T206 Blue Old Mill Back

[hpkatz26]

Hello all. I think I've discovered a 3rd T206 Old Mill back that is Blue. Looks identical to the Walsh and Powell examples that were discovered in 2012 and 2019 respectively. But this one should be more valuable than the Walsh card for 2 reasons: 1) it has an Elberfeld Washington portrait as its front and 2) its condition is at least VG. I think the Walsh example was not in as good of condition. Any interest out there? What might something like that be worth?

[mrdbrooks77]

Cant wait to see the pics

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[hpkatz26]

I don’t think I’m allowed to post pictures because it has been consigned but a few experts saw it at the Chantilly show this weekend and thought it was authentic. It may be on display at the upcoming National. Let me know if I can answer any other questions about it. I remember buying it from a very reputable card dealer years ago and have had it in my collection for the past 25 years.

[Rhotchkiss]

Howard, I spoke with Tom about the card at Chantilly. He showed me pics and said he was going to put us in touch. I am interested. But if you consigned it, then we have little to talk about. If you have not consigned it, please email me at rhotchkiss@horizonlandco.com. I understand that SGC declined to opine on the card, which is a tad concerning. Better if slabbed SGC/PSA

[sb1]

I will be bringing the Campbell to Chicago for collectors(and TPG's) to examine on behalf of it's owner. As well as several other T206 oddities and rarities(from various parties).

[Jobu]

They don't own your pics - or your card. Post away. They should want the extra attention anyway.

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

I don’t think I’m allowed to post pictures because it has been consigned.

[Sean]

I'll look for you Scott.

[hpkatz26]

I'll have to check on this and get back to you. Would love to do so because I think this card is fabulous and better than the other two examples that are known to exist. I wish there were others so the grading services would more readily and fully validate this card for all collectors. Best regards and thanks for your interest. Howard

[t206kid]

I looked in person. Card is for sure blue. We also compared to it my Washington Elberfeld OM and it's noticeably a different color.

[hpkatz26]

Thanks Jay for adding to this discussion. I understand that there are a lot of skeptics out there. I wonder what the discoverer of the first Honus Wagner card or the Doyle variation had to go through. I just hope a grading service will be willing to do the right thing here - either the card is real or it is not. I'm betting it is the former. Thanks again for the comment. Best regards, Howard

[Ronnie73]

Sounds like a very interesting find. I was made aware of the find a couple days ago. Hopefully it's the real deal. I'm sure more exist out there waiting to be found. Unfortunately the Walsh never had really good scans and just the auction house scan which is really hard to see any color difference. That was the main reason for doing so many scans with a flatbed scanner and a usb microscope on the Blue Old Mill Powell. Then making a YouTube video to bring awareness to the variation that could be searched for. I hope the Elberfeld gets some scans that can be shared to everyone that actually show a comparison color difference. When the Walsh came out, everyone said you had to see it in person to tell the difference. That was disappointing.

So the SGC thing, they didn't want to give an opinion or refused to grade it as a Blue Old Mill? I haven't graded mine yet but figured that it would have to be graded by SGC since they were the one's that graded the Walsh. I haven't reached out to SGC or PSA on grading my card yet but will at some point. It just has not been a top priority since I have done so many comparison scans along with a video and also know the card its self is genuine. I would like to know how SGC determined that the Walsh was blue. Did they compare it to other cards or try to determine where the blue ink came from? I always thought the holder should have said "Printed with whatever blue ink" because I can say mine is 100 percent Piedmont blue.

My T206 Blue Old Mill Powell YouTube Video https://youtu.be/p5qUHZQLeFw

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

I don’t think I’m allowed to post pictures because it has been consigned but a few experts saw it at the Chantilly show this weekend and thought it was authentic. It may be on display at the upcoming National. Let me know if I can answer any other questions about it. I remember buying it from a very reputable card dealer years ago and have had it in my collection for the past 25 years.

delete

[CMIZ5290]

I have spoke with the owner, let's see how it plays out. My opinion has changed a bit after speaking with him for a long time....

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

A number of us have seen it. This is NOT a shaggy dog story. Pictures will likely be coming shortly.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ahhh ......Here we go again. Large shiner in the lake, boom! 12 lb Bass hits....He is also using treble hooks!!

..lost on all these city slickers.

..

[CMIZ5290]

Scott- You're right...I have been on the phone with him for over 30 minutes. He is sending me the pics, this is now very intriguing, especially being an Elberfeld portrait.....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by t206kid

I looked in person. Card is for sure blue. We also compared to it my Washington Elberfeld OM and it's noticeably a different color.

Might be, talked with him for 30 minutes, waiting on pics from him.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

..lost on all these city slickers.

..

I got the fish on bobber down analogy.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Might be, talked with him for 30 minutes, waiting on pics from him.

Decided you might like a rare back? I would love one of them with a Red Cobb front but it would be way past my card budget.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I got the fish on bobber down analogy.



Decided you might like a rare back? I would love one of them with a Red Cobb front but it would be way past my card budget.

delete

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I got the fish on bobber down analogy.



Decided you might like a rare back? I would love one of them with a Red Cobb front but it would be way past my card budget.

delete

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ben, It is absolutely ironic that you responded. I just watched a show on A&E about so many unsolved murders in South Dakota. There are no dental records and everyone has the same DNA.....

In person we don't cotton to morons. Bless you heart.

Would like to see a pic of the blue Old Mill card.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

In person we don't cotton to morons. Bless you heart.

Would like to see a pic of the blue Old Mill card.

delete

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Just because the Governor's house in the Trailor park was destroyed, that is no reason to be like this Ben! Shame on you...

He is not that rich, he still lives in a old RV like the rest of us.

Weirdly and seriously they are filming a episode of Hoarders two blocks from my house today. Would be cool if they found some cards.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

He is not that rich, he still lives in a old RV like the rest of us.

Weirdly and seriously they are filming a episode of Hoarders two blocks from my house today. Would be cool if they found some cards.

Yep, I'm heading for an RV as well.....

[hpkatz26]

Ron - The video was great and thanks for doing it. Actually mine looks identical as far as the blue Old Mill back was concerned. It certainly seems to me that mine is real too but if a grading/authentication service has the courage to grade it properly again then everyone will know one way or the other. Thanks so much for your comments. Best regards, Howard

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

Ron - The video was great and thanks for doing it. Actually mine looks identical as far as the blue Old Mill back was concerned. It certainly seems to me that mine is real too but if a grading/authentication service has the courage to grade it properly again then everyone will know one way or the other. Thanks so much for your comments. Best regards, Howard

Any chance we can see a picture of it?

[hpkatz26]

The auction company has asked that no pictures be published on this card until it has been graded - no one wants to mislead anyone here. Let's wait and see how the grading effort turns out and then pictures can be posted for everyone to see. I also believe the auction company might show it at the upcoming National so if you're attending the upcoming National at Rosemont, please stop by the REA tables and ask if you can see it. Sorry but that is the best advice I can give to everyone. Thanks to everyone for their interest. I don't think you will be disappointed in the outcome and the card will not be put up for sale until the grading controversy is resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The proof will be in the pudding! Best regards all, Howard

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

The auction company has asked that no pictures be published on this card until it has been graded - no one wants to mislead anyone here. Let's wait and see how the grading effort turns out and then pictures can be posted for everyone to see. I also believe the auction company might show it at the upcoming National so if you're attending the upcoming National at Rosemont, please stop by the REA tables and ask if you can see it. Sorry but that is the best advice I can give to everyone. Thanks to everyone for their interest. I don't think you will be disappointed in the outcome and the card will not be put up for sale until the grading controversy is resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The proof will be in the pudding! Best regards all, Howard

Thanks for the explanation, good luck with the sale.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by hpkatz26

The auction company has asked that no pictures be published on this card until it has been graded - no one wants to mislead anyone here. Let's wait and see how the grading effort turns out and then pictures can be posted for everyone to see. I also believe the auction company might show it at the upcoming National so if you're attending the upcoming National at Rosemont, please stop by the REA tables and ask if you can see it. Sorry but that is the best advice I can give to everyone. Thanks to everyone for their interest. I don't think you will be disappointed in the outcome and the card will not be put up for sale until the grading controversy is resolved to everyone's satisfaction. The proof will be in the pudding! Best regards all, Howard

In one way, I can understand their decision but in the other, I think it could be a mistake. The opinion of many of the members here on Net54 is very important. Not all of us will make it to the National to see it. Hopefully REA realizes that this card deserves a little more than the normal auction. Looking forward to seeing if it grades. I hope it does, it will make grading mine easier.

[sb1]

In regards to the Blue back Sovereign I posted above, SGC did in fact holder it Authentic and each person on their staff(and the floor), unequivocally said it was Blue. SGC just won't label any color errors on the flips at this time due to policy. They stated that I could tell people it was Blue, the A label basically portrays their opinion of it being Blue as well, and being a legitimate card.

I have added a scan of the front, most had seen it elsewhere, it appears to be missing the red and/or orange color pass. At one time someone said the card might have been soaked and changed colors, I have seen 100's maybe thousands of soaked T206's and none have changed colors, the ones done chemically turned out psychedelic. And..if the card were soaked turning the green blue in some way, why is the grass still green on the front...Printers scrap maybe? Doctored I doubt it, it was unknown to it's owner in a large T206 holding.

[atx840]

Interesting. The third blue Old Mill is definietly blue.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by sb1

In regards to the Blue back Sovereign I posted above, SGC did in fact holder it Authentic and each person on their staff(and the floor), unequivocally said it was Blue. SGC just won't label any color errors on the flips at this time due to policy. They stated that I could tell people it was Blue, the A label basically portrays their opinion of it being Blue as well, and being a legitimate card.

Just curious.... How much did SGC charge grading these kind of oddities cards? It is difficult to put a price estimate on these kind of cards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by sb1

In regards to the Blue back Sovereign I posted above, SGC did in fact holder it Authentic and each person on their staff(and the floor), unequivocally said it was Blue. SGC just won't label any color errors on the flips at this time due to policy. They stated that I could tell people it was Blue, the A label basically portrays their opinion of it being Blue as well, and being a legitimate card.

I have added a scan of the front, most had seen it elsewhere, it appears to be missing the red and/or orange color pass. At one time someone said the card might have been soaked and changed colors, I have seen 100's maybe thousands of soaked T206's and none have changed colors, the ones done chemically turned out psychedelic. And..if the card were soaked turning the green blue in some way, why is the grass still green on the front...Printers scrap maybe? Doctored I doubt it, it was unknown to it's owner in a large T206 holding.

Hi Scott

Cool Sovereign, it's for real. As, I'm sure you know, it's simply a color printing error which is missing the yellow ink in order to create the green back.

Sovereign (and American Beauty) cards can be found with blue backs; but, they are an extremely rare "breed". The yellow ink in the 6-color printing
process preceded the blue ink; therefore, it is very unlikely to find one. However, they do surface on rare occasions.

As I said, you have a real cool card there.

P.S.….why did they grade it an "A" ? It appears to be factory cut.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by atx840

Interesting to see these variables show up. The third blue Old Mill is definietly blue.

I held that one as well, and it is blue, not faded.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Scott

Cool Sovereign, it's for real. As, I'm sure you know, it's simply a color printing error which is missing the yellow ink in order to create the green back.

Sovereign (and American Beauty) cards can be found with blue backs; but, they are an extremely rare "breed". The yellow ink in the 6-color printing
process preceded the blue ink; therefore, it is very unlikely to find one. However, they do surface on rare occasions.

As I said, you have a real cool card there.

P.S.….why did they grade it an "A" ? It appears to be factory cut.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

except for the factory overprints, I've never seen anything that would remotely make me thing the backs were multiple passes of two colors.

The blue Sovereign could be real, but a missing color pass wouldn't be the reason.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

except for the factory overprints, I've never seen anything that would remotely make me thing the backs were multiple passes of two colors.

The blue Sovereign could be real, but a missing color pass wouldn't be the reason.

I have never seen a single T206 with a print offset on the back. If multiple layers I think they would have to be out there.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by steve B

except for the factory overprints, I've never seen anything that would remotely make me thing the backs were multiple passes of two colors.

The blue Sovereign could be real, but a missing color pass wouldn't be the reason.

thank you.

[Jobu]

I looked at the Blue OM Elberfeld at the National. It looks legit to me. What I would really like to see is that card, the Powell, and the Walsh all at the same time. I am definitely leaning strongly toward their being legit.

I do not think that the Sov Campbell card is really blue ink. The front and back are fully toned, the red and some other colors are extremely washed out from the front, and I think whatever caused the toning and ink changes on the front also changed the shade of the green on the back.

[sb1]

If that is the case why is the grass on the front still green?

[Luke]

I am in agreement with Bryan. This is a lot like the "missing red" cards where the back is torn off. If one side of the card shows a lot of damage or alteration, it doesn't feel right to me to proceed as if the other side would be unaffected by the damage/fading/chemical reaction etc.

And yeah backs were just printed with one color ink.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Jobu

I looked at the Blue OM Elberfeld at the National. It looks legit to me. What I would really like to see is that card, the Powell, and the Walsh all at the same time. I am definitely leaning strongly toward their being legit.

I do not think that the Sov Campbell card is really blue ink. The front and back are fully toned, the red and some other colors are extremely washed out from the front, and I think whatever caused the toning and ink changes on the front also changed the shade of the green on the back.

+1

[packs]

Don't think the Sovereign card is special. It looks like it was once glued to something and that's the reason for the color bleed. Front matches all the hallmarks of color being sucked out of it from an adhesive on the back and the different shades of cardboard on the back is spotty enough that it looks like it was once glued to something and soaked.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Jobu

……..

I do not think that the Sov Campbell card is really blue ink. The front and back are fully toned, the red and some other colors are extremely washed out from the front, and I think whatever caused the toning and ink changes on the front also changed the shade of the green on the back.

Hi Bryan, ole buddy...….I am reluctant to disagree with you here on this Blue SOVEREIGN back. As, we agree on so many other things. Anyway, shown here are the Campbell's
in my three T206 sets. Note variations in their sunset colors. Their PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN and SWEET CAP (Fac. #30) backs are normal. I've seen many T206 Campbell cards,
and their "sunset scene" can be all kinds of colors.

I'll reiterate....Scott's Blue SOVEREIGN back is simply a printing ink error. The printer at American Litho got his ink colors mixed-up (or perhaps he was color-blind). Eventually,
more Blue SOVEREIGN cards will show up, just as more Blue OLD MILL cards have shown up.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Rhotchkiss]

Are the Blue Old Mills hand cut/scraps? We know that Brown Old Mills are legit and that they were likely mess-ups, discarded and cut up at printing. Thus, all brown old mills are printer scrap and they are most certainly brown (not sure why the overstrike and multi-strike exists, unless they were just used as extra paper to get ink of or for experiments, but that's irrelevant here).

If blue old mills (or this blue Sovereign) are not hand cut, I think that is somewhat telling and perhaps indicative of fading or maybe a missing color (although I have no knowledge of that Ted v Bryan). But then again, there is the Brown lenox, which was distributed in packs... That said, many people i trust have seen the blue old mills and they say they are blue, and I trust them,. Conundrum. I would like to get that one nailed down before we branch into Blue Sovereigns.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Are the Blue Old Mills hand cut/scraps? We know that Brown Old Mills are legit and that they were likely mess-ups, discarded and cut up at printing. Thus, all brown old mills are printer scrap and they are most certainly brown (not sure why the overstrike and multi-strike exists, unless they were just used as extra paper to get ink of or for experiments, but that's irrelevant here).

If blue old mills (or this blue Sovereign) are not hand cut, I think that is somewhat telling and perhaps indicative of fading or maybe a missing color (although I have no knowledge of that Ted v Bryan). But then again, there is the Brown lenox, which was distributed in packs...

none of the "blues" ive seen appear hand cut

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll reiterate....Scott's Blue SOVEREIGN back is simply a printing ink error. The printer at American Litho got his ink colors mixed-up (or perhaps he was color-blind). Eventually,
more Blue SOVEREIGN cards will show up, just as more Blue OLD MILL cards have shown up.


TED Z

i like the theory of colorblind printers.

[brianp-beme]

With some of the misfit T206 cards out there I would say it is more likely the printers were drunk.

Brian

[atx840]

I am in agreement that the “wet” looking front indicates that some environmental factor altered the colour of the card. For me when I see a “missing red” version that has severe back damage, glue residue or overall fading, it’s a likely indication that the missing color was caused by an environmental factor. It’s def unique and neat to see but I personally would not consider this a true error.

I have seen two of the blue OMs in person and those appear to be factory printed as blue without any indication of environmental alterations.


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[Leon]

Originally Posted by atx840

I am in agreement that the “wet” looking front indicates that some environmental factor altered the colour of the card. For me when I see a “missing red” version that has severe back damage, glue residue or overall fading, it’s a likely indication that the missing color was caused by an environmental factor. It’s def unique and neat to see but I personally would not consider this a true error.

I have seen two of the blue OMs in person and those appear to be factory printed as blue without any indication of environmental alterations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The one blue old mill I saw looked blue....fwiw...

.