Mantle Ball - UDA vs PSA 9

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

agreed Shelly. Some people have a hard time listening. I'm done trying to help people who can't help themselves and don't want to listen to people who know more than them on a particular subject.

I can only imagine how this anal attitude translates to business decisions?

The secret to my success in life is asking for advice from friends who know more than me on a particular subject. AND THEN LISTENING TO THEM. Is it really that hard, NO

Calm down. I'm not saying I'm not listening to you or to Shelly. I'm learning from you both so I am listening. I'm also interested in hearing from others as to what they would do also. Everyone has a different opinion and in the end after listening to everyone, I'd like to form my own opinion. That's what these boards are for. To chat with other like minded individuals and share thoughts. Any other thoughts you care to continue sharing, I'll still be listening.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Didnt mantle sign with ScoreBoard INC before UDA. Could have sworn Service merchindise and places like that sold them before he went to UDA

Yes they did. Score Board was around long before UDA. The had a whole lot of people that went on to sign with UDA. AAron, Williams,Mantle, Montana to name a few.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Calm down. I'm not saying I'm not listening to you or to Shelly. I'm learning from you both so I am listening. I'm also interested in hearing from others as to what they would do also. Everyone has a different opinion and in the end after listening to everyone, I'd like to form my own opinion. That's what these boards are for. To chat with other like minded individuals and share thoughts. Any other thoughts you care to continue sharing, I'll still be listening.

I would not listen to anyone one that has given you a suggestion. You know what you want go a enjoy yourself.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by shelly

I would not listen to anyone one that has given you a suggestion. You know what you want go a enjoy yourself.

Actually, I'm not sure what I want. I want to be sure an autograph is authentic (at least as sure as I can be) and I also want an item that is rare (mint condition). Finding both is very difficult as one other already person noted saying most UDA balls are toned. Thus, it would be helpful to me to hear how others would handle the same situation. If we all just said to do whatever I want and that's all, these boards would be useless to ask any advice. I take it many on here know a lot more than me and I would be interested in hearing these thoughts. In the end, I can determine if I find value in what others say.

From what I've gathered thus far, UDA would provide me with comfort the signature is 100% authentic. However, the toning on the ball means the mint graded ball would carry a greater value if I ever wanted to sell the item down the line. Regardless of whether or not one favors PSA, there is no denying their value in the marketplace.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Clueless

as one other already person noted saying most UDA balls are toned.

So UDA uses special balls that tone more than other baseballs. Okay, that makes sense.

[Klrdds]

I think I would wait for a better ball , because it seems that you are unsure what to do and that is not unusual in this hobby, we all have faced that situation before. I would look at my budget and see what I can afford and get the best ball possible when I can afford it even if it is a 10( that is the only grade Mantle I would even consider becaiuse they are available) . Mantle is neither rare or expensive, for most of his baseballs . But keep in mind that PSA and JSA are not infallible as this site and common knowledge have shown; however UDA will give you an "ironclad" item that may tone over time, but ANY autographed ball can tone over time no matter who or where you bought it from; so long term toning can be an issue based on many factors not just the vendor.
Also most Mantle balls are not great investments, in my opinion, because their prices have stabilized and there are plenty of authentic ones to choose from.
Good Luck

[w7imel]

The reason I asked is my baseball from mantle was from scoreboard. Has ZERO toning and while its not in direct light it hasnt been a box either. But I believe ball was produced prior to the non distilled Haiti balls..And while not proud of it it was handled quite a bit early 90's. I was young and all my friends were like "dude can I take it out of the case?" haha being the cool guy I said "why sure!!!" But still to this day no toning. I have a reggie UDA ball tat I bought years later displayed side by side that is starting to look brownish. Also an In person Johhny Bench at a denver show that has splotched everywhere. All displayed side by side

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by w7imel

The reason I asked is my baseball from mantle was from scoreboard. Has ZERO toning and while its not in direct light it hasnt been a box either. But I believe ball was produced prior to the non distilled Haiti balls..And while not proud of it it was handled quite a bit early 90's. I was young and all my friends were like "dude can I take it out of the case?" haha being the cool guy I said "why sure!!!" But still to this day no toning. I have a reggie UDA ball tat I bought years later displayed side by side that is starting to look brownish. Also an In person Johhny Bench at a denver show that has splotched everywhere. All displayed side by side

Michael, thanks for posting this. I don't mind being ignored, but when it's a legitimate question, it's good to finally get a response from someone. It sounds like you are saying that 'distilled' has something to do with toning. Is that correct?

[thetruthisoutthere]

My 2 cents.

Toning on a baseball has NEVER bothered me. I love autographs. Period.

I own two Ken Griffey autographed baseballs from Scoreboard (with their original Scoreboard boxes) and both of them have a fair amount of toning.

I also own four Derek Jeter rookie autographed baseballs from Scoreboard. All four are bright white.

All of my Mickey Mantle autographed baseballs are bright white except for one which has one spot of toning.

I also have a 1998 in-person Derek Jeter autographed baseball. It is heavily toned.

Just be happy with owning an authentic autograph.

I also think that some toning adds character to a baseball.

[chaddurbin]

wait for a nice ball in your price range (either uda or psa). if psa can't authenticate a mantle ball then just close up shop on this hobby.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Do the work yourself PERIOD. It doesn't make a rats ass of a difference. Just look at the stupid autograph for cryin out loud. 2 of the 3 I showed you don't have a thing on the ball. I did my own authentication and I don't care what any child like moron with a sticker or a stamps says. Do you have rocks for brains or just ADHD? or just a hard head? Just wondering? AND yes, Mantle fakes out weigh the real ones 10-1. They stand out like a sore thumb. If you can't tell the difference, maybe you should collect train sets

Were you specifically addressing this to me, Chuck, or were you speaking in generalities? Because if you were speaking to me directly, I don't understand what your problem is. Your choice of words and tone reflects pretty badly on yourself. And by the way, if you feel confident in your Mantle balls, that's fine, but for some of us who don't want to take that gamble on autographs that are highly targeted by expert forgers, we prefer not to be duped and can live without having a high percentage forged autograph, like a Mantle ball. I was just saying, if I'm in the market for a Mantle ball, I would definitely choose UDA over a TPA.

[ATP]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

You'd really have to buy the autograph and not the stupid sticker. The one thing about the upperdeck balls he signed is that they tone like a bit**, right in the bag and box they come in. Even if they are never displayed. It is almost impossible to find a so called UD "9".

The funny thing about some of the Bobby Brown AL balls is that if they haven't toned by now, usually they won't. same with the signature.

Signatures on selig balls that are graded will almost always fade over time for some reason, but the OLD balls that do not have a propensity for toning, somehow won't & don't?

As an owner of 10 Mantle balls, I would never pay a premium for a graded ball...EVER. I think it's moronic. My favorite Mantle balls are ones that are SNOW WHITE with-out some stupid sticker and they were purchased for a fraction of the cost of a stupid PSA 9, and much much nicer. Yes I have a PSA and a couple JSA Mantles thrown in there, but that's only because I was still learning his signature when I purchased them years ago. They almost always get Mantle right at least. Good luck.

No dog at all in this fight, but you quote you bought a few psa and jsa mantles when you were still learning, so why berate someone in a similar position. As an aside, to the OP, if you find a Mantle ball you really like, not authenticated, and want reassurance, pm me and I can tell you almost with certainty if it is real. You will probably get a steal of a price too as non authenticated mantles sell all the time on ebay for low prices.

[w7imel]

Scott that was my question for you guys. I had always heard that the bobby brown bals some of them were flawed due to leather being processed in non distilled water. I was wondering from you guys if you belive this to be true as well. thanks. And was definatly not ignoreing you. Value your opionion very much....mike

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

wait for a nice ball in your price range (either uda or psa). if psa can't authenticate a mantle ball then just close up shop on this hobby.

You can purchase a decent Mickey Mantle autographed baseball in the $350.00 range with a PSA/JSA cert.

A UDA ball will cost $400.00 or more.

If you take some time to learn The Mick's signature, there are some great deals out there.

I've purchase a few Mantle sigs on baseballs for under $150.00.

Good luck.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Scott that was my question for you guys. I had always heard that the bobby brown bals some of them were flawed due to leather being processed in non distilled water. I was wondering from you guys if you belive this to be true as well. thanks. And was definatly not ignoreing you. Value your opionion very much....mike

It is true

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by djson1

I would still pick the UDA ball. After reading about all the horror stories on here, I don't think I would ever even buy a Mantle ball without UDA, unless another company like Steiner did Mantle balls, which I don't think they did (somebody can correct me here). But I think the % of fake Mantle balls out there are just too high....I'd stick with something reliable like UDA.

Plus, recently I saw a bunch of Koufax balls authenticated by PSA and JSA and they were all bogus sigs. My confidence in their opinions is just getting worse and worse as the years go on.

Thanks, jason. Would you ever purchase a Mantle ball based on your own evaluation of hiis sig? Or would you require a coa?

Also, on the Koufax balls, are you saying they were bogus based on your own evaluation or was this publicly acknowledged by psa?

Thanks, for sharing your thoughts!

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by ATP

No dog at all in this fight, but you quote you bought a few psa and jsa mantles when you were still learning, so why berate someone in a similar position. As an aside, to the OP, if you find a Mantle ball you really like, not authenticated, and want reassurance, pm me and I can tell you almost with certainty if it is real. You will probably get a steal of a price too as non authenticated mantles sell all the time on ebay for low prices.

Thank you so much for the offer. If i find one, i'll take you up.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Clueless

Thanks, jason. Would you ever purchase a Mantle ball based on your own evaluation of hiis sig? Or would you require a coa?

Also, on the Koufax balls, are you saying they were bogus based on your own evaluation or was this publicly acknowledged by psa?

Thanks, for sharing your thoughts!

If I ever get to the point where I feel comfortable in determining authentic Mantles, I may purchase one. But I already have a few from the '80s that I got in person (photos), so, I think I'm good for now. Plus, I was never a big Mantle guy anyways.

Regarding the Koufax balls...I'm saying they were bogus based on my own evaluation. There are certain known forged or secretarials of Koufax and I've seen PSA and JSA certs on them quite often.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by djson1

If I ever get to the point where I feel comfortable in determining authentic Mantles, I may purchase one. But I already have a few from the '80s that I got in person (photos), so, I think I'm good for now. Plus, I was never a big Mantle guy anyways.

Regarding the Koufax balls...I'm saying they were bogus based on my own evaluation. There are certain known forged or secretarials of Koufax and I've seen PSA and JSA certs on them quite often.

Can you send me some scans of the balls you think are bad or put them on the net.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Scott that was my question for you guys. I had always heard that the bobby brown bals some of them were flawed due to leather being processed in non distilled water. I was wondering from you guys if you belive this to be true as well. thanks. And was definatly not ignoreing you. Value your opionion very much....mike

Mike, Shelly has said "it is true", so there's our answer, and it makes sense. When I attempted to flatten the leather panels I removed from a '56 baseball, I was told by a leather expert that I should use distilled water.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Can you send me some scans of the balls you think are bad or put them on the net.

Here's one style that I see often offered on internet auctions. I know that some may think it was a rushed Koufax...but even if it IS a rushed signature, why would anybody buy it when there are so many better examples available? This one comes with a JSA cert.

https://pristineauction.com/a209548-...-JSA-ALOA.html

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Mike, Shelly has said "it is true", so there's our answer, and it makes sense. When I attempted to flatten the leather panels I removed from a '56 baseball, I was told by a leather expert that I should use distilled water.

I came accross an article years back on internet about it was due to like a 6 year period of production in Haiti that they didnt use distilled water that aided in this problem. and im talking more like toning splotches more than I am talking about a natural leather aging. The splotches I have on some of my balls from that time period look like light patches here and there on balls. And I have never handled them or had them in direct sunlight. This is a pretty good thread we have kept going for sure

[shelly]

Jason, I went at look at the most resent steiner. I am sorry to say that I think age has become a factor and he signiture really has changed for the worst.

[w7imel]

Try pitching a ball a million times in a lifetime im guessing anyones hands would shake. I saw John Elway on tv after retirement his hand seemed to shake as well as he said he cant lift his throwing arm above shoulder height. The price these atheletes bodies pay is unreal

[packs]

When I got Koufax in person at spring training this year there was a real crush for him. It's hard to sign in that environment. The Steiner balls don't look too bad to me. There's something weird about the flow in them though. My ball might be sloppy but it's got some style. The Steiners look stiff.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Jason, I went at look at the most resent steiner. I am sorry to say that I think age has become a factor and he signiture really has changed for the worst.

Shelly, If the one I posted is authentic, then I'm surprised it deteriorated so quickly....but personally, I still wouldn't buy one that looks like the one I posted above. Koufax' signature (at least up until a couple of years ago) looked much better than this. If his hand has gotten that bad, that's really a shame as he had one of the nicer signatures IMO.
I guess the same has happened to Hank Aaron's as well. I never realized it got so bad until a few years ago.

[shelly]

I am not saying I like that autograph. I am saying it is getting harder to figure if it is good or not. Here is a steiner piece.

$_1.JPG

[Clueless]

For those recommending one gets familiar with an autograph and purchase w/o some sort of coa, read this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.759026

I don't have that kind of confidence if joe montana can't even tell his own signaturevfrom a forgery.

[jbhofmann]

As a 10 year old kid I went to a show at the Cincy Gardens and got Mantle ($50) on a Bobby Brown Haiti ball. It has never shown any toning.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Clueless

For those recommending one gets familiar with an autograph and purchase w/o some sort of coa, read this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/...ticle-1.759026

I don't have that kind of confidence if joe montana can't even tell his own signaturevfrom a forgery.

But then again, that's why you can't rely on those TPAs...since those guys opinions aren't any better (and in many cases, worse) than your's or mine. At least with UDA, Steiner, etc,there's a better chance the sigs were signed in front of somebody ethical (at least we're led to believe so).

By the way, I know that article is old, but I read this part and was amazed:
"..Or how he would find just the right combination of insects to come up with an ageless ink." ....Holy crap...I didn't know they used insects to come up with a vintage looking ink! Really amazing....

[packs]

Here's another one of the toned balls I was talking about. This Whitey is coincidentally also a Bobby Brown. Maybe it is a defect in certain Brown balls:

White Ford

Also spotted this Shantz but I can't see the president stamp:

Bobby Shantz

Edited to add there's no Haiti mark on the Ford one.

[Runscott]

Thanks. I have never seen such a thing, but I don't collect single-signed balls, so probably wouldn't notice most of them.

Horrible stuff - wouldn't own it.

[packs]

What's annoying about the toning is there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason or even timeline of when it'll happen. I have a Cepeda ball that I sent to him through the mail. He signed it in black ink and it was beautiful. Now years later it has brown spots all over it and the ink is nearly faded away.

Will have to check the president stamp next time I'm at my parents house. I have a Koufax with some spotting too that I think is a Coleman.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by packs

What's annoying about the toning is there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason or even timeline of when it'll happen. I have a Cepeda ball that I sent to him through the mail. He signed it in black ink and it was beautiful. Now years later it has brown spots all over it and the ink is nearly faded away.

Will have to check the president stamp next time I'm at my parents house. I have a Koufax with some spotting too that I think is a Coleman.

It had to do with the Hati balls. Most of them had even toneing through out the ball in the last two years it bcame splotges very dark and ugly do to the water that was used.