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  #101  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:00 AM
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Hall of Stats says Reese 120 (100 is HOF worthy), Rizzuto 77.
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  #102  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:16 AM
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CC is pitching in a hitters ballpark, against a DH, in one of the most hitter friendly ballparks in baseball. At the same time, he has earned a roster spot playing on one of the most competitive teams in one of the most demanding markets in baseball. He is not compiling numbers. He is a productive and important part of the team. He has a career war which places him in company with many other HOF pitchers. ERA does not tell the whole story. He is almost 100 wins over .500 with an ERA+ of 117. Combined with a CY and a WS he will probably be a first ballot guy.
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  #103  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:59 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Career stats of the two are very similar. Rizzuto won three major awards and was second in MVP voting once. Reese won no major awards. Also, Phil had just a few more championship rings. However, I see them both as borderline HOFers at best.


never mind, Kenny Cole said the same thing.
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  #104  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
CC is pitching in a hitters ballpark, against a DH, in one of the most hitter friendly ballparks in baseball. At the same time, he has earned a roster spot playing on one of the most competitive teams in one of the most demanding markets in baseball. He is not compiling numbers. He is a productive and important part of the team. He has a career war which places him in company with many other HOF pitchers. ERA does not tell the whole story. He is almost 100 wins over .500 with an ERA+ of 117. Combined with a CY and a WS he will probably be a first ballot guy.
First ballot? I'm going to say a name that no one associates with the HOF but in my opinion is a name I'd rather have on the rubber than CC: Tim Hudson. He also won almost (89) 100 more games than he lost, his ERA is lower than CC at 3.49, his ERA+ is higher at 120 and his best season (7.5 WAR in 2003) is better than CC's Cy Young season (6.3 in 2007). Even Hudson's second best season in 2002 (WAR of 6.9) was better than any single Sabathia season.

Last edited by packs; 06-21-2019 at 08:49 AM.
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  #105  
Old 06-21-2019, 08:59 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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First ballot? I'm going to say a name that no one associates with the HOF but in my opinion is a name I'd rather have on the rubber than CC: Tim Hudson. He also won almost (89) 100 more games than he lost, his ERA is lower than CC at 3.49, his ERA+ is higher at 120 and his best season (7.5 WAR in 2003) is better than CC's Cy Young season (6.3 in 2007). Even Hudson's second best season in 2002 (WAR of 6.9) was better than any single Sabathia season.
As much as it pains me to agree with Packs (who is using WAR in a discussion???!!!) he's got a point. Hudson really was consistently good longer than CC and his peak was higher.

Now Packs, about Corey Dickerson...
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  #106  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
As much as it pains me to agree with Packs (who is using WAR in a discussion???!!!) he's got a point. Hudson really was consistently good longer than CC and his peak was higher.

Now Packs, about Corey Dickerson...
Haha I've always thought Hudson has been criminally overlooked and he's been one of my favorite players since he came into the league. I loved watching him pitch.
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  #107  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:14 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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I was thinking the same thing today...it seems a pitcher winning 300 games in this era will be extremely rare if seen at all? I think 250 is the new 300!!!! Especially if you've won WS's and have a lot of strikeouts. His style has evolved similarly to pettittes from more of a power game to offspeed painting the corners. I think they both deserve to go in!
Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..
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  #108  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:14 AM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
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Tim Hudson was a great ball player. He did rack up a lot of numbers in a pitching friendly park but was a “compiler” (just kidding) toward the latter part of his career.
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  #109  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:17 AM
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Tim Hudson was a great ball player. He did rack up a lot of numbers in a pitching friendly park but was a “compiler” (just kidding) toward the latter part of his career.
Haha it was his last three seasons that killed his HOF case. If not for them he he would have been (correct me if I'm wrong) the only pitcher other than Babe Ruth to pitch at least 10 seasons and never have a losing record. Except for two of those three last seasons!
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  #110  
Old 06-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Tim Hudson was a great ball player. He did rack up a lot of numbers in a pitching friendly park but was a “compiler” (just kidding) toward the latter part of his career.
Turner field was pretty neutral with it's ballpark factor bouncing around from year to year on either side of "1" which is in essence, no affect.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 06-21-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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  #111  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:19 PM
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For me he's a yes, but (a) just barely and (b) there are at least 25 better players (including those still active) who aren't in yet. I'd put Sabathia just a little behind Tiant and just a little ahead of Guidry.
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  #112  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:37 PM
Misunderestimated Misunderestimated is offline
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Eventually CC gets it... His career isn't quite over yet. If the Yankees do something (win the Series) this year he might get some extra-credit there to go with 250+ wins.

He's not a dominator like Halladay was... Kershaw would get in if he had to retire now because of his health.

He's likely to be one of the last 250+ winners we see for a while (Verlander probably?) ... nice career, consistent.... Not a pure compiler (Jamie Moyer or Quinn from way back in the 1900-30s) but not as big a winner as Mussina or Hunter. No negatives for PEDs that I'm aware of like Pettite. Pretty much a model citizen if I remember right so no "character issues" (Schilling).

I do think Luis Tiant was better .... but different eras. I hope he gets in. Same with Tommy John who is also a bit of a "compiler" but with a great comeback story.

Anyway, the recent inductions of Smith and Baines suggest that the Hall doors will are wide open even if the writers don't let CC in within the initial run... I think that the writers will but not until they make him wait for a while.
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  #113  
Old 06-21-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
It's now the Hall of Very Good and Not Necessarily Amazing. And he belongs there under that umbrella with other Bronx Bombers of similar stature.
I agree. very good is the mark now.
HOF means little anymore...unless you have their RC in a 10. (Did not mention PSA). Then, you are in like Flint. Yeah, he deserves.

Besides, his cards are produced in the great bulge production numbers. Never will hold a good return.

CC is not a HOFer in my thoughts. My baseball side. Not my card side.
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  #114  
Old 06-21-2019, 04:57 PM
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I agree. very good is the mark now.
HOF means little anymore...unless you have their RC in a 10. (Did not mention PSA). Then, you are in like Flint. Yeah, he deserves.

Besides, his cards are produced in the great bulge production numbers. Never will hold a good return.

CC is not a HOFer in my thoughts. My baseball side. Not my card side.
Unless someone's election is a real shock, like Smith and Baines, I agree it won't have a big effect on price. Smith's and Baines' 9s and 10s though went up exponentially when they were elected and still haven't come back to prior levels or even close.
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  #115  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:55 PM
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Dont understand why Post Season stats should count too. Petitte did really well in the post season..
Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.

Last edited by Tabe; 06-21-2019 at 05:56 PM.
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  #116  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:54 PM
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First ballot? I'm going to say a name that no one associates with the HOF but in my opinion is a name I'd rather have on the rubber than CC: Tim Hudson. He also won almost (89) 100 more games than he lost, his ERA is lower than CC at 3.49, his ERA+ is higher at 120 and his best season (7.5 WAR in 2003) is better than CC's Cy Young season (6.3 in 2007). Even Hudson's second best season in 2002 (WAR of 6.9) was better than any single Sabathia season.
Hudson had a very nice career. The reason no one associated him with the HOF is that he has isn’t going there. He has 222 wins and 2000 strikeouts. CC has 250 wins and 3000 K to go with the CY. If you are comparing a guy with 2000k to a guy with 3000k that’s where the argument ends.
CCs best season were 19-7, 3.21 and 21-7, 3.18. He also had two more 19 win seasons. Also, CC had a war of 7.2 in 2008 which was split with Cleveland and Milwaukee. CC is retiring at the end of this season. I would guess he and Ichiro will go in together - because at this time they are the only 2 players retiring who are worth voting for. There is always the possibility he will have to wait another year but I doubt it.
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  #117  
Old 06-22-2019, 05:49 AM
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Not really sure why people don't think another pitcher will win 300 games. Randy Johnson won 300 games after he turned 25 years old. He's obviously one of the greatest pitchers of all time, but so are the majority of people who won 300 games.
Simple answer. MLB Baseball has turned a starting pitcher into a 6 inning pitcher. The less a pitcher “hangs around”, the less likely his chances are to claim a victory.
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  #118  
Old 06-22-2019, 06:07 AM
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3.71 lifetime ERA; a horrific 1.26 WHIP and here’s the worst stat of all: only ONE season with a sub-3.00 ERA (and that was a 2.70 Figure). This means even at his ultimate “peak”, he was not putting up earth-shattering numbers. After the 2.70 ERA, I believe his best figure was 3.17. Total “compiler”. He has only averaged 13 wins per season AND he pitched for great Indian and Yankee teams who both provided plenty of run support. Hall of Famer? Not in my book, but as others have accurately stated in this post, he will eventually get it.
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  #119  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:19 AM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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Well you do have to look at that ERA in context. His ERA+ is 117, so he was 17% better than the league average pitcher. In an era where scoring is up so much the raw number can be misleading.

I certainly find him better than Jack Morris who "only" won 254 games and had a 3.90 ERA with an ERA+ of 105.

I'd also take him over Burleigh Grimes whose ERA was 3.53 but his ERA+ was only 108.

Oh and he beats the pants off of them in WHIP too.

I guess my big issue is there are a SLEW of pitchers I'd put in before him, but I'd have put them in before Morris too. Luis Tiant, Tommy John, even Jim Kaat. However you can unscrew a light bulb, but not a HOF, unless you're in favor of throwing guys out.
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  #120  
Old 06-22-2019, 08:32 AM
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I always thought Rick Reuschel was quite a bit better than jack Morris and maybe some others in the Hall.
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  #121  
Old 06-22-2019, 09:26 AM
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good call Resuchel is also on my list, just forgot about him. He's probably higher than John and Kaat, neck and neck with Tiant for me.
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  #122  
Old 06-22-2019, 02:53 PM
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Well you do have to look at that ERA in context. His ERA+ is 117, so he was 17% better than the league average pitcher. In an era where scoring is up so much the raw number can be misleading.

I certainly find him better than Jack Morris who "only" won 254 games and had a 3.90 ERA with an ERA+ of 105.

I'd also take him over Burleigh Grimes whose ERA was 3.53 but his ERA+ was only 108.

Oh and he beats the pants off of them in WHIP too.

I guess my big issue is there are a SLEW of pitchers I'd put in before him, but I'd have put them in before Morris too. Luis Tiant, Tommy John, even Jim Kaat. However you can unscrew a light bulb, but not a HOF, unless you're in favor of throwing guys out.
If a lot of your argument for a guy going into the Hall is "well, he's better than this guy who's already in..." then the guy probably doesn't belong. HOFers stand on their own. There are lots of guys better than Harold Baines that don't belong, for example.

At least in the case of Morris, he had some dominant postseason outings, including the iconic 1991 game 7. CC? Career 4.31 ERA in the postseason while averaging under 6 innings a start.

CC had some good, even very good, years. Anything great? Nah. Sure, it's important to look at the context of when he played. Good idea. So compare him to his contemporaries - Roy Halladay. Justin Verlander. Clayton Kershaw. Zack Greinke. Madison Bumgarner. Curt Schilling. Randy Johnson. Roger Clemens. Greg Maddux. Corey Kluber. Max Scherzer. And so on. All pitched in the same eras as CC. All put up seasons (or many, many seasons) better than CC's best.

I just don't see him at HOF level.
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  #123  
Old 06-24-2019, 07:24 AM
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Hudson had a very nice career. The reason no one associated him with the HOF is that he has isn’t going there. He has 222 wins and 2000 strikeouts. CC has 250 wins and 3000 K to go with the CY. If you are comparing a guy with 2000k to a guy with 3000k that’s where the argument ends.
CCs best season were 19-7, 3.21 and 21-7, 3.18. He also had two more 19 win seasons. Also, CC had a war of 7.2 in 2008 which was split with Cleveland and Milwaukee. CC is retiring at the end of this season. I would guess he and Ichiro will go in together - because at this time they are the only 2 players retiring who are worth voting for. There is always the possibility he will have to wait another year but I doubt it.

The stats you're bringing up for CC are compiler stats. Without hanging around as a below average pitcher since 2013 and putting up one decent season in 2017, CC doesn't sniff 250 wins or 3000 K's.
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  #124  
Old 06-24-2019, 08:46 AM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Not really. He pitched a lot in the postseason and did OK not "really well". 3.81 ERA with a 1.305 WHIP. Nothing special.
Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 06-24-2019 at 08:47 AM.
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  #125  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:01 PM
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Well sabathia in his career is 3.71 (and people think he should be in HOF) and postseason opponents are better overall so 3.81 is actually really well and very close to Petite's regular season . Petite won 19 post season games. Petite also was on 5 championship teams and won MVP in 2001 I think thats speccial

CC's poste season ERA was 4.31 and he won 10 games.

Petite won most post season games of all time. Cant blame him for being in so many post season games. But again, thats my point he was in so many games and when we count stats for HOF like total wins they dont count postseason which they should for guys like Petite who were in so many games..
Well, the point is that Pettite didn't do anything particularly outstanding in the playoffs. He pitched a lot. He got 44 starts and had a 3.81 ERA. That's not bad. Pretty good in fact. But "really well"? Nah. 4.06 ERA in the World Series. "Really well"? Disagree. "Really well" is Curt Schilling going 11-2 overall with a 2.23 ERA. It's John Smoltz going 15-4 overall with a 2.67 ERA. It's Madison Bumgarner having a 0.25 ERA in the World Series and a 2.11 overall in the playoffs.
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