S74 silks

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Posted By: leon

I just picked up the S74 Red Sun back shown here. Now I read that Helmars might have come with backs too but it was my understanding that they didn't? A little clarification please. Any other thoughts on these are welcome too. I think there was a sale of a Cobby Red Sun recently for about 7500 plus a buyers premium. That was a great card......Anyone else have some Red Suns?

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Posted By: Bob Casmer

Leon,

Great pickup. I don't have a scan available but, I've only got one Red Sun backed silk, and that is of Joe Tinker. My other backed silks are all either Old Mill or Turkey Reds. I have heard there are Helmar backed silks out there also but, my understanding is they are ultra rare and only a few examples are known to exist. There are 92 different white version silks listed and I'm not sure they have found a Helmar backed silk for every available player. Since these silks were supposed to be used to sew into blankets and pillows and such, you would think that more examples would have possibly survived in someone's attic or closet.

You're right about the Red Sun backed Cobb also. Wasn't that just sold last month in the recent Heritage auction? I believe that is the only known existing Red Sun backed Cobb silk out there. With that rarity, I'm surprised the Cobb didn't go for more.

Bob

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Posted By: andy becker

hey leon,
i know you love the different backs......me too.

you are real close to a s74 back set. there is also a turkey red without the frame. and yes, helmar does exsist in s74-1. they are very, very rare.....in the years i have collected s74, i know of 3 in total. i have one, it's for sale (shameless plug ), email me if interested.

the red sun cobb was in huggins. that is the finest silk i have ever seen from a condition standpoint.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for the info....

Andy- email sent

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Posted By: jdrum

Everytime you post one of your latest acquuisitions, I am reminded of that line from the first Batman movie, "Where does he get all those wonderful toys!"

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Leon,

The Red Sun backs are tough but something along the lines of a Carolina Brights T206 back. Helmar backs are impossible. I, too, know of no more than three or four, and I've been collecting these for forty years. That would make them impossible, along the lines of a Cobb back T206 -- if one assumes that Cobb backs are T206s (and let's not start that one again).

Neither cigarette brand seems to have issued the unbacked colored silk variety.

Dan

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Posted By: Bob Casmer

Dan is right concerning the colored version of the silks as far as I'm concerned. I've been collecting both versions for well over 10 years (no where near as long as Dan) but, I've never seen a Helmar or Turkey Red colored version silk. I know the Standard Catalog lists that they come with those brands shown but, I'ld love to see one of either if there are any out there. Its interesting also in that the Standard Catalog shows Helmar as the rarest back in the white version silks and then shows the Red Sun version of the colored silks as the rarer of the two for that issue. Anyone know a reason why that may or may not be true?

Bob

P.S. Thanks to whoever corrected me regarding which auction the Red Sun backed Cobb recently sold in. I knew it started with an "H" but, couldn't remember which one at the time. Also, that was one of the nicest I've ever seen also, at least from what I could tell from the scan.

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Posted By: Bob Casmer

By the way Leon, I believe there is also a version of the Turkey Red backed silks that does not have the rounded border surrounding the print on the advertising back. Not sure about the scarcity/rarity of one version versus the other though and have never heard of a premium for either version over the other.

Oops, just noticed that Andy already mentioned about the borderless back for Turkey Red silks also.

Bob

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Posted By: leon

Thanks again on the different version of Turkey Red. I think Andy mentioned that above....It's always something with us type card (back) collectors....best regards and happy hunting...

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here are the two Turkey Red Backs...



-Rhett

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Posted By: Hal

Leon,



Lipset's Encyclopedia Volume 3 shows a picture of an S74 with a Helmar back on page 15, and says Helmar backs are only known on white silks, not colored silks.

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for the info. I keep Mr.Lipset's book very handy.....and a few of my very latest pick ups.... (since this thread was started)

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Posted By: Hal

Awesome pickups! Thanks for sharing!

Hal

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Posted By: MikePugeda

Very nice silks Leon! They're pretty tough to find with the backings (even the more common backs).
What do you think is the average price common silk with common back. I saw some with Helmar backs with the asking price of $150 each, do you think that's too high?

Mike

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Posted By: leon

I think about $150 is the right price....and if they don't have a crease in the middle (as most do, I understand) then the price would be really good....

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Hey everyone, if your S74 Colored Silk is in bad shape it's nice to know you can give it a quick trim-job, hastily paste it on a backing and nobody on ebay will even notice the difference...pretty funny auction (I am sorry in advance for outing anything!!!)
-Rhett

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-S74-SILKS-E-B-BURGER-RARE-Blue-w-BACK-Old-Mill_W0QQitemZ250319774101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM _Sports_Cards?hash=item250319774101&_trksid=p3286. c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39 %3A1%7C240%3A1318

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Posted By: Ed Hans

I saw that too, Rhett. I suspect it's an honest mistake. I thought of emailing the seller, but so often advice is taken the wrong way.

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Posted By: leon

So I am still learning a bit on the silks......It's always fun to learn (at least for me). How can ya'll tell this back was glued back on? Is it that it lines up poorly? I think I have seen other backs that lined up poorly too.....thanks in advance...

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Posted By: dstudeba

Colored silks don't have paper backing.

Very nice Helmar pickup BTW.

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Posted By: andy becker

that is the worst rebacking job i have ever seen. it is a s74-2 (colored series) with a s74-1 back.
s74-1 do not have any factory information on the front as that information was intended to be on the back.
s74-2 doesn't have a back so the information was at the top and bottom of the silk.

even if the seller used the correct back with the front, the way the two line up is really bad and would steer me away from even thinking about purchasing. white silks were put together (silk and cardboard back) and then cut. fraying is possible at the top and bottom, but the sides should always line up.

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Posted By: andy becker

"I saw some with Helmar backs with the asking price of $150 each, do you think that's too high?"

mike if that is a correct statement and not a typo, i would buy helmar backed silks all day at that price. i would guess fair value (for commons) is between $500-$1000 each.

$150 for common backs is very fair, market value for nice condition common backs is closer to $200+

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Posted By: leon

thanks guys....I knew my recent purchase was from a reputable seller so wasn't worried about that. My guess is that ya'lls answers helped more than just myself.....take care

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Posted By: leon

I skipped right over the "Helmar" part of the question I answered for Mike, above. I was thinking Old Mill or Turkey Red and have a funny feeling that is in fact the ones Mike might have had a bead on.....best regards

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Posted By: MikePugeda

Andy and Leon,

I made a typo. I do think that they were Turkey Red backs. So is $150 in line for Turkey Red backs? Also, among the various backs, what would you price out common examples of each, not HOFers.

A follow-up question...what percentage of white silks do you think are backed? I have been going to the Ft. Wash shows for the past 15 years and it seems like 75% or higher of white silks I have seen do not have backs.

Mike

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Posted By: andy becker

old mill and turkey red without frame are about the same value.....commons are about $200/ea.
turkey red with frame are tougher (especially if the frame is centered), but they do not sell for much more than the unframed tr's or old mills.

"A follow-up question...what percentage of white silks do you think are backed? I have been going to the Ft. Wash shows for the past 15 years and it seems like 75% or higher of white silks I have seen do not have backs."

the silly answer is ALL were issued with backs

to answer your question, i would guess that less than 5% still have the backing attached, maybe as low as 1-2%.

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Posted By: Joe

Hello, not sure if I am reading these posts correctly. All my Silks are graded.

I have 6 colored silks without backs 2 are Old Mill and 4 are Turkey Red. 1 is graded with no fold.

I have 5 White silks with backs, 3 are Old Mill and 2 are Turkey Red, both without the border. 1 is graded with no fold.

Interesting that both graded with no fold are Ed Summers 1 with back and 1 colored.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: leon

I was under the impression that if a tobacco mfg was advertised on the front (top or bottom) then there wasn't a paper back placed on that silk? Is that not correct?

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Posted By: Joe

Leon, that is how all my silks are, advertising on the front, no paper back. No advertising on the front has the paper back.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: andy becker

"I was under the impression that if a tobacco mfg was advertised on the front (top or bottom) then there wasn't a paper back placed on that silk? Is that not correct?"

that is correct.

if i mis-spoke, i'm sorry.

white silks (s74-1)= brand and factory on the cardboard back.
colored silks (s74-2)= brand and factory on the top and bottom of the silk itself. nothing on the back (those do not have cardboard backs).

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Posted By: Joe

From previous post. (Dan is right concerning the colored version of the silks as far as I'm concerned. I've been collecting both versions for well over 10 years (no where near as long as Dan) but, I've never seen a Helmar or Turkey Red colored version silk.)

Is this correct about a Turkey Red Colored Silk? Does not sound right.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Millerhouse

I'm pretty confident that Bob simply mistyped in the post referred to above. I'm quite certain that he meant to type "Red Sun." Obviously, there were quite a few colored silks issued by Turkey Red.

Also, the colored Barger with a cardboard back mentioned above is truly a chuckle. The manufacturer stopped issuing the silks with backs when he figured out how to place the tobacco brand and factory number on the fronts, secured (to at least some extent) from unraveling by the small strip of glue that can be seen at the top and bottom of those that have survived well. Find a factory number or a manufacturer's name on the front of a silk attached to a back? Someone's been fiddling with your silk.

Dan

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Posted By: Rick

What can anyone tell me about the rarity of this one?

Thanks,
Rick

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