card is sold, your Grade Guarantee is backing it. How can you be serving either your collectors or investors/stockholders by continuing to allow these cards to sell on the open market?
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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