W575 and W573 vs "D-unc" vs E120 and E121

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Posted By: leon

Ok....I know this is jumping out here but I am going to actually start a thread without any personal attacks in it, hopefully. It is also going to be relevant to what we do (no '92 refractor shi*)...what a concept. Actually, ALMOST all of the threads are relevant they just seem to get a little personal. As most of you know I collect "backs" of cards. With this being said it is always confusing when folks advertise E120's and E121's, with different advertising on the backs, as E120 or E121. I believe they should be classified as "w" cards. My thinking is that when advertised as "e" cards the seller (usually an expert or dealer) will get more money. For now all of my different ad back cards are categorized as whatever letter they should be and "unc"....such as a Clarks Bread backed E121 type card I have is W575-D/unc and a W575 Lou Gertenrich backed card as W575-E/unc (as it was a candy).....thoughts.....???

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Posted By: warshawlaw

but were these backs printed on the card's printing or stamped on a blank-backed card?

I feel that if the cards are printed it is appropriate to designate them as you descibed, but if the cards are stamped after manufacture (a la the overprints), they should classify with the original designation. One more wrinkle is that if the cards were sold blank backed then personalized (like the bloody expensive holiday cards my firm just sent out) on order, the cards should not be redesignated based on whose order it was. Anyone know how these things were handled "in the day"?

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Posted By: brian p

I believe that in the case of the Gertenreich and Clark' Bread issues, that these cards would be inaccurately labelled as a "W" cards. Burdick set up his classification system with the W designation to indicate cards that were originally sold in strips of multiple subjects. As far as I know, these two issues plus some of the other E-121 related sets such as Witmor's candy and Gassler's were not issued in this fashion, but rather singly with product. Having not seen examples in person of these cards, I can not say for certain whether they were factory or hand-cut, but my guess is that they are factory cut. The photos of these issues in the catalogs would also seem to indicate that they were not stamped after the fact, but instead the backs were printed at the time of production. They used the same photo source as the E121's, but due to their relative scarcity, it is up to question whether all 120 cards were issued or not for each of these rare issues.

I think a more appropriate designation for these issues would be E-Unc for the cards with candy mfg. ads on the back, and D-Unc for those with bread company ads. Sometime between the last American Card Catalog in 1960 and the issuance of the Sports Collectors Bible in the mid-seventies, Clark's Bread and Gassler's Bread were given designations of D381-1 and D381-2, respectively, but I believe these later designations are not valid because the cards have no connection to the D381 Fleishmanns issue. So until someone takes over the mantle of card classification dictator and puts out a totally revised listing of baseball card issues, we are stuck with the "-Unc" designation.

Brian

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Posted By: leon

Especially Brian for a well thought out post on a mundane subject (not to me but....). I would tend to agree with you and that is what I was looking for...some other ideas. The only exception might be to leave the "W" for some W573's (the ornate one's guys and girls) as at least one- a Cafe Du Monde back, and I am sure more, were in fact hand cut and then ads were put on backs. They are paper thin too. All of the E121 types are on thicker stock, as you mentioned......regards all